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I think we should try to be polite to others, and we should forgive others for the rudeness or transgressions they do unto us, but only to a degree. I do not believe that you have to be without sin to cast a stone, so to speak, or that you need to have your room in perfect order before you criticize the world. We should all try to contribute to the narratives of this world, and ideally not in a way that creates more hate, anger, sadness and suffering.

Originally posted by Artol
I think we should try to be polite to others, and we should forgive others for the rudeness or transgressions they do unto us, but only to a degree. I do not believe that you have to be without sin to cast a stone, so to speak, or that you need to have your room in perfect order before you criticize the world. We should all try to contribute to the narratives of this world, and ideally not in a way that creates more hate, anger, sadness and suffering. Her solution and I wish I'd posted the link was echo chambers. Distancing herself from people who didn't share her values. I am not keen on that and I agree we should confront what we disagree with mate. Especially when abhorrent, I also agree, do it with civility. That was the mistake the right made in the US and sadly haven't made in the UK. Boris remains affable, Trump never was. Even though the rhetoric from both on things like race is usually similar.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Her solution and I wish I'd posted the link was echo chambers. Distancing herself from people who didn't share her values. I am not keen on that and I agree we should confront what we disagree with mate. Especially when abhorrent, I also agree, do it with civility. That was the mistake the right made in the US and sadly haven't made in the UK. Boris remains affable, Trump never was. Even though the rhetoric from both on things like race is usually similar.

When you say the right do you mean the republican party ? Because those people are commies to me.

Originally posted by ilikecomics
When you say the right do you mean the republican party ? Because those people are commies to me.

Whirly, with all due respect, it sounds like you're trying to make this an anti-trump thread.

Originally posted by Blakemore
Whirly, with all due respect, it sounds like you're trying to make this an anti-trump thread. Not at all, I am just surprised how Boris is getting awY with the same things purely through his more affable (fake) demeanour. Boris is better at this whole game than Trump, whilst equally extreme.

I don't trust BoJo all that much, but I trust him more than the alternatives...

We might have a soft brexit, but it'll still be a step in the right direction for britain to have better deals with the commonwealth.

...and europe.

Originally posted by Blakemore
I don't trust BoJo all that much, but I trust him more than the alternatives...

We might have a soft brexit, but it'll still be a step in the right direction for britain to have better deals with the commonwealth.

...and europe. we need more deals period!

But who else could be better?

Originally posted by Blakemore
But who else could be better? a road sweeper, dustman, anyone really

I don't trust Starmer.

Originally posted by Blakemore
I don't trust Starmer. Director of DPP means he has held a difficult job. He did O.K. too. But he isn't a fave of mine.

Agreed, the judgmentalism against (Rightful current) President Donald Trump has been overblown.

Still not impressed. Plus there are so many members on the front bench that I can't stand.

Honestly, Lisa Nandy would've been the best choice.

Civility is not the cure to division, it is the cause.

Civility allows people to be polite in their speech, but radical in their beliefs. It creates a culture of duplicity, in which people say one thing in public, but do another in private.

They never share their beliefs, so they never have to examine or defend them. They cloister in insular communities, and scapegoat everyone outside of them.

The one good thing that came of the Trump presidency is that it got all of the bigots to feel comfortable enough to say the silent part out loud. They revealed themselves for who we all knew they were all along but pretended not to be.

The cure to division is radical honesty and accountability. We are not going to pretend that one man's ignorance is equal to another man's knoweldged anymore. That is over.

The "facts over feelings" crowd needs to be presented with the facts, and shut down. We are not debating the merits of their conspiracies against reality. This is what is true, this is what is going to happen, end of discussion.

Stupid people need to stop being coddled, and allowed to have "alternative facts," and alternative media, and separate divorced-from-reality realities.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Civility is not the cure to division, it is the cause.

Civility allows people to be polite in their speech, but radical in their beliefs. It creates a culture of duplicity, in which people say one thing in public, but do another in private.

They never share their beliefs, so they never have to examine or defend them. They cloister in insular communities, and scapegoat everyone outside of them.

The one good thing that came of the Trump presidency is that it got all of the bigots to feel comfortable enough to say the silent part out loud. They revealed themselves for who we all knew they were all along but pretended not to be.

The cure to division is radical honesty and accountability. We are not going to pretend that one man's ignorance is equal to another man's knoweldged anymore. That is over.

The "facts over feelings" crowd needs to be presented with the facts, and shut down. We are not debating the merits of their conspiracies against reality. This is what is true, this is what is going to happen, end of discussion.

Stupid people need to stop being coddled, and allowed to have "alternative facts," and alternative media, and separate divorced-from-reality realities. A very interesting post Adam, It made me think. I actually agree about the empowering of the bigots giving them the confidence to show themselves. We see them now, but they still don't see what's wrong in what they are saying surely only polite discourse can hope to do that. I don't think confrontation can, but, I do think sometimes we are morally bound to confront. Quite the dichotomy tbh mate.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
A very interesting post Adam, It made me think. I actually agree about the empowering of the bigots giving them the confidence to show themselves. We see them now, but they still don't see what's wrong in what they are saying surely only polite discourse can hope to do that. I don't think confrontation can, but, I do think sometimes we are morally bound to confront. Quite the dichotomy tbh mate.

A good example of this is the Atheist Experience Internet television program. People call-in, and explain what they believe and why. So many people hold unexamined beliefs, and abandon them after having to defend them on air. But it is confronting their beliefs head-on that incites the change. If the hosts just said, "I do not care what you believe if it makes you happy," or "I do not agree with your beliefs but I respect them," that would not happen. Because it gives bad beliefs the conceptual space to exist and fester. And our thoughts become our words, become our actions, become our habits, become our character. It is all fruit of the same poisonous tree, and it all starts by allowing the seed to take root and grow.

But Adan, who is insince?


Certainly not Donald Trump. He is many things, but two faced isn't one of them.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
Her solution and I wish I'd posted the link was echo chambers. Distancing herself from people who didn't share her values. I am not keen on that and I agree we should confront what we disagree with mate. Especially when abhorrent, I also agree, do it with civility. That was the mistake the right made in the US and sadly haven't made in the UK. Boris remains affable, Trump never was. Even though the rhetoric from both on things like race is usually similar.

Who the **** things Boris is affable? He's a ****.

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Civility is not the cure to division, it is the cause.

Civility allows people to be polite in their speech, but radical in their beliefs. It creates a culture of duplicity, in which people say one thing in public, but do another in private.

They never share their beliefs, so they never have to examine or defend them. They cloister in insular communities, and scapegoat everyone outside of them.

The one good thing that came of the Trump presidency is that it got all of the bigots to feel comfortable enough to say the silent part out loud. They revealed themselves for who we all knew they were all along but pretended not to be.

The cure to division is radical honesty and accountability. We are not going to pretend that one man's ignorance is equal to another man's knoweldged anymore. That is over.

The "facts over feelings" crowd needs to be presented with the facts, and shut down. We are not debating the merits of their conspiracies against reality. This is what is true, this is what is going to happen, end of discussion.

Stupid people need to stop being coddled, and allowed to have "alternative facts," and alternative media, and separate divorced-from-reality realities. I actually had to have this conversation with a family member at one point when they asked why we can't have "civil" discussions.

I had to tell them it's hard to have civil discourse when we can't even come to a working foundation of what reality is. I told them I'm not just going to except their misinformation because you want to hold equal weight to reality.

Originally posted by Newjak
I actually had to have this conversation with a family member at one point when they asked why we can't have "civil" discussions.

I had to tell them it's hard to have civil discourse when we can't even come to a working foundation of what reality is. I told them I'm not just going to except their misinformation because you want to hold equal weight to reality.

Like Brittani Telfair once wrote, "You are not entitled to 'civility.'"

Civil discourse does not always have symmetric asks of everyone involved. For instance, a person of color may be asked to defend why marginalized communities should have equal rights if their oppression pleases white people and makes the latter better off. If they respond with frustration, they may be accused of being "uncivil." However, this would be a misplacement of blame. To demand that some people defend their presence, their identity, and their very existence is an uncivil act, regardless of how politely the demand is posed. Anger or frustration in a person's response does not invalidate their argument, as they are responding to an act of aggression.

As James Baldwin said, "We can disagree and still love each other unless your disagreement is rooted in my oppression and denial of my humanity and right to exist." We can discuss many things calmly and politely. My worth is not one of them, and no one is entitled to conversation, civility, or respect if they think otherwise.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Who the **** things Boris is affable? He's a ****. He's been likeable since before he was even London Mayor.

His character really works on some people, I don't get it to be honest, he seems like an unlikeable idiot to me.

Originally posted by Artol
His character really works on some people, I don't get it to be honest, he seems like an unlikeable idiot to me. That's the likeable factor. He doesn't seem like a posh git. I get that it's mostly an act, but I'd rather have him than a lot of the other Tories... Or labour.

Originally posted by Blakemore
That's the likeable factor. He doesn't seem like a posh git. I get that it's mostly an act, but I'd rather have him than a lot of the other Tories... Or labour.

Hmm, to me he seems like a certain old timey stereotype of a posh git. Like the kind of self deprecating, colonialist type, who will definitely eat your children while you die in a diamond mine for him, but he'll make a self aware joke about it...

The rest aren't much better imo

Originally posted by Artol
Hmm, to me he seems like a certain old timey stereotype of a posh git. Like the kind of self deprecating, colonialist type, who will definitely eat your children while you die in a diamond mine for him, but he'll make a self aware joke about it... Hell yeah. Boris is aristocracy scum.

Originally posted by Newjak
I actually had to have this conversation with a family member at one point when they asked why we can't have "civil" discussions.

I had to tell them it's hard to have civil discourse when we can't even come to a working foundation of what reality is. I told them I'm not just going to except their misinformation because you want to hold equal weight to reality.

If someones being facetious, I agree.


Doesn't mean I'll go out of my way to he hostile against someone who's arguing in good faith. At the least, it's educational to pin down why they feel as they feel.

Very interesting, i agree