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both often underplayed and undervalued, both some with crazy highs. who walks away here? empty, unbreakable planet is the bf.

Starbrand crushes her into paste. She was the most pathetic Phoenix Force host ever.

It's the truth though. Toward the end, even Hickman's Starbrand started getting a lot of love. His showing vs the avatars of Eternity's children was monstrous. We know he operates on at least a planetary level too. He's so far beyond her it's not even funny.

Rachel.

Starbrands are planetary level defence mechanisms with power to protect against planetary threats:


https://imgur.com/R1AJZtC


As such other planets within the Marvel Universe have their own Starbrands. They are imbued with planetary scale power in order to defend their assigned world:

https://imgur.com/OuRDkUQ

Rachel was the most stable Phoenix as her access to the Force was limited by the Force. So she was never intoxicated by infinite power, she was just able to draw on a limited pool which made thigs more manageable for her. (A plot device so that she could be a team mainstay. I suspect it will be a similar situation for whichever Avenger is chosen as the new Phoenix. They'll have varying showings and be a deus ex machina)

This means that as a Phoenix she was never particularly impressive so a matchup with Starbrand isnt as ridiculous as it 1st sounds.

Given Phoenix Rachels handling of heralds (who themselves have planetary scale power and similar feats to Starbrands) id place Rachel Phoenix above heralds/Starbrand level and on par with a skyfather. Same as Logan Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rachel.

Starbrands are planetary level defence mechanisms with power to protect against planetary threats:


https://imgur.com/R1AJZtC


As such other planets within the Marvel Universe have their own Starbrands. They are imbued with planetary scale power in order to defend their assigned world:

https://imgur.com/OuRDkUQ

Rachel was the most stable Phoenix as her access to the Force was limited by the Force. So she was never intoxicated by infinite power, she was just able to draw on a limited pool which made thigs more manageable for her. (A plot device so that she could be a team mainstay. I suspect it will be a similar situation for whichever Avenger is chosen as the new Phoenix. They'll have varying showings and be a deus ex machina)

This means that as a Phoenix she was never particularly impressive so a matchup with Starbrand isnt as ridiculous as it 1st sounds.

Given Phoenix Rachels handling of heralds (who themselves have planetary scale power and similar feats to Starbrands) id place Rachel Phoenix above heralds/Starbrand level and on par with a skyfather. Same as Logan Phoenix.

I always thought it was funny that even with Rachel's experience, Teen Jean still trumped her and she couldn't figure her out. Like, imo As far as " "users" are concerned after Jean Hope Summers is a better Phoenix avatar than Rachel.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I always thought it was funny that even with Rachel's experience, Teen Jean still trumped her and she couldn't figure her out. Like, imo As far as " "users" are concerned after Jean Hope Summers is a better Phoenix avatar than Rachel.

Thats tough to accurately judge as Hope only had the Phoenix for a few pages and despite having the Iron Fist power to bring her calm and order she still nearly lost control of the Force before Scarlet Witch had to step in and help her dissipate the power.

But then you could argue that there were times that Rachel almost lost control even with limited access.

But then as said in Endsong a fraction of infinity is still infinity so Rachel did well to maintain control consistently over such an extended period regardless.

Who knows. Interesting topic though.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Rachel.

Starbrands are planetary level defence mechanisms with power to protect against planetary threats:


https://imgur.com/R1AJZtC


As such other planets within the Marvel Universe have their own Starbrands. They are imbued with planetary scale power in order to defend their assigned world:

https://imgur.com/OuRDkUQ

Rachel was the most stable Phoenix as her access to the Force was limited by the Force. So she was never intoxicated by infinite power, she was just able to draw on a limited pool which made thigs more manageable for her. (A plot device so that she could be a team mainstay. I suspect it will be a similar situation for whichever Avenger is chosen as the new Phoenix. They'll have varying showings and be a deus ex machina)

This means that as a Phoenix she was never particularly impressive so a matchup with Starbrand isnt as ridiculous as it 1st sounds.

Given Phoenix Rachels handling of heralds (who themselves have planetary scale power and similar feats to Starbrands) id place Rachel Phoenix above heralds/Starbrand level and on par with a skyfather. Same as Logan Phoenix.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats tough to accurately judge as Hope only had the Phoenix for a few pages and despite having the Iron Fist power to bring her calm and order she still nearly lost control of the Force before Scarlet Witch had to step in and help her dissipate the power.

But then you could argue that there were times that Rachel almost lost control even with limited access.

But then as said in Endsong a fraction of infinity is still infinity so Rachel did well to maintain control consistently over such an extended period regardless.

Who knows. Interesting topic though.

only reason i said Hope was better because she has achieved the highest level we have seen so far and Rachel NEVER has. Even with her training wheels. Rachel was basically a puppet/substitute for the Phoenix Force while Jean was out of the picture. It only connected to her well because she was related to Jean and because of plot purposes. That was evident when Jean was able to take it from her from the White Hot Room and she said "Not now mom". Granted, given Rachel's powerset, if they gave her great character development, she could become OP. But given that Jean is the resident psychic for Marvel, thats probably not gon happen. Hell, even Quentin gives her a run for her money.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
Thats tough to accurately judge as Hope only had the Phoenix for a few pages and despite having the Iron Fist power to bring her calm and order she still nearly lost control of the Force before Scarlet Witch had to step in and help her dissipate the power.

But then you could argue that there were times that Rachel almost lost control even with limited access.

But then as said in Endsong a fraction of infinity is still infinity so Rachel did well to maintain control consistently over such an extended period regardless.

Who knows. Interesting topic though.

Do you also see those same Heralds being able to take on Thor, Hulk, and Hyperion simultaneously? Kevin as an inexperienced Starbrand user took them on with what appeared to be casual ease.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
only reason i said Hope was better because she has achieved the highest level we have seen so far and Rachel NEVER has. Even with her training wheels. Rachel was basically a puppet/substitute for the Phoenix Force while Jean was out of the picture. It only connected to her well because she was related to Jean and because of plot purposes. That was evident when Jean was able to take it from her from the White Hot Room and she said "Not now mom". Granted, given Rachel's powerset, if they gave her great character development, she could become OP. But given that Jean is the resident psychic for Marvel, thats probably not gon happen. Hell, even Quentin gives her a run for her money.

No-Girl has had more page time than Rachel lol

The Starbrand should be bumped up above the High Herald tier. It says that it is a planetary defense weapon, but a being as powerful as Galactus could also be used as a planetary defense weapon. This does not mean that we would automatically classify said being as a High Herald level character.

Kevin took on beings well above that weight class, and when he did take on High Heralds he easily held his own.

i agree it should be higher, just not sure how high or where it's power would tap out. at one time it was super uber. in its more recent incarnation it was never very well defined. too bad. i always liked the starbrand. one of the few good series during that "new universe" debacle. also liked justice.

the same could be said for Phoenix Force, it's source power is much bigger than starbrand

it's the nexus of all psionic energy which has existed or will ever exist in the multiverse

Rachel has way more impressive showings than Kevin, that's not debatable

Does she really? Like which ones?

Originally posted by MrMind
Rachel has way more impressive showings than Kevin, that's not debatable
Wait, what? Newbie Starbrand was taking on the Avengers. A slightly more experienced Starbrand took on a living star. Then later he held his own vs the avatars of 3 universal level abstracts.

Rachel gets curbstomped.

overpowering post retcon beyonder for starter

I don’t recsll it going down that way. I’ll check on that.

beating a hungry galactus

Originally posted by zopzop
A slightly more experienced Starbrand took on a living star.
Blue Phoenix Echo Rachel did that too though, and that form has less power to draw from than her Phoenix form.

was going to bring up echo rachel...

serious question zop--what makes you think the 3 avatars were really all that powerful? i'm not at all sure i could see kevin doing in even a hungry galactus like rachel did.... she was just toying with him essentially, and gave no indication that she was anywhere near maxxing out.

entropy helped genis killing eternity

genis shot entropy in the head and thus created an entire multiverse

Originally posted by zopzop
She fought Pre-Retcon Beyonder and she took him on with the power he gave her.



was that pre-retcon? my memory is fuzzy, SW2 tie-in?

Originally posted by MrMind
entropy helped genis killing eternity

genis shot entropy in the head and thus created an entire multiverse

where was this?

and yeah, it was pre-retcon beyonder. swii tie in. uncanny 203. but i think she was amped in that beyonder showing, maybe. i'll have to go back and look at it.

Originally posted by leonidas
where was this?

and yeah, it was pre-retcon beyonder. swii tie in. uncanny 203. but i think she was amped in that beyonder showing, maybe. i'll have to go back and look at it.

it was in that run where genis became a mad god

Originally posted by leonidas


was going to bring up echo rachel...
Yeah, I was wondering if we could only use feats from that era. Rachel has always been a weird one, since she sometimes gets better feats despite being in a "weaker" form.

Originally posted by zopzop

Did she win? Because Kevin did. Doesn't matter as this wasn't even his best showing. Him vs 3 avatars of Eternity's children takes the cake (they were playing for keeps and wanted him dead).
It was interrupted unfortunately, and we didnt get to see much.

Yet another thing a Vulcan arc robbed us of.

Originally posted by leonidas
serious question zop--what makes you think the 3 avatars were really all that powerful? i'm not at all sure i could see kevin doing in even a hungry galactus like rachel did.... she was just toying with him essentially, and gave no indication that she was anywhere near maxxing out.
One of the three abstracts empowering it's avatar was Entropy, the very same Entropy that took Eternity's place when he and Genis killed the previous Eternity.
https://i.postimg.cc/4m3zJ6MP/5773706-2490349-2.png
And that's just ONE of the abstracts that wanted to kill Starbrand.
Originally posted by MrMind
was that pre-retcon? my memory is fuzzy, SW2 tie-in?
Yes, it was an issue of the X-Men SWII tie in. He amped her though and she was feeding him his power back.
https://i.postimg.cc/ZC0dkTBD/uncanny-x-men-203-021.jpg

Originally posted by zopzop
She fought Pre-Retcon Beyonder and she took him on with the power he gave her.

Don't recall this incident. If it happened in the 80s it would be taking place in the New Universe. It wasn't until the 90s that the Starbrand entered the mainstream Marvel universe.

Did she win? Because Kevin did. Doesn't matter as this wasn't even his best showing. Him vs 3 avatars of Eternity's children takes the cake (they were playing for keeps and wanted him dead).

Pardon the error. I think that it was actually in the 90's, as Greg Capullo was sketching Quasar at that time. I'm not certain what the guys name was but he had a domed helmet on, and was in several of the books which described a powerful armada and needing a defense against it. I'm sorry, but this happened a while ago.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
I always thought it was funny that even with Rachel's experience, Teen Jean still trumped her and she couldn't figure her out. Like, imo As far as " "users" are concerned after Jean Hope Summers is a better Phoenix avatar than Rachel.
What do you mean? Rachel was only telepath who didn't get punked by Teen Jean. She was beating Xavier Jr. too, who Teen Jean needed 3 other psychics and help from several X-Men for.
Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
only reason i said Hope was better because she has achieved the highest level we have seen so far and Rachel NEVER has. Even with her training wheels. Rachel was basically a puppet/substitute for the Phoenix Force while Jean was out of the picture. It only connected to her well because she was related to Jean and because of plot purposes. That was evident when Jean was able to take it from her from the White Hot Room and she said "Not now mom". Granted, given Rachel's powerset, if they gave her great character development, she could become OP. But given that Jean is the resident psychic for Marvel, thats probably not gon happen. Hell, even Quentin gives her a run for her money.
Quentin blew himself out against just Rachel's mental defense. She should be emphatically above him.

As for these comments about her appearances, she's actually a headliner or regular across multiple books. They all just happen to be really slow. The Krakoan era requires lots of set up and world building in the main title, so we get a lot of scenes like this.
https://postimg.cc/PNYYDDN3
https://postimg.cc/qzGKbds2
https://postimg.cc/jLTN4j7s

Where they just explain a bunch of stuff. We're only just now revisiting the X-23/Synch/Darwin investigation into the Children of the Vault situation(A storyline I'm excited about).

Rachel may be able to win against Kevin, I doubt it, but depending on the wielder, the Starbrand is capable of granting infinite power. I believe that Kevin has the best feats overall.

Originally posted by StyleTime
What do you mean? Rachel was only telepath who didn't get punked by Teen Jean. She was beating Xavier Jr. too, who Teen Jean needed 3 other psychics and help from several X-Men for.

Quentin blew himself out against just Rachel's mental defense. She should be emphatically above him.

As for these comments about her appearances, she's actually a headliner or regular across multiple books. They all just happen to be really slow. The Krakoan era requires lots of set up and world building in the main title, so we get a lot of scenes like this.
https://postimg.cc/PNYYDDN3
https://postimg.cc/qzGKbds2
https://postimg.cc/jLTN4j7s

Where they just explain a bunch of stuff. We're only just now revisiting the X-23/Synch/Darwin investigation into the Children of the Vault situation(A storyline I'm excited about).

u right. But she's definitely not stronger. She was more trained than teen jean
But had Vulcan and mesmero mind raping her ass

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
u right. But she's definitely not stronger. She was more trained than teen jean
But had Vulcan and mesmero mind raping her ass
Now that we know Teen Jean is Adult Jean, yeah sure, Rachel is weaker (by direct comparison to Adult Jean at least). It wasn't that way at the start though. And Marvel has adopted this power scaling approach for Jean vs Rachel it seems. Rachel could telepathically kill every abstract across the multiverse, and Jean would just get scaled to outrank her.

That second part is Vulcan fanfiction though. An amped Vulcan got off a free energy manipulation attack on an unaware Rachel. There was no mental battle. In fact, as I posted in the other thread, Vulcan kept Oracle specifically to protect from Rachel's telepathy for their subsequent encounters.

https://postimg.cc/s1P11vyh

Mesmero, meh. He specifically mentioned her powers were in flux, which made her vulnerable. She'd just gotten out of a coma, and was still going through changes from her synaptic upgrades. They said telepathy in that arc, but he's a hypnotist, which has always existed in a weird place mentally. Think Universo vs Saturn Girl, or Sauron doing the googly eyes on telepaths.

Originally posted by StyleTime
Now that we know Teen Jean is Adult Jean, yeah sure, Rachel is weaker (by direct comparison to Adult Jean at least). It wasn't that way at the start though. And Marvel has adopted this power scaling approach for Jean vs Rachel it seems. Rachel could telepathically kill every abstract across the multiverse, and Jean would just get scaled to outrank her.

That second part is Vulcan fanfiction though. An amped Vulcan got off a free energy manipulation attack on an unaware Rachel. There was no mental battle. In fact, as I posted in the other thread, Vulcan kept Oracle specifically to protect from Rachel's telepathy for their subsequent encounters.

https://postimg.cc/s1P11vyh

Mesmero, meh. He specifically mentioned her powers were in flux, which made her vulnerable. She'd just gotten out of a coma, and was still going through changes from her synaptic upgrades. They said telepathy in that arc, but he's a hypnotist, which has always existed in a weird place mentally. Think Universo vs Saturn Girl, or Sauron doing the googly eyes on telepaths.

To be fair, Jean is basically the resident telepath for Marvel so no one can really touch her. That was evident before the whole ridiculous Phoenix Force retcon. She was originally Phoenix, which was her peak.

Originally posted by zopzop
Wait, what? Newbie Starbrand was taking on the Avengers. A slightly more experienced Starbrand took on a living star. Then later he held his own vs the avatars of 3 universal level abstracts.

Rachel gets curbstomped.

The entities then got thwarted directly by Nightmask who simply re-directed their power

Youre making assumptions about how powerful the avatars are based on their power source. Thats not a useful exercise. It doesnt translate to anything concrete.

Beyond that battle against avatars of unknown power levels when you weigh up what this current Starbrand has done vs Rachel in her stint as the Phoenix it just doesnt compare.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The entities then got thwarted directly by Nightmask who simply re-directed their power

Youre making assumptions about how powerful the avatars are based on their power source. Thats not a useful exercise. It doesnt translate to anything concrete.

Beyond that battle against avatars of unknown power levels when you weigh up what this current Starbrand has done vs Rachel in her stint as the Phoenix it just doesnt compare.

How doesn't it compare? I believe that Graviton was one of those Avatars that were used, and he was amped by one of those Abstract beings. Kevin also effortlessly held his own against Thor, Hyperion, and the Hulk while only being in possession of the Brand for at least 8 hours. The Starbrand is also an Infinite power that is only limited by it's users imagination.

So let's look at exactly what Rachel did again that surpasses those Avatars amplified by the Abstract beings. What did she do?

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
The entities then got thwarted directly by Nightmask who simply re-directed their power

Youre making assumptions about how powerful the avatars are based on their power source. Thats not a useful exercise. It doesnt translate to anything concrete.

Beyond that battle against avatars of unknown power levels when you weigh up what this current Starbrand has done vs Rachel in her stint as the Phoenix it just doesnt compare.
You got to remember GS that those abstracts wanted the Starbrand dead and they weren't playing around.

Originally posted by zopzop
You got to remember GS that those abstracts wanted the Starbrand dead and they weren't playing around.

How powerful an avatar is is entirely dependant on the host body. Avatars do not equal the entirety of what they're hosting and intentions do not equate to feats.

Just because these abstracts wanted Starbrand dead and empowered these random villains to achieve their means does not justify anyone making out that Starbrand was therefore holding his own against 3 Abstract level beings. Thats nonsense.

Starbrand faced off against 3 villains whose powers were enhanced by an Abstract to an unspecified degree. Outside of the battle said avatars have ZERO feats and during said battle the collateral damage was not in keeping with the power levels you are asserting these avatars had.

They did about as much damage as a typical X-men scrap lol

Starbrand raised his hand and made an entire armada turn and run. Your entire stance seems bent on invalidating feats that Starbrand completed, while saying nothing about why Rachel should defeat an infinite power.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
How powerful an avatar is is entirely dependant on the host body. Avatars do not equal the entirety of what they're hosting and intentions do not equate to feats.

Just because these abstracts wanted Starbrand dead and empowered these random villains to achieve their means does not justify anyone making out that Starbrand was therefore holding his own against 3 Abstract level beings. Thats nonsense.

Starbrand faced off against 3 villains whose powers were enhanced by an Abstract to an unspecified degree. Outside of the battle said avatars have ZERO feats and during said battle the collateral damage was not in keeping with the power levels you are asserting these avatars had.

They did about as much damage as a typical X-men scrap lol
We never judge battles or power output based on collateral damage. Pre Retcon Beyonder's 'billion dimension slagging' blast aimed at MM didn't even destroy Marsha's couch!

Zop how about you turn it around. Begin pulling up Rachel's feats and blunders at the hands of ancient aliens mind raping her. GS' entire stance is to invalidate the Starbrand, while saying very little about the little firebird.

Originally posted by Stoic
How doesn't it compare? I believe that Graviton was one of those Avatars that were used, and he was amped by one of those Abstract beings. Kevin also effortlessly held his own against Thor, Hyperion, and the Hulk while only being in possession of the Brand for at least 8 hours. The Starbrand is also an Infinite power that is only limited by it's users imagination.

An impressive showing for Kevin. But he was lashing out in panic and fear with zero control against beings who were simply trying to contain/restrain him.

Im very well infromed regarding the StarBrand which is why I am debating on. There are levels of infinity, tiers of unlimited power. That same reference has been applied to omega level mutants, to Galactus, to cosmic cubes and yet there are beings more powerful than these I've mentioned. What im getting at is that term alone holds little weight without practical demonstration.



Originally posted by Stoic
So let's look at exactly what Rachel did again that surpasses those Avatars amplified by the Abstract beings. What did she do?

Youre asking the wrong question here entirely. Said avatars did nothing but battle Starbrand en masse. What you should be asking is what has Rachel done thats more impressive than Kevin?

No problem

Made defeating herald level beings out to kill her look like childs play and then knocked the sh*t out of Galactus:

https://imgur.com/Vfc2KGk

https://imgur.com/5WXgCAR

https://imgur.com/oSxCPYa

https://imgur.com/xKkVoAm

Overloaded a world eater that tried to consume her power

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Battling and dominating the global scale reality warper Alfie O Meagan like he was nothing before incinerating him:

https://imgur.com/dEcXpSG

https://imgur.com/uEBuZD2

https://imgur.com/SAXZRBW

https://imgur.com/6v5F3Nz

https://imgur.com/eQbQ9C3

https://imgur.com/s2vrnAq


Holding her own against a crazed Phoenix host who can juggle moons and create stars:

https://imgur.com/ugyt0rt

https://imgur.com/kqaP1f8

https://imgur.com/fxNkFW1

https://imgur.com/5fXPdBE


Rachel is on another level to the feats displayed by Kevin.

The 3 avatars of the abstracts had unspecified power levels. You cannot use the fact that Kevin held his own against them to equate his power to anywhere near an Abstracts. A host does not equate to what it represents. We know how a host measures up based on its on panel showings.

Originally posted by zopzop
We never judge battles or power output based on collateral damage. Pre Retcon Beyonder's 'billion dimension slagging' blast aimed at MM didn't even destroy Marsha's couch!

We also dont equate a host or avatar to the power they represent. We measure a hosts ability based on demonstrated feats.

Said avatars have zero feats beyond battling Kevin. You cant then uplift Kevin to abstract level when you dont know how powerful those avatars are.

Thats ridiculous. Youre too intelligent for that line of argument.

This ABC logic the forum seems to love in recent times belongs in the trash can.

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An impressive showing for Kevin. But he was lashing out in panic and fear with zero control against beings who were simply trying to contain/restrain him.

Im very well infromed regarding the StarBrand which is why I am debating on. There are levels of infinity, tiers of unlimited power. That same reference has been applied to omega level mutants, to Galactus, to cosmic cubes and yet there are beings more powerful than these I've mentioned. What im getting at is that term alone holds little weight without practical demonstration.





Youre asking the wrong question here entirely. Said avatars did nothing but battle Starbrand en masse. What you should be asking is what has Rachel done thats more impressive than Kevin?

No problem

Made defeating herald level beings out to kill her look like childs play and then knocked the sh*t out of Galactus:

https://imgur.com/Vfc2KGk

https://imgur.com/5WXgCAR

https://imgur.com/oSxCPYa

https://imgur.com/xKkVoAm

Overloaded a world eater that tried to consume her power

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Battling and dominating the global scale reality warper Alfie O Meagan like he was nothing before incinerating him:

https://imgur.com/dEcXpSG

https://imgur.com/uEBuZD2

https://imgur.com/SAXZRBW

https://imgur.com/6v5F3Nz

https://imgur.com/eQbQ9C3

https://imgur.com/s2vrnAq


Holding her own against a crazed Phoenix host who can juggle moons and create stars:

https://imgur.com/ugyt0rt

https://imgur.com/kqaP1f8

https://imgur.com/fxNkFW1

https://imgur.com/5fXPdBE


Rachel is on another level to the feats displayed by Kevin.

The 3 avatars of the abstracts had unspecified power levels. You cannot use the fact that Kevin held his own against them to equate his power to anywhere near an Abstracts. A host does not equate to what it represents. We know how a host measures up based on its on panel showings.

So, average Phoenix hosts are what, above herald level?

Originally posted by Stoic
Zop how about you turn it around. Begin pulling up Rachel's feats and blunders at the hands of ancient aliens mind raping her. GS' entire stance is to invalidate the Starbrand, while saying very little about the little firebird.

Bro relax yourself. You were being ignored until i could be bothered to upload scans to imgur.

I debate in threads where I have sufficient knowledge to bring something meaningful to the table. So rest assured if im popping up you will not be catching me out on anything.

Originally posted by AlbertoJohnAvil
So, average Phoenix hosts are what, above herald level?

Average operating levels for Rachel as Phoenix were herald level and when needed to scaled up somewhere between that and Galactus level. She wasnt an impressive host. :/

Originally posted by GalacticStorm
An impressive showing for Kevin. But he was lashing out in panic and fear with zero control against beings who were simply trying to contain/restrain him.

Im very well infromed regarding the StarBrand which is why I am debating on. There are levels of infinity, tiers of unlimited power. That same reference has been applied to omega level mutants, to Galactus, to cosmic cubes and yet there are beings more powerful than these I've mentioned. What im getting at is that term alone holds little weight without practical demonstration.





Youre asking the wrong question here entirely. Said avatars did nothing but battle Starbrand en masse. What you should be asking is what has Rachel done thats more impressive than Kevin?

No problem

Made defeating herald level beings out to kill her look like childs play and then knocked the sh*t out of Galactus:

https://imgur.com/Vfc2KGk

https://imgur.com/5WXgCAR

https://imgur.com/oSxCPYa

https://imgur.com/xKkVoAm

Overloaded a world eater that tried to consume her power

https://imgur.com/VBJjHde

https://imgur.com/m1WIAmW

Battling and dominating the global scale reality warper Alfie O Meagan like he was nothing before incinerating him:

https://imgur.com/dEcXpSG

https://imgur.com/uEBuZD2

https://imgur.com/SAXZRBW

https://imgur.com/6v5F3Nz

https://imgur.com/eQbQ9C3

https://imgur.com/s2vrnAq


Holding her own against a crazed Phoenix host who can juggle moons and create stars:

https://imgur.com/ugyt0rt

https://imgur.com/kqaP1f8

https://imgur.com/fxNkFW1

https://imgur.com/5fXPdBE


Rachel is on another level to the feats displayed by Kevin.

The 3 avatars of the abstracts had unspecified power levels. You cannot use the fact that Kevin held his own against them to equate his power to anywhere near an Abstracts. A host does not equate to what it represents. We know how a host measures up based on its on panel showings.

Not seeing how any of those feats are above even the most inexperienced Starbrand user. You claimed that the Starbrand grants at best Herald level power, and I cited an inexperienced Starbrand user (Kevin) effortlessly holding his own against 3 Herald level beings within the first few hours of possessing the Starbrand. Not to mention that the Starbrand grants its user infinite power which is only limited to it's users imagination. You then refuse to acknowledge this information, and continue onward without acknowledging these facts. It's like I mentioned earlier, you've taken a stance that you assume allows you to invalidate facts.

Kevin simply raised his hand, and an entire armada of space battle cruisers fled. Read Hickman's Avengers. Kevin is well above High Herald, and posseses the power of a Cosmic Abstract being.

You know I completely forgot about the Alfie fight. He is indeed a powerful reality warper and she floored him. But still on average, she was a horrible PF host that's why I say Kevin would break her.