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POST SERUM WALKER
RUMLOW HAS HIS GAUNTLETS/KNIVES

WHO WINS

H2H/MELEE ONLY

I give it to Walker. Unlike Cap, he will be trying to kill Rumlow, not only do enough damage to subdue him or knock him out. He's not as good a fighter as Steve, but he is far more ruthless and brutal. Rumlow has a chance to win if he gets a lucky hit in a vital area, but far more likely is John breaks a bone or sends him flying and jumps on him before he can recover.

In the h2h fight, Rumlow dies very fast.

Well shit. I knew I shouldn't have gone into this site before I watched the latest episode.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well shit. I knew I shouldn't have gone into this site before I watched the latest episode.

Sorry bro. I got spoiled too. Saw it on my feed like 20 minutes after I woke up.

If it's any consolation, I believe you at least knew he would eventually become a super soldier from the comics, correct?

Originally posted by KingD19
Sorry bro. I got spoiled too. Saw it on my feed like 20 minutes after I woke up.

If it's any consolation, I believe you at least knew he would eventually become a super soldier from the comics, correct?

Yes, but I was thinking it was going to be near the last episode. Although I guess we're 4 out of 6 now so shouldn't have come as a surprise... still got surprised though. Nobody's fault but mine.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes, but I was thinking it was going to be near the last episode. Although I guess we're 4 out of 6 now so shouldn't have come as a surprise... still got surprised though. Nobody's fault but mine.

Yeah we're almost at the penultimate episode. No way they would save Walker's transformation for the last episode or the next season. We're supposed to see Sam with the shield at the end of season 1 I believe.

Despite knowing he upgrades, you shouldn't be disappointed. The episode, especially the action sequences are amazing.

Originally posted by KingD19


In the h2h fight, Rumlow dies very fast.
Right after Bane, agreed.

Walker stomps

Walker is a fukin psycho. As mentioned, he doesn't have Steve's level of skill, but he has the sheer ferocity to make up for it and the stats to back it up. He'd probably decapitate Rumlow with the shield after the last episode.

It's be really hilarious and awful if Battlestar gets up at the beginning of the next episode, walks out with a serious headache, then sees what Walker just did. And Walker's like Fffffuuuuuuuu...

Originally posted by KingD19
It's be really hilarious and awful if Battlestar gets up at the beginning of the next episode, walks out with a serious headache, then sees what Walker just did. And Walker's like Fffffuuuuuuuu...

Lol, that would be pretty dark.

But I kind of appreciate what happened in the sense that it shows us just how dangerous a Super Soldier who doesn't hold back is to a regular human. Because they should all be able to do that, but it's never really shown in the films. Their human opponents are basically rubber in other instances.

Finally watched the episode, and I think I'm going to go against the grain here. Falcon was able to hold his own in a fight against a bunch of super soldiers. Don't get me wrong, he would have been creamed without Bucky and Walker there to help him out, but he still didn't do so bad.

So far nothing Walker has done has indicated that he's anywhere near Cap's league. I mean, he beat up a super soldier who really was nothing more than a juiced up street thug. What makes us think he can take on a professionally trained hitman like Crossbones?

At least I know that Crossbones can hang with Cap for a bit. So for now I'm backing Crossbones till I get to see more of walker.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Lol, that would be pretty dark.

But I kind of appreciate what happened in the sense that it shows us just how dangerous a Super Soldier who doesn't hold back is to a regular human. Because they should all be able to do that, but it's never really shown in the films. Their human opponents are basically rubber in other instances.

It would, but it would make Walker look even worse, which might be hard, but we'll see him pull it off in the next episode I bet. And yeah, Cap has sent plenty of normal people on trips with punches and kicks only for them to be okay. Or simply not dead.


Originally posted by FrothByte
Finally watched the episode, and I think I'm going to go against the grain here. Falcon was able to hold his own in a fight against a bunch of super soldiers. Don't get me wrong, he would have been creamed without Bucky and Walker there to help him out, but he still didn't do so bad.

So far nothing Walker has done has indicated that he's anywhere near Cap's league. I mean, he beat up a super soldier who really was nothing more than a juiced up street thug. What makes us think he can take on a professionally trained hitman like Crossbones?

At least I know that Crossbones can hang with Cap for a bit. So for now I'm backing Crossbones till I get to see more of walker.

Falcon w/ gear did okay. He burned one to get her off him and made masterful use of his wings and maneuverability. We even see he could fight Batroc, but was at a disadvantage in the small space of that plane.

Cap was trying to put Rumlow down, he wasn't trying to kill him. Walker will be going from the kill from the start. A single full force hit will send him flying if it's center mass. If he hits a limb, it's breaking. Rumlow can't feel pain, doesn't mean he got more durable. And any guy who can bend a pipe in half and crush a jeep by jumping on it has a good chance against Rumlow if he's trying to straight up murder him, which Walker will be.

Also despite being a shitheel, he has the shield and knows how to use it.

Falcon has shown that he can use his suit to augment his attacks and agility during combat.

Also, Rumlow had a number of advantages when fighting Steve that he won't have here.

- He had the element of surprise and was able to deliver a hard cheapshot right to Steve's spine at the start of the fight and then punched him in the face while he was still on the ground. One could argue that it took Steve a bit to fully regain his bearings after that.
- Steve was not fighting to kill. Walker is a maniac who wouldn't hold back at all.
- Steve didn't have his shield, as he had to toss it right at the start. I'm assuming including melee and not just H2H in the OP means Walker has the shield for this fight but is simply restricted from using his gun, which makes a huge difference.

^ Sure, all of those are legit points. But I'm still failing to see to see what Walker did that supposedly raised him above Rumlow. In a clean, direct confrontation, Bucky was one-shotting some of those new super soldiers. They weren't that tough. Most of their success in fighting was due to superior numbers and the element of surprise.

On the other hand, we know that Rumlow was beating up Sam with ease in h2h. Granted, Falcon didn't have his gear but Rumlow was also not enhanced.

We know that Crossbones took out Black Widow with as much ease as Bucky did.

And while Crossbones didn't last too long against Cap, he still put up a better fight than those super soldiers did against Bucky in a direct one on one fight.

In the end, Rumlow still has better on screen feats to pull from than Walker.

Edit: the fact that Rumlow could take multiple punches from Cap without crumpling proves he has some degree of super strength. I also don't know where you guys got the idea that Cap wasn't going for the kill. He certainly had no hesitations hitting Rumlow's associates with full force. Cap has shown a willingness to kill before.

Sam has come a very long way since CA:TWS. And, as mentioned already, he's able to use the thrust from his suit to augment his physical attacks and his movement and agility in combat. Not just his punches. He was sending the Flag Smashers flying with a number of his attacks and avoiding a number of their hits in return in an acrobatic manner by using his wing pack.

When did Bucky oneshot any of them? He punches one so that they went off camera, but there's nothing to indicate the guy was KO'd, seeing as they were all able to flee after Karli killed Lemar. And all the others took multiple hits before going down. Even the one he beat in the knife fight wasn't actually KO'd, simply knocked to the ground. And the other one literally got sent through a brick wall.

Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow, who only won because her Bites failed to have any effect on him.

If Cap wanted to kill Rumlow he could have used one of Brock's own piston arms to stab him after tearing it off him. Instead, he tosses it away. Or he could have snapped his neck after beating Rumlow into submission. He didn't do either. He was clearly more interested in apprehending him. The henchman didn't have the same value in that regard. We've seen him do similar with Batroc and his henchman before as well. Take out the fodder with extreme prejudice but simply try to KO/disable the leader to try and take them into custody.

Solid debate ITT. For me personally, I'm leaning towards Rumlow after a really good fight. I'm also assuming this is Walker without the shield since the OP clearly says H2H.

Crossbones had some great hits on Steve. He even had him on the ropes for a bit until Steve started taking him apart as he got his rhythm. The gauntlets themselves are no joke either. Every time Steve tried to block a hit from them, they sent him tumbling. Any hit that actually connected from them sent Steve straight up flying. It got to the point where Steve just started dodging every hit from the gauntlets and countering with a few punches of his own (which Crossbones actually took pretty well), so it's clear they were doing damage.

To me, US Agent hasn't shown himself to be on Caps level in terms of pure skill yet. I have my doubts he could finesse his way around the gauntlets the way Steve did. If he tries to keep blocking as Rumlow presses or takes to many hits, he's in trouble. The few hits US Agent took towards the end of this episode had him bleeding out of his skull (It would have taken a lot more than that to hurt cap). I think Rumlow would eventually beat him into submission or KO him. There is also the fact that he took a different serum to the one Steve took. Sure, the show claims it's a perfected and "more subtle" SS serum, but I wouldn't assume he's Caps physical equal just yet. Until we get a US Agent vs Winter Soldier fight in this show (which I'm really hoping for), I'm going to lean towards Rumlow.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Solid debate ITT. For me personally, I'm leaning towards Rumlow after a really good fight. I'm also assuming this is Walker without the shield since the OP clearly says H2H.

OP says H2H/Melee. Not just H2H. Melee means close range combat, likely in order to exclude Walker from using the gun he carries.

I should just clarify that, unlike what some others posted, I don't believe this is a stomp by any means. I just think the combination of Walker's superior stats, ferocity and I presume still having the shield and just not his gun nets him the win here. Because while he doesn't have Steve's H2H skill, he's proven that he's already very good with that thing, even able to ricochet it off multiple targets and have it come back to him.

https://i.imgur.com/yQuizvZ.mp4

Now, if he doesn't have the shield for this then, yeah, it becomes a different story.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
OP says H2H/Melee. Not just H2H. Melee means close range combat, likely in order to exclude Walker from using the gun he carries.

I should just clarify that, unlike what some others posted, I don't believe this is a stomp by any means. I just think the combination of Walker's superior stats, ferocity and I presume still having the shield and just not his gun nets him the win here. Because while he doesn't have Steve's H2H skill, he's proven that he's already very good with that thing, even able to ricochet it off multiple targets and have it come back to him.

https://i.imgur.com/yQuizvZ.mp4

Now, if he doesn't have the shield for this then, yeah, it becomes a different story. I'm going to be honest; I've never really looked into it but I've always considered a melee to be something more H2H focused. A quick google shows me definitions that agree with both 'close quarters combat' and 'H2H'. The slash in the OP is also something I've always taken more as an "and" rather than a "or". It's weird wording, but it seems like the OP meant without the shield. Otherwise, why specify that Rumlow has the knife gauntlets but not specify that Agent has the shield? On the other hand, the only fight we've seen with post-serum Agent is with the shield, so you may be right about OPs intentions. Also, is it really hand to hand if Rumlow gets the knife gauntlets?

If he has the shield, I can agree that he puts up a better fight and possibly even gets the win. Assuming he doesn't lose the shield, the force he throws it with post-serum can shatter concrete and could be pretty devastating for Rumlow (though Rumlow's armor seemed to be able to take hits from Rogers, and I don't really agree with the idea that he was holding back that entire fight; maybe towards the end as he gained the upper hand though). It's also worth noting that a hit from the gauntlet with the knives extended would be also have pretty lethal consequences for Walker too. Still, I'd give the majority to US Agent w/shield, but the majority to Rumlow w/out the shield.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I'm going to be honest; I've never really looked into it but I've always considered a melee to be something more H2H focused. A quick google shows me definitions that agree with both 'close quarters combat' and 'H2H'. The slash in the OP is also something I've always taken more as an "and" rather than a "or". It's weird wording, but it seems like the OP meant without the shield. Otherwise, why specify that Rumlow has the knife gauntlets but not specify that Agent has the shield? On the other hand, the only fight we've seen with post-serum Agent is with the shield, so you may be right about OPs intentions. Also, is it really hand to hand if Rumlow gets the knife gauntlets?

If he has the shield, I can agree that he puts up a better fight and possibly even gets the win. Assuming he doesn't lose the shield, the force he throws it with post-serum can shatter concrete and could be pretty devastating for Rumlow (though Rumlow's armor seemed to be able to take hits from Rogers, and I don't really agree with the idea that he was holding back that entire fight; maybe towards the end as he gained the upper hand though). It's also worth noting that a hit from the gauntlet with the knives extended would be also have pretty lethal consequences for Walker too. Still, I'd give the majority to US Agent w/shield, but the majority to Rumlow w/out the shield.

Well, that's why I assumed the stips just meant excluding ranged weapons i.e. Walker's gun. Would be weird to have a purely H2H intention but then specify that Crossbones can use bladed weapons.

And I pretty much agree. With the shield, Walker should be able to defend from the blades pretty well, and a full-force throw connecting is going to ruin Rumlow's day quite badly. Without the shield, Johnny boy likely gets stabbed to death.

And the argument isn't really that Steve was pulling his punches. More that he wasn't intentionally trying to inflict a fatal injury, which Walker is more likely to try and do, especially after how Lemar's death made him basically snap.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Sam has come a very long way since CA:TWS. And, as mentioned already, he's able to use the thrust from his suit to augment his physical attacks and his movement and agility in combat. Not just his punches. He was sending the Flag Smashers flying with a number of his attacks and avoiding a number of their hits in return in an acrobatic manner by using his wing pack.

When did Bucky oneshot any of them? He punches one so that they went off camera, but there's nothing to indicate the guy was KO'd, seeing as they were all able to flee after Karli killed Lemar. And all the others took multiple hits before going down. Even the one he beat in the knife fight wasn't actually KO'd, simply knocked to the ground. And the other one literally got sent through a brick wall.

Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow, who only won because her Bites failed to have any effect on him.

If Cap wanted to kill Rumlow he could have used one of Brock's own piston arms to stab him after tearing it off him. Instead, he tosses it away. Or he could have snapped his neck after beating Rumlow into submission. He didn't do either. He was clearly more interested in apprehending him. The henchman didn't have the same value in that regard. We've seen him do similar with Batroc and his henchman before as well. Take out the fodder with extreme prejudice but simply try to KO/disable the leader to try and take them into custody.

I don't think it's accurate to say Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow since Rumlow wasn't even trying. He did only throw one punch after all. For the most part he was content on dragging Natasha and tanking all her hits. Still, the point I was trying to make was that Nat's hits were having about as little effect on him as they did on Bucky, which kinda shows he's been enhanced to similar stats.

Remember that Cap wasn't able to beat Crossbones by simply overpowering him, he had to outskill him. In fact it seemed Crossbones was actually the one overpowering Steve with those gloves of his but he was certainly taking Steve's hits the way you'd expect someone of similar physical stats would. As in, it took multiple shots to take him. Even Rumlow's headbutt hurt Steve a bit, and he wouldn't have been able to do that if he wasn't close to Steve's stats.

So where are we getting this idea that Walker has superior stats?

Yes Falcon's pack does help propel his attacks but there were attacks he launched which didn't use his jetpack that still affected the Flagsmashers. He hit Karli with a spinning back kick without using his jetpack and it knocked her down and stunned her. In comparison, Black Widow hit Crossbones multiple times and could barely budge him. So I don't buy that Walker has superior stats over Rumlow, at least till we get more feats from him.

As for Bucky, the fight I was thinking about was the fight in the staircase. I was mistaken, it was two shots that took out a flagsmasher instead of one, but it still proves that the flagsmashers aren't exactly that tough of an opponent one on one. There's another one in the group fight that he hits only once and that guy is taken out of the fight till they all rest and look at dead lemar.

In the end, Walker beating up a Flagsmasher is just not enough proof that he can take out Crossbones imo. I'm pretty sure he'll get better feats in the next few episodes but until then, I'd say Crossbones wins by simply having better feats.

Crossbones inability to feel pain and Cap being unwilling to shatter his bones or ping-pong his brain in his skull to stop him is a heavy dose of context. He wasn't physically enhanced by getting burned up. His pain receptors just didn't tell his body it was time to go down so he could keep fighting. Also he was covered in heavy duty armor that helped him out even more.

Rumlow has no physical stat enhancements whatsoever.

Originally posted by KingD19
Crossbones inability to feel pain and Cap being unwilling to shatter his bones or ping-pong his brain in his skull to stop him is a heavy dose of context. He wasn't physically enhanced by getting burned up. His pain receptors just didn't tell his body it was time to go down so he could keep fighting. Also he was covered in heavy duty armor that helped him out even more.

Rumlow has no physical stat enhancements whatsoever.

There's actually a higher chance of injuring someone by hitting them multiple times rather than just knocking him out one time. If Cap really wanted to not injure Rumlow, he would have tried to take him out with as few hits as possible. So this idea that Cap was holding back so much that he needed to hit Crossbones with multiple hits just doesn't make sense. That's just not how fights go and not how Cap fights, since we've seen him knock out people multiple times with 1 to 2 shots before. In fact that's generally how he fights. The fact that he needed to use multiple shots against Crossbones proves that he couldn't do it with just one or two.

Besides, Rumlow was clearly enhanced above more than simply not feeling pain, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to briefly stun Cap with a headbutt.

Delete please.

Originally posted by FrothByte
There's actually a higher chance of injuring someone by hitting them multiple times rather than just knocking him out one time. If Cap really wanted to not injure Rumlow, he would have tried to take him out with as few hits as possible. So this idea that Cap was holding back so much that he needed to hit Crossbones with multiple hits just doesn't make sense. That's just not how fights go and not how Cap fights, since we've seen him knock out people multiple times with 1 to 2 shots before. In fact that's generally how he fights. The fact that he needed to use multiple shots against Crossbones proves that he couldn't do it with just one or two.

Besides, Rumlow was clearly enhanced above more than simply not feeling pain, otherwise he wouldn't have been able to briefly stun Cap with a headbutt.

Regardless, we know for a fact Cap can easily maim or injure Rumlow if he wanted. Ultron happened before Civil War and in Ultron Cap was fighting a 7 foot tall robot man and throwing him hard enough to shatter highway support pillars. So there's far more evidence pointing to him not trying to seriously injure or kill Rumlow because it's evident Cap could do some serious damage if he had a mind to.

Rumlow is a sub-boss though and given extra screen time to make him seem like a threat. Even Batroc who is absolutely normal gave Cap a bit of trouble because he was the leader of the pirates. Everyone else got one shot, but he actually fought with Steve for a few minutes, turned his head, even pushed him back.

There is no stated evidence or shown evidence of Rumlow being enhanced. He got burned so badly he no longer felt pain, that's it. If you want to say he got enhanced offscreen somewhere, you need to prove it.

And again, he didn't "stun" Cap with a headbutt. With his heavily armored helmet, he headbutted him, and he took advantage of the split second Cap reeled back to hit him with the pile drivers.

It even appears Cap dislocated/fractured/broke Rumlow's elbow to remove his gauntlet and he basically ignored it after a few seconds. We hear the crack of the bone as he snaps his elbow, then after favoring it, he just uses it to help take his helmet off like the injury didn't happen. Showing again how little his pain receptors actually work.

uWub01SyQLA

Originally posted by KingD19
Regardless, we know for a fact Cap can easily maim or injure Rumlow if he wanted. Ultron happened before Civil War and in Ultron Cap was fighting a 7 foot tall robot man and throwing him hard enough to shatter highway support pillars. So there's far more evidence pointing to him not trying to seriously injure or kill Rumlow because it's evident Cap could do some serious damage if he had a mind to.

Rumlow is a sub-boss though and given extra screen time to make him seem like a threat. Even Batroc who is absolutely normal gave Cap a bit of trouble because he was the leader of the pirates. Everyone else got one shot, but he actually fought with Steve for a few minutes, turned his head, even pushed him back.

There is no stated evidence or shown evidence of Rumlow being enhanced. He got burned so badly he no longer felt pain, that's it. If you want to say he got enhanced offscreen somewhere, you need to prove it.

And again, he didn't "stun" Cap with a headbutt. With his heavily armored helmet, he headbutted him, and he took advantage of the split second Cap reeled back to hit him with the pile drivers.

It even appears Cap dislocated/fractured/broke Rumlow's elbow to remove his gauntlet and he basically ignored it after a few seconds. We hear the crack of the bone as he snaps his elbow, then after favoring it, he just uses it to help take his helmet off like the injury didn't happen. Showing again how little his pain receptors actually work.

uWub01SyQLA

A person's inability to feel pain won't make them immune to getting electrocuted, getting knocked out, getting the wind knocked out of them, or even getting knocked back when they get hit with powerful punches and kicks.

There's no way Rumlow could have fought against Cap and BW the way he did unless he was enhanced. That headbutt staggered Cap and made him take a few steps back. That doesn't happen to you unless the hit hurt you.

You're trying to make up a scenario that Cap was massively holding back, a lot more than he generally does against other opposition, when the more obvious answer is simply that Rumlow was simply enhanced.

Originally posted by FrothByte
A person's inability to feel pain won't make them immune to getting electrocuted, getting knocked out, getting the wind knocked out of them, or even getting knocked back when they get hit with powerful punches and kicks.

There's no way Rumlow could have fought against Cap and BW the way he did unless he was enhanced.

You're trying to make up a scenario that Cap was massively holding back, a lot more than he generally does against other opposition, when the more obvious answer is simply that Rumlow was simply enhanced.

Rumlow himself tells Widow when she tries to "bite" him. "IT DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, NO MORE!" Every bit of information in every official source and wiki says he had enhanced pain immunity because of his pain receptors being burned. Not a one says he was enhanced. There's no novelizations, no side stories, no director/producer behind the scenes. Nothing. So what evidence do you have that he was enhanced? Because without the gauntlets, he didn't do anything impressive that suggests superhuman stats.

I'm not making up a scenario. We know how strong Cap is, so if someone can hold up against him for a while without having powers of their own, then he's clearly not using all his strength.

Was Batroc enhanced? His fight with Cap lasted several minutes. And the similarity to Crossbones was that he was the boss of a small group of bad guys who Cap already walked the dog on. But just like Crossbones, once Cap figured out his gimmick and tangled with him a bit, he easily took him down.

Originally posted by KingD19
Rumlow himself tells Widow when she tries to "bite" him. "IT DON'T WORK LIKE THAT, NO MORE!" Every bit of information in every official source and wiki says he had enhanced pain immunity because of his pain receptors being burned. Not a one says he was enhanced. There's no novelizations, no side stories, no director/producer behind the scenes. Nothing. So what evidence do you have that he was enhanced? Because without the gauntlets, he didn't do anything impressive that suggests superhuman stats.

I'm not making up a scenario. We know how strong Cap is, so if someone can hold up against him for a while without having powers of their own, then he's clearly not using all his strength.

Was Batroc enhanced? His fight with Cap lasted several minutes. And the similarity to Crossbones was that he was the boss of a small group of bad guys who Cap already walked the dog on. But just like Crossbones, once Cap figured out his gimmick and tangled with him a bit, he easily took him down.

You're still avoiding the elephant in the room. Being immune from pain doesn't make you immune from getting electrocuted. BW zapped Rumlow on his neck where his flesh was exposed. He doesn't spasm, his muscles don't lock up, in fact he just continues to talk normally. Can you do that by simply not feeling pain?

As for Batroc, I'm glad you brought that up. Watch that fight again and see how effective Cap's hits are on him compared to Rumlow. Batroc lasted as long as he did because he was fast and furious. But every time Cap hit him it only took 1-2 shots before he got knocked down. Rumlow was clearly tougher than Batroc, just not as fast or as skilled.

In fact in their elevator fight, Cap took out Rumlow with one or two shots IIRC. Why wouldn't he do the same thing here? Immunity from pain doesn't make you immune from getting knocked out.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You're still avoiding the elephant in the room. Being immune from pain doesn't make you immune from getting electrocuted. BW zapped Rumlow on his neck where his flesh was exposed. He doesn't spasm, his muscles don't lock up, in fact he just continues to talk normally. Can you do that by simply not feeling pain?

As for Batroc, I'm glad you brought that up. Watch that fight again and see how effective Cap's hits are on him compared to Rumlow. Batroc lasted as long as he did because he was fast and furious. But every time Cap hit him it only took 1-2 shots before he got knocked down. Rumlow was clearly tougher than Batroc, just not as fast or as skilled.

Maybe? I'm not expert on it. I'm simply following the guidelines and feats set up by the movie. His pain receptors don't work. That's official. And there's real life evidence that tasers don't work on everyone. I can put up a video right now of a guy getting tasered, and he calmly pulls the prongs out and looks at the officer. He's just a normal guy.

Batroc wasn't armored. He was wearing normal clothes. Crossbones had on a full armored suit, and a metal helmet. Also Batroc felt the impact of every single hit Cap gave him. Rumlow, having no pain receptors, could ignore them as long as he could still move. Yes, being unable to feel pain means you can take more hits than someone who can. You can stab yourself in the arm all day and I'll stop after one because it hurts and my brain tells me that's bad.

You can take the issue up with Marvel because that's what's said, that's what's shown. Maybe Hollywood doesn't know how to properly show off people with pain immunity, because Francis in Deadpool said his power was he "didn't feel pain", but he was physically strong enough to fight Deadpool and had enhanced reflexes as well.

The fact though is we don't see any physical enhancement from Rumlow. Only him ignoring damage that would put other people down because he can't feel it.

During the elevator fight, Steve was hitting Rumlow along with the other HYDRA agents but saved him for last. Then he checked him in the gut and slammed his skull into an elevator ceiling grate hard enough to dent the metal. He didn't deliver any KO shots to Rumlow's skull when he came back as Crossbones. Even the kick that sent him flying was in his armored vest, not his face.

Originally posted by KingD19
Maybe? I'm not expert on it. I'm simply following the guidelines and feats set up by the movie. His pain receptors don't work. That's official. And there's real life evidence that tasers don't work on everyone. I can put up a video right now of a guy getting tasered, and he calmly pulls the prongs out and looks at the officer. He's just a normal guy.

Batroc wasn't armored. He was wearing normal clothes. Crossbones had on a full armored suit, and a metal helmet. Also Batroc felt the impact of every single hit Cap gave him. Rumlow, having no pain receptors, could ignore them as long as he could still move. Yes, being unable to feel pain means you can take more hits than someone who can. You can stab yourself in the arm all day and I'll stop after one because it hurts and my brain tells me that's bad.

You can take the issue up with Marvel because that's what's said, that's what's shown. Maybe Hollywood doesn't know how to properly show off people with pain immunity, because Francis in Deadpool said his power was he "didn't feel pain", but he was physically strong enough to fight Deadpool and had enhanced reflexes as well.

The fact though is we don't see any physical enhancement from Rumlow. Only him ignoring damage that would put other people down because he can't feel it.

During the elevator fight, Steve was hitting Rumlow along with the other HYDRA agents but saved him for last. Then he checked him in the gut and slammed his skull into an elevator ceiling grate hard enough to dent the metal. He didn't deliver any KO shots to Rumlow's skull. Even the kick that sent him flying was in his armored vest, not his face.

Look, let me offer you an olive branch. If you can prove to me how being immune from pain allows you to get tasered and the neck and continue talking normally, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise, not everything in a movie needs to be spelled out. In fact it's usually considered bad writing when you have to explain everything via exposition. It's normally preferred to show it in action.

When we first saw Bucky in the Winter Soldier, there was no mention of him being enhanced outside of his metal arm. But we all inferred that he was enahnced based on how he was fighting Cap. Same logic here. Crossbones could not have fought the way he did without enhancements, armor or no. Unless, like I said, you can prove thar being immune to pain also makes you immune from getting tasered in the neck.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Look, let me offer you an olive branch. If you can prove to me how being immune from pain allows you to get tasered and the neck and continue talking normally, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise, not everything in a movie needs to be spelled out. In fact it's usually considered bad writing when you have to explain everything via exposition. It's normally preferred to show it in action.

When we first saw Bucky in the Winter Soldier, there was no mention of him being enhanced outside of his metal arm. But we all inferred that he was enahnced based on how he was fighting Cap. Same logic here. Crossbones could not have fought the way he did without enhancements, armor or no. Unless, like I said, you can prove thar being immune to pain also makes you immune from getting tasered in the neck.

Why do I have to prove what the movie made canon in the Marvel universe? According to them, in their movie, that's how it is. It's up to you to prove it's different since your opinion is the one that goes against stated and written canon.

You can't use Bucky as an example. He showed blatant superhuman physical stats even without his metal arm because he was knocking Cap around as easily as Cap did to him. Rumlow only used the piledrivers because he wasn't physically enhanced. Even if he was, it's only his toughness. If he was super strong he wouldn't have needed the piledrivers would he?

Also, Bucky had further exposition to explain how he was alive after 70+ years, and we knew he was enhanced because when he was a normal guy he wasn't. We saw him fighting as a normal man so clearly him being so jacked, having a metal arm, and being able to launch Steve like a normal guy showed he was enhanced even before they explained.

As for Rumlow, since nothing was explained, you can't just use your opinion as fact. Bucky got explained, Rumlow got killed. He can't be proved to be enhanced because he's dead, and before he died, the only thing he showed was the ability to ignore hits and Widow's bites.

Originally posted by KingD19
Why do I have to prove what the movie made canon in the Marvel universe? According to them, in their movie, that's how it is. It's up to you to prove it's different since your opinion is the one that goes against stated and written canon.

You can't use Bucky as an example. He showed blatant superhuman physical stats even without his metal arm because he was knocking Cap around as easily as Cap did to him. Rumlow only used the piledrivers because he wasn't physically enhanced. Even if he was, it's only his toughness. If he was super strong he wouldn't have needed the piledrivers would he?

Also, Bucky had further exposition to explain how he was alive after 70+ years, and we knew he was enhanced because when he was a normal guy he wasn't. We saw him fighting as a normal man so clearly him being so jacked, having a metal arm, and being able to launch Steve like a normal guy showed he was enhanced even before they explained.

As for Rumlow, since nothing was explained, you can't just use your opinion as fact. Bucky got explained, Rumlow got killed. He can't be proved to be enhanced because he's dead, and before he died, the only thing he showed was the ability to ignore hits and Widow's bites.

Well you need to prove it because what you're saying goes against what we see on screen. You say Rumlow wasn't enhanced but we have feats of him doing stuff of a superhuman nature. The golden rule in the mvf is that we go by feats, and it's feats above everything else even above what Marvel may or may not have written on their site (you'll need to provide a source for that btw since I can't confirm where you actually read that).

Again, Rumlow headbutt Steve and made him stagger back a step or two. He couldn't have achieved that without some degree of super strength. You can't use the excuse of him having an armored mask because Cap has taken punches from Ironman without getting staggered back a step.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well you need to prove it because what you're saying goes against what we see on screen. You say Rumlow wasn't enhanced but we have feats of him doing stuff of a superhuman nature. The golden rule in the mvf is that we go by feats, and it's feats above everything else even above what Marvel may or may not have written on their site (you'll need to provide a source for that btw since I can't confirm where you actually read that).

Again, Rumlow headbutt Steve and made him stagger back a step or two. He couldn't have achieved that without some degree of super strength. You can't use the excuse of him having an armored mask because Cap has taken punches from Ironman without getting staggered back a step.

Upon closer inspection of the fight, at 1:52, Rumlow's swing gets caught by both Cap's hands, then he headbutts him while he's off balance. Cap goes back a single step and Rumlow gut punches him as he's backing up and knocks him into the wall. So he took advantage of his armored helmet and Steve's bad positionning to set him up for a combo. He didn't just stand there, snap his head forward and Steve stumbled around glossy eyed.

Are you saying Rumlow who needed pile driver gauntlets to deliver superhuman punches, was so strong that he could just normally headbutt Steve into submission? Why does he need the piledrivers then?

Is the headbutt the only superhuman feat you're talking about? Because you're making it seem like he can headbutt harder than Iron Man can punch. You need to prove he's superhuman because a single headbutt's not gonna cut it. Batroc knocked Cap around with kicks and punches and he's a normal guy. He's not Luke Cage, normal people can still affect him. But they're not gonna put him down. And if he really wants to, a single punch or kick would kill them.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Look, let me offer you an olive branch. If you can prove to me how being immune from pain allows you to get tasered and the neck and continue talking normally, then I'll agree with you.

Otherwise, not everything in a movie needs to be spelled out. In fact it's usually considered bad writing when you have to explain everything via exposition. It's normally preferred to show it in action.

When we first saw Bucky in the Winter Soldier, there was no mention of him being enhanced outside of his metal arm. But we all inferred that he was enhanced based on how he was fighting Cap. Same logic here. Crossbones could not have fought the way he did without enhancements, armor or no. Unless, like I said, you can prove thar being immune to pain also makes you immune from getting tasered in the neck. TBH in Rumlows case, I'd just go with comic book logic and say he trained to be beyond peak human after his burning. Think Daredevil in the show somehow nearly becoming a bullet timer and fighting supernatural ninjas and the Black Death (which KOed Luke Cage) to a stalemate despite the blinding chemicals just gifting him heightened hearing. He accomplished all this through training. It's also similar to Ozymandias kicking people across rooms through concrete pillars and catching bullets through training. I think that satisfies both your arguments tbh. Nothing suggests Rumlow was necessarily amped through SS serum or anything, but due to the nature of the material he's in (a comic book movie), he doesn't really have to be. He can just do exactly as his feats allow, meaning if he can headbutt hard enough to hurt Cap, he can headbutt hard enough to hurt US Agent.

Originally posted by KingD19
Upon closer inspection of the fight, at 1:52, Rumlow's swing gets caught by both Cap's hands, then he headbutts him while he's off balance. Cap goes back a single step and Rumlow gut punches him as he's backing up and knocks him into the wall. So he took advantage of his armored helmet and Steve's bad positionning to set him up for a combo. He didn't just stand there, snap his head forward and Steve stumbled around glossy eyed.

Are you saying Rumlow who needed pile driver gauntlets to deliver superhuman punches, was so strong that he could just normally headbutt Steve into submission? Why does he need the piledrivers then?

Is the headbutt the only superhuman feat you're talking about? Because you're making it seem like he can headbutt harder than Iron Man can punch. You need to prove he's superhuman because a single headbutt's not gonna cut it. Batroc knocked Cap around with kicks and punches and he's a normal guy. He's not Luke Cage, normal people can still affect him. But they're not gonna put him down. And if he really wants to, a single punch or kick would kill them.

No, I'm obviously not talking about just the headbutt. I've repeatedly stated that him taking a taser to the throat and not reacting to it, him getting hit repeatedly by Cap and not easily going down, him being able to tank pretty much every hit BW threw at him, and him knocking Steve back with a headbutt are all superhuman feats. None of these would be doable by simply being immune to pain.

Now take note, Black Widow herself is capable of somewhat superhuman feats when compared to a real world human like surviving a backhand from Hulk. So Crossbones treating her like he did puts him massively above a regular real-world human.

And no, Cap wasn't set off balance by blocking Rumlow's hands. He used both arms to block Rumlow's single-arm blow but Cap was standing upright and firmly planted when he got headbutt. I just watched the scene in slow motion. So Cap getting staggered by that headbutt means it hit with a decent amount of force, especially when Cap himself wears a helmet.

In the end, I agree with what Arachnid said. It doesn't really matter whether you think Crossbones did what he did because he was enhanced or if it was because of his armor, hydraulics and immunity to pain. The important part is that he was able to do them. He completely brushed off all the attacks Black Widow threw at him. He was able to take multiple hits from Cap without going down, was not knocked out despite taking a full powered kick from Cap that launched him a dozen or so meters away.

What this means is that Walker will need to land a number of hits in order to knock down Rumlow nevermind knock out, whereas each of Rumlow's punches will be sending Walker flying back if it connects. And Walker has not shown the skill necessary to avoid all those blows nor the skill necessary to disarm Rumlow.

I'm not saying it's a stomp either way, but Walker just doesn't have the feats to give him a victory over Rumlow at this point. I'm sure that will change in the next few episodes.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
TBH in Rumlows case, I'd just go with comic book logic and say he trained to be beyond peak human after his burning. Think Daredevil in the show somehow nearly becoming a bullet timer and fighting supernatural ninjas and the Black Death (which KOed Luke Cage) to a stalemate despite the blinding chemicals just gifting him heightened hearing. He accomplished all this through training. It's also similar to Ozymandias kicking people across rooms through concrete pillars and catching bullets through training. I think that satisfies both your arguments tbh. Nothing suggests Rumlow was necessarily amped through SS serum or anything, but due to the nature of the material he's in (a comic book movie), he doesn't really have to be. He can just do exactly as his feats allow, meaning if he can headbutt hard enough to hurt Cap, he can headbutt hard enough to hurt US Agent.

Black Widow is already beyond peak human. We saw how easily Crossbones dealt with her.

As for Ozymandias, he's generally considered superhuman in these threads despite there never any mention in the movies that he has super powers. So I don't know why we're applying a different standard to Crossbones.

But I agree, whether or not Rumlow is enhanced is not as important as the fact that he managed to go toe to toe with Cap for a bit. Which means he's strong and skilled enough to put a hurting on Walker.

Originally posted by FrothByte
I don't think it's accurate to say Black Widow completely outskilled Rumlow since Rumlow wasn't even trying. He did only throw one punch after all. For the most part he was content on dragging Natasha and tanking all her hits. Still, the point I was trying to make was that Nat's hits were having about as little effect on him as they did on Bucky, which kinda shows he's been enhanced to similar stats.

Remember that Cap wasn't able to beat Crossbones by simply overpowering him, he had to outskill him. In fact it seemed Crossbones was actually the one overpowering Steve with those gloves of his but he was certainly taking Steve's hits the way you'd expect someone of similar physical stats would. As in, it took multiple shots to take him. Even Rumlow's headbutt hurt Steve a bit, and he wouldn't have been able to do that if he wasn't close to Steve's stats.

So where are we getting this idea that Walker has superior stats?

Yes, he threw one punch and it was easily avoided. So, you'll argue Steve was fighting hard against Rumlow but Rumlow wasn't trying against Nat? And no, that's not evidence they've been enhanced to similar levels when one was wearing heavy body and face armour while the other wasn't. And her punches were making Brock's head snap around.

Rumlow even featured extensively in the Civil War prequel comic and there was nothing anywhere in there to suggest he'd received some kind of Super Soldier-like enhancement.

IMO, it's more likely that the piston arms are quite heavy so there's a lot of extra mass behind Rumlow's swings, coupled with the added power the arms themselves give. And Rumlow used his entire upper body behind the headbutt to send Steve back a step, which you don't need super strength to do. Especially when your entire face is covered in a solid mask. He immediately delivers another hit afterwards so it's hard to gauge how much lasting effect the headbutt had on its own.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yes Falcon's pack does help propel his attacks but there were attacks he launched which didn't use his jetpack that still affected the Flagsmashers. He hit Karli with a spinning back kick without using his jetpack and it knocked her down and stunned her. In comparison, Black Widow hit Crossbones multiple times and could barely budge him. So I don't buy that Walker has superior stats over Rumlow, at least till we get more feats from him.

When did Falcon stun her? Are you talking about in the courtyard, where he kicked her hard enough to knock her to the base of a pillar a few feet away? Because she was back on her feet and in pursuit less than ten seconds after he delivered the kick, after listening to their plans first.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As for Bucky, the fight I was thinking about was the fight in the staircase. I was mistaken, it was two shots that took out a flagsmasher instead of one, but it still proves that the flagsmashers aren't exactly that tough of an opponent one on one. There's another one in the group fight that he hits only once and that guy is taken out of the fight till they all rest and look at dead lemar.

In the end, Walker beating up a Flagsmasher is just not enough proof that he can take out Crossbones imo. I'm pretty sure he'll get better feats in the next few episodes but until then, I'd say Crossbones wins by simply having better feats.

Uh, yeah, and one of those shots sent him sailing down a staircase and the other literally sent him through a solid brick wall. It's not like Bucky just punched the guy twice and KO'd him.

And there's literally not even 15 seconds screen time between Bucky punching that one Flag Smasher and Karli clocking Lemar. So, if they were out, it wasn't for very long at all. And that's assuming they were and not simply off screen while the attention of the camera was focused on Karli trying to stab Walker and Lemar intervening.

Your argument actually makes Crossbones sound kind of shitty in the skill department. Because if he was enhanced to similar levels to a Super Soldier, had full body and face armour, piston arms with knives to further enhance his lethality while Steve was unarmed, was bloodlusted while Steve wasn't, had the element of surprise, and still got his ass kicked in fairly short order, then that's actually a bad showing for him.

And just regarding the not explicitly being told Bucky was enhanced thing, his feats in CA:TWS were much more overt, like kicking a guy like 20 feet into a jet engine, or jumping off a bridge and crushing a car on impact, all without the use of extra gear or armor. Plus, Hydra was already shown experimenting on him in CA:TFA which allowed him to survive falling a couple hundred feet into an icy canyon. So, the evidence for Bucky being superhuman was far more overt than soaking up some hits or delivering super hard blows while having gear that specifically aided in doing so, along with the deadened nerves/immunity to pain thing (which has actually been used by other films besides MCU stuff as an excuse to make characters inhumanly tough).

Originally posted by Arachnid1
TBH in Rumlows case, I'd just go with comic book logic and say he trained to be beyond peak human after his burning. Think Daredevil in the show somehow nearly becoming a bullet timer and fighting supernatural ninjas and the Black Death (which KOed Luke Cage) to a stalemate despite the blinding chemicals just gifting him heightened hearing. He accomplished all this through training. It's also similar to Ozymandias kicking people across rooms through concrete pillars and catching bullets through training. I think that satisfies both your arguments tbh. Nothing suggests Rumlow was necessarily amped through SS serum or anything, but due to the nature of the material he's in (a comic book movie), he doesn't really have to be. He can just do exactly as his feats allow, meaning if he can headbutt hard enough to hurt Cap, he can headbutt hard enough to hurt US Agent.

Technically, the chemicals enhanced all of Matt's remaining senses. Not just hearing.

Along with hearing (which would also grant him enhanced equilibrium and balance), it boosted touch, taste and smell as well. Which, on a random note, would actually suck IMO. For example, imagine walking past a dumpster and being able to basically taste the garbage in your mouth.

Then if you also factor in that Matt, despite being blind, has no blindspots due to not being reliant on line of sight, and actually has an enhanced sense of touch (meaning a higher awareness of his own body among other things), his senses actually make a huge impact in terms of fighting capability.

Nicely explained, ty!

And just to be clear, I have zero issues with the notion that Rumlow, being a comic book movie character, is stronger and tougher than a real-world human would be. Or that his natural abilities coupled with his skill level and gear and pain immunity can allow him to contend with a Super Soldier-tier opponent. What I am explicitly objecting to is this notion that he was somehow enhanced off screen to have Super Soldier-like abilities of his own. I don't see him being able to embed a shield into concrete with a toss, launch opponents several feet with attacks, casually bend a metal pipe or withstand a multi-floor drop onto the roof of a vehicle without some kind of gear to aid him, never mind any of the other Super Soldier feats we've seen in the show or films.

And that Walker being able to handle the Flag Smashers just as easily as Bucky did, even when fighting some of them 2-on-1, coupled with his ruthlessness and vibranium shield (which, as has been shown throughout the films, is great at absorbing super strong punches or kicks) is enough to net him a win after a hard fight. And, as I have already stated, without the shield I do see Crossbones winning. Now, others are free to disagree, but nothing I have seen on screen or in this thread makes me think otherwise about either position.

Well after the latest episode it seems my arguments no longer hold water. Either Walker is a massively better combatant than I gave him credit for, a better fighter than Steve even, or they seriously downgraded Bucky who used to be able to nearly match Steve.

I'm pretty sure it's the latter because the MCU seems to be intent on nerfing Bucky more with every appearance he makes, but it still makes my power scaling for this thread moot.

I think it's more a case of Walker being freakishly strong, even for a Super Soldier, likely due to already being pretty much a peak human in terms of athleticism even before taking the serum.

Because even ignoring skill, there were instances in that fight where Bucky was getting muscled around by Walker, even while using both his regular and vibranium arm, which is something Steve was never capable of during their bouts when Bucky had the old arm. Now, we could assume that the vibranium arm is much weaker than the old titanium one, but that doesn't really make sense from an in-universe perspective, especially considering Bucky was able to backhand through a solid steel beam with it during the fight with Walker.

I mean Walker even straight up ripped Sam's wings off, something Bucky needed to use his robo arm to do in the past. So, Walker is extremely strong, even for a Super Soldier. If you look at the fight, he mostly outmuscled them rather than outfought them. I mean he's clearly not a bad fighter, being able to trade blows with Bucky, but the strength advantage is what pushed it in his favour IMO.

Also, people use the fight against the Dora Milaje to argue against Walker, but tend to ignore the fact that A. Wakanda is a warrior nation. I mean they literally pick their ruler through ritual combat. B. The Dora Milaje are the elite of the elite when it comes to warriors in their country. C. The trio in question were sent after the guy who killed the previous king, so they were probably some of the most skilled and experienced fighters in their ranks. So, even though she was unnamed, chances are good that Walker was fighting one of the most formidable melee combatants in all of Wakanda. And D. Walker appeared to underestimate them, based on his attitude before the fight and his "they weren't even Super Soldiers" comment afterwards.

I always took it that Walker being "off the charts" as a normal guy meant that he just became super beast mode as a Super Soldier since Erskine said it enhanced everything. That's why not only is he visibly stronger than a normal super soldier, even one as good as Bucky, but his mental state is more disturbed. He even lied to Lamar's parents to their face.

It would also allow them to canonically show Walker is more powerful than Steve like the comics.

And just like that, US Agent went from struggling with Rumlow to potentially taking the win against Cap himself. Hell of a showing. Someone needs to make the inevitable Cap vs US Agent thread.

I'm back on the fence about this. Walker fought like an unskilled brawler during the finale. He's still crazy strong, being able to manhandle all the Flag Smashers he could get his hands on and easily knock Karli away when she tried to grab his shield (as well as haul back that armored truck that was going over the edge), but he fought so badly that it made me facepalm. I suppose one could argue that he let his emotions get the better of him being confronted by Lemar's killers and the comment by Karli about how his life didn't matter, but, man, he fought like shit. If he fought that way against Rumlow he'd get fuking skewered by Brock's blades. Now that I've watched the whole thing, it seems the writers are really bad at portraying consistent skill levels among the combatants.

Honestly, the person who looked the best was friggin' Batroc, who could hang with Sam despite him having the shield and a new Wakandan tech, presumably vibranium weave suit (which appears to be bulletproof). Also, Sam should have gotten his arms crushed by the truck, regardless of the winged suit, as his arms would have still needed to handle the strain of supporting the vehicle.

That was a pretty bad showing for Walker in that last episode. If he fights like that against Crossbones he'll get a knife through his face.

The power levels in this show are all over the place. It's times like these when I miss Whedon. I mean, the guy has issues, but at least him being a comicbook fan himself means he pays a bit more attention to power and skill consistency among characters.

Whoever the director of this show is has the same issues as the Russos: They'll sacrifice character consistency in order to make a good scene.

IDK. After thinking about it, I chalk up that last fight with Walker to anger. She told him his best friend died for nothing, and it looked pretty clear here was a bit out of it due to the serums mental effects (crazy eyes, covered in sweat). It looked like he was just trying to power/brute force through (it's also possible that he's truly just that incapable without a proper shield, but that would be kind of dumb IMO). There was no skill there unlike previous fights. IMO the benchmark for post serum walker is his fight with Falcon/WS.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
IDK. After thinking about it, I chalk up that last fight with Walker to anger. She told him his best friend died for nothing, and it looked pretty clear here was a bit out of it due to the serums mental effects (crazy eyes, covered in sweat). It looked like he was just trying to power/brute force through (it's also possible that he's truly just that incapable without a proper shield, but that would be kind of dumb IMO). There was no skill there unlike previous fights. IMO the benchmark for post serum walker is his fight with Falcon/WS.

It's going to be a pretty weak reasoning though, unless we're saying he wasn't angry when he fought Bucky/Sam. I mean, sure, we can definitely make excuses and reasons for it, but the fact that we even need to do so is already proof of the power inconsistency.

I'd say Walker is as strong as Cap and WS, but possibly less skilled overall.

I think they are all roughly on the same level though.Originally posted by Arachnid1
IDK. After thinking about it, I chalk up that last fight with Walker to anger. She told him his best friend died for nothing, and it looked pretty clear here was a bit out of it due to the serums mental effects (crazy eyes, covered in sweat). It looked like he was just trying to power/brute force through (it's also possible that he's truly just that incapable without a proper shield, but that would be kind of dumb IMO). There was no skill there unlike previous fights. IMO the benchmark for post serum walker is his fight with Falcon/WS. Walker vs Bucky/Falcon is actually the outlier.

Walker should body

Originally posted by Mindset
I'd say Walker is as strong as Cap and WS, but possibly less skilled overall.

I think they are all roughly on the same level though.

Walker vs Bucky/Falcon is actually the outlier. I took it as the baseline because that episode was the first we saw of post-serum Walker. He was even fighting multiple Flag Smashers at the same time the entire time while Falcon and WS took on singles earlier in the episode. This last episode seemed like the outlier to me out of his three combat instances post-serum. I also can't call them all around the same level when two of them struggled tag teaming a single. He even had them both down and out at some point during that fight; straight up beaten. Placing them at similar levels or arguing either of them beyond Walker just doesn't make sense.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It's going to be a pretty weak reasoning though, unless we're saying he wasn't angry when he fought Bucky/Sam. I mean, sure, we can definitely make excuses and reasons for it, but the fact that we even need to do so is already proof of the power inconsistency. He's not going to see red there the same way he did when he saw the terrorist who actually murdered his best friend, and then told him his best friend died for nothing. He also spent a solid couple of minutes breaking down and then collecting himself before Falcon and WS showed up. He had no real cause to be angry with them. Especially since they just fought to save his life from an ambush. It was clear he wasn't near as angry or out of it there (though the serum was still buffing his paranoia about their intentions concerning the shield/Cap mantle, which is also somewhat sound reasoning since he doesn't know them and both of them have been against him having the shield and mantle since the beginning). That's all compounded too since he had been given a less than honorable discharge from the military while also being abandoned and stripped of his benefits after everything he sacrificed. He had time to stew after losing everything, and you can bet his anger was directed at her for all of it. I also don't agree that me having to reason his performance constitutes power inconsistency. Explaining that particular inconsistency is the entire point of the reasoning.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I took it as the baseline because that episode was the first we saw of post-serum Walker. He was even fighting multiple Flag Smashers at the same time the entire time while Falcon and WS took on singles earlier in the episode. This last episode seemed like the outlier to me out of his three combat instances post-serum. I also can't call them all around the same level when two of them struggled tag teaming a single. He even had them both down and out at some point during that fight; straight up beaten. Placing them at similar levels or arguing either of them beyond Walker just doesn't make sense.

It wasn't the first episode of post serum Walker.

He was fending off multiple with his shield, but he never took any of them out. The shield is a huge advantage, especially when you're taking on multiple opponents.

Bucky took out Flag Smashers easier than Walker did in that ep.

Last episode isn't an outlier because it was similar to how he was handling the Flag Smashers when he was fighting with Bucky and Falcon, the difference is that he didn't have Cap's shield.

Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of his fights. Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of Bucky's and Falcon's feats too.

Originally posted by Mindset
It wasn't the first episode of post serum Walker.

He was fending off multiple with his shield, but he never took any of them out. The shield is a huge advantage, especially when you're taking on multiple opponents.

Bucky took out Flag Smashers easier than Walker did in that ep.

Last episode isn't an outlier because it was similar to how he was handling the Flag Smashers when he was fighting with Bucky and Falcon, the difference is that he didn't have Cap's shield.

Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of his fights. Pretty clear what the outlier is when you look at all of Bucky's and Falcon's feats too. You'll have to aware me on where I'm going wrong on the serum timeline then. Walker throwing the shield into concrete before fighting the Flag Smashers was the first indication that he had actually injected the serum, and that was right before his big fight with the flag smashers. That was the first fight he had post serum, and the first episode he had it in his system to the best of my memory. He was even talking to Lamar the same episode about whether or not he should take the serum since he was conflicted about the results, and Lamar indirectly told him to do it. Then he was twitching as he showed up to the final encounter, showing the serum was in the middle of exerting its effects.

Walker clearly had the Smasher he was fighting 1v1 overwhelmed before he started taking doubles (the guy he who's pole he bent in half in the stairwell). He didn't take him out but it was clear he wasn't worried about the dude since he was pretty casual during the encounter and then he let the guy run off only to pursue him at a leisurely pace just like when Falcon showed up in the beginning. He straight up stomped that guy 1v1, and he did it casually so it seems strange to act like he couldn't have ended the dude without breaking a sweat.

You also say "fend off" as if Walker was just barely managing. He was skilled and put out plenty of punishment in that last fight. He started off the big fight hitting two separate targets with the shield (helping Falcon with his by propelling the guy into Falcons attack), before starting his 1v2. Then he floored one before disarming the other and then going at it with both in an extended melee. Meanwhile, WS took out one in a fair fight and then blindsided another that was sprinting at Falcon. Falcon didn't take out anyone. Then Walker proceeded to chase down that Flag Smasher and beat him fair 1v1 before killing him. The dude was completely overwhelmed and couldn't even fend Walker off, though he definitely tried.

Walker stomped two targets in 1v1s and was the only one to be able to fight 2 at a time evenly. That's two similarly enhanced individuals. No matter which way you slice it, that's more impressive than Bucky beating a few in 1v1 (which Walker had no trouble doing either; in fact, Walker took out his singles more casually than Bucky did). Nothing in this fight suggested Walker was somehow lesser than WS. It definitely showed him to be above Falcon.

Then, not 10 minutes after this same encounter, Walker proceeded to fight both WS and Falcon at the same time. He had them both overwhelmed and out-skilled the majority of the fight. He just kept flooring them, and they didn't get a hit on him until Falcon sweeped him with the wings (which Walker rolled out of; you could barely call that a hit but I'm being generous here) late into the fight. There was even an instance where Walker had Bucky pinned against a surface with a shield, and he wasn't even struggling all that much while Bucky was clearly strained to the max and overpowered (this is after he tossed the shield so hard, Bucky got carried with it vs him straight up stopping the shield with one hand when Cap threw it in WS). Then he hammer tossed Bucky and straight up KOed him. From there, they got a few hits in, but only by blindsiding him and taking advantage when he was about to kill the other.

And you know what? Now that I've rewatched it, that last fight wasn't an much of an outlier for Walker either (mostly). Walker initially got overwhelmed by 4 Flag Smashers before being saved by Bucky. Then Bucky went over the edge followed by another Flag Smasher for yet another 1v1. At this point we got another 1v2 with Walker and two Flash Smashers. This time, he proceeded to straight up stomp and KO both of them singlehandedly and almost instantly with the $hitty shield. Then he spotted Karli and started pursuing her. He had her completely overwhelmed before she floored him with that Rey Mysterio wire move (I'd say this is the only real outlier for him, but they had to move the plot along).

Walker was consistently shown to be beyond Winter Soldier. He was about even fighting both WS and Falcon at the same time. Neither of them are on par with him.

There's no way I'm read all that.

C'mon...

Originally posted by Mindset
There's no way I'm read all that.

C'mon... That's alright. It wasn't necessarily just for you, and most if it is just a play by play of the fights post-serum Walker was in. The point is to establish Walkers level for versus matches. The show made it clear that he's >>>>> Bucky at multiple instances.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
That's alright. It wasn't necessarily just for you, and most if it is just a play by play of the fights post-serum Walker was in. The point is to establish Walkers level for versus matches. The show made it clear that he's >>>>> Bucky at multiple instances. It doesn't, but you're welcome to that view.

Do you also think he's >>>> Cap when Bucky showed superior strength to Cap with his bionic arm?

Originally posted by Mindset
It doesn't, but you're welcome to that view.

Do you also think he's >>>> Cap when Bucky showed superior strength to Cap with his bionic arm? It does. You're free to ignore the post where I clearly outlined why, but plugging your ears won't make you right. Walker performed better. Full stop.

And yes, he's stronger than Cap (at least as far as CA:TWS). He didn't just overpower Bucky's arm. He overpowered his entire body and pinned him before straight up KOing him by hammer tossing him into a wall. He had Bucky completely helpless, which is something Steve just wouldn't be able to do. US Agent is also stronger than Cap in the comics, so that's something that they may have wanted to translate.

Walker repeatedly overpowered anyone he was up against one-on-one in terms of strength, whether it was Sam, Bucky, Karli or any of the other Flag Smashers. That's one of the few things in the show that was actually consistent.

He's still lacking in the skill feats department though IMO. He used more muscle than finesse a lot of the time.

And I still think Crossbones can take this. A strength advantage is useful, but you can still be outfought by a more skilled opponent, and I can think of a bunch of people who are physically weaker than Walker but are more skilled and use bladed weapons who'd kill him. And he no longer has the shield either. Though I suppose he can just shoot opponents in situations where his sidearm isn't restricted.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
And I still think Crossbones can take this. A strength advantage is useful, but you can still be outfought by a more skilled opponent, and I can think of a bunch of people who are physically weaker than Walker but are more skilled and use bladed weapons who'd kill him. And he no longer has the shield either. Though I suppose he can just shoot opponents in situations where his sidearm isn't restricted.

I think Walker has a good chance of outlasting Crossbones if it wasn't for the knives. But Walker is not skilled enough to avoid all hits, and those knives are going to be the death of him.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
It does. You're free to ignore the post where I clearly outlined why, but plugging your ears won't make you right. Walker performed better. Full stop.

And yes, he's stronger than Cap (at least as far as CA:TWS). He didn't just overpower Bucky's arm. He overpowered his entire body and pinned him before straight up KOing him by hammer tossing him into a wall. He had Bucky completely helpless, which is something Steve just wouldn't be able to do. US Agent is also stronger than Cap in the comics, so that's something that they may have wanted to translate. If you weren't verbose I would have read it.

Every super solder can throw each other around. Cap and Bucky were throwing each other around in their fight.

Bucky and Cap have better feats than Walker right now.

I will say it's possible that the vibranium arm is weaker than his original one though.

Originally posted by Mindset
If you weren't verbose I would have read it.

Every super solder can throw each other around. Cap and Bucky were throwing each other around in their fight.

Bucky and Cap have better feats than Walker right now.

I will say it's possible that the vibranium arm is weaker than his original one though. I didn't just say "throw around". I said he had him pinned and overpowered, body and all (and for an extended period of time). He also had Bucky KOed pretty easily. Can just any super soldier do all that? Way to ignore every part of the post that mattered to, yet again, misconstrue the argument and make a pointless statement.

Bucky got stomped in a fight. This is the most recent version of Bucky with all feats intact. That means Walker is beyond him. There is no way around this, and arguing it is asinine. It's on screen for anyone to see.

Explaining feats to you requires being verbose. Otherwise, you choose to ignore what's on screen like you've been doing. That post was me spelling every fight out as simply as possible, and in a way that can't be refuted because it's play for play, straight from the screen. Welcome to the versus message board.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I didn't just say "throw around". I said he had him pinned and overpowered, body and all (and for an extended period of time). He also had Bucky KOed pretty easily. Can just any super soldier do all that? Way to ignore every part of the post that mattered to, yet again, misconstrue the argument and make a pointless statement.

Bucky got stomped in a fight. This is the most recent version of Bucky with all feats intact. That means Walker is beyond him. There is no way around this, and arguing it is asinine. It's on screen for anyone to see.

Explaining feats to you requires being verbose. Otherwise, you choose to ignore what's on screen like you've been doing. That post was me spelling every fight out as simply as possible, and in a way that can't be refuted because it's play for play, straight from the screen. Welcome to the versus message board. I didn't address it because I wasn't trying to refute it. If someone is of roughly equal strength they can pin you. WS had Cap pinned; Cap had WS pinned. Cap threw WS; WS threw Cap. Shit, WS had Iron Man pinned against a wall. Walker got knocked out by a kick from Karli. Every super soldier has the ability to knock out another super soldier.

If Walker were clearly above WS all of his showings would show that, but they don't. Is Karli above Walker? Bucky knocked her out, but she knocked Walker out.

Originally posted by Mindset
I didn't address it because I wasn't trying to refute it. If someone is of roughly equal strength they can pin you. WS had Cap pinned; Cap had WS pinned. Cap threw WS; WS threw Cap. Shit, WS had Iron Man pinned against a wall. Walker got knocked out by a kick from Karli. Every super soldier has the ability to knock out another super soldier.

If Walker were clearly above WS all of his showings would show that, but they don't. Is Karli above Walker? Bucky knocked her out, but she knocked Walker out. I truly don't understand how you can watch Bucky be physically overpowered and stomped within seconds (twice btw, they had two bouts during that fight), and still try to argue that he's in anyway Walker's equal. It makes it look like you're just arguing favorites. And no, Cap never effortlessly overpowered and pinned WS the way Walker did. You'll need to provide proof of that. Walker forced the dude up into a surface, Bucky tried to push out, and then Walker forced him back in for an extended period. Bucky was flat out helpless and you could see the strain he was under. Meanwhile, Walker was barely struggling to keep him there. The only reason Bucky got out is because Walker decided to KO him and move on to Falcon.

US Agent being physically stronger than WS is the one thing everyone else has been able to agree on with him, at the very least. If you want to prove otherwise, show me a scene of US Agent being physically overpowered by Bucky. If you want to prove Bucky can hang with Walker in a fight, show me a single exchange between them that ends in Bucky's favor. I'm betting you can't do either.

I also pointed out Karli being the only inconsistency as far as Walker goes (as have other people). If you want to argue she's beyond both Walker and Winter Soldier off that, enjoy. The only thing I'm arguing here is that Walker stomped Bucky and that he's a physically stronger super soldier by a solid margin. Both are facts.

When Sam charged Walker from the air during the episode 5 2-on-1, Walker grabbed him and slammed him into the ground. He also won the tug of war and pulled Sam into the ground when the latter tried using his grappling line on him. He then overpowered Bucky (who was the one starting with the shield in hand there), pushed him back, broke his grip on the shield and flung him like a sack of potatoes. During the finale, he easily forced Karli away when she grabbed onto his garage shield. And he overpowers the other Flag Smashers in other instances as well.

I don't think he's the most skilled fighter on the show by any means, but him being the strongest physically was one of the few things that the writers showed with any real degree of consistency.