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If not, then who is it?

Unstoppable force is less then unstoppable, yet when they release it's like "OH YEAH HULK IS ABOUT TO **** SHIT UP." Then he gets his ass kicked.

Not really, and for two reasons.

1. The main one. They completely nerfed the shit out of his powerset.. Namely, his dynamic strength and healing factor were almost non existent.

2. The movies are simply far more realistic about how a one dimensional brick would fare against opponents with comparable strength and durability but far more skilled (Thor)and beings with more versatility and technological shenanigans (Iron Man).

3. Thanos is simply stronger than Hulk and has always been shown that way even in the comics.

Who else did he job against? He treated everything else like fodder.

So basically he wasn't a jobber. He just wasn't really Hulk.

Oh, and the biggest Jobber? Thanos when he fought Cap Marvel or Parker when he fought Cap.

Parker treated Bucky like trash and then lost to Cap. They are equals and this is shown in the movie.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Not really, and for two reasons.

1. The main one. They completely nerfed the shit out of his powerset.. Namely, his dynamic strength and healing factor were almost non existent.

2. The movies are simply far more realistic about how a one dimensional brick would fare against opponents with comparable strength and durability but far more skilled (Thor)and beings with more versatility and technological shenanigans (Iron Man).

3. Thanos is simply stronger than Hulk and has always been shown that way even in the comics.

Who else did he job against? He treated everything else like fodder.

So basically he wasn't a jobber. He just wasn't really Hulk. Well I mean when they brought Hulk out to fight Thanos it was like this big moment. It was almost like "Ohhhh damn Thanos is about to get his shit pushed in." Then gets his ass kicked, accurate to the comics, yeah, but like you said they weren't really trying to be super accurate to the comics. In relation to the other thread, can't Strange... y'know, fight superhuman beings in H2H combat and shit like that? Yet if he ever has to use anything but his magic god help him lol.

Anyway regardless that was illuminating, and sorry for derailing but I'm tired lol.

Spidey jobs pretty hard to Cap in Civil War, and everyone in Homecoming. He was a beast in FFH though, so that stuff may be over.

Hulk jobbed to Iron Man, but him losing to Thor or Thanos is legit.

well yeah, but I think the majority knew before Infinity War even came out that Hulknwas about to get his sbit pushed in. They did it like that for a reason.

Right now I think Bucky is the biggest jobber.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Right now I think Bucky is the biggest jobber. Meh, he took Walker out pretty easily once the shield was out of the picture.

He punched him once and then had Falcon's help to put him down. And this was after Walker had his one arm broken.

I'm going to say Drax actually. He got hyped up in the first GotG movie as this uber dangerous individual before being shown, but more often than not gets utterly humiliated when he fights anyone of note. Got utterly demolished by Ronan, took himself out of the fight against the Abilisk, was useless against Ego and barely fazed Thanos with his attacks. The only person he's beaten is Korath, and he did so by exploiting and targeting an exposed implant on his head.

Originally posted by Adam Grimes
Meh, he took Walker out pretty easily once the shield was out of the picture.

You mean when Walker's arm was already broken and Bucky and Falcon were tag-teaming Walker?

The fact that Bucky needed Falcon's help to take on Walker is what makes Bucky a jobber. In fact in that fight there was a moment he already had the shield and Walker still outright overpowered him and easily knocked him out for a bit.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Right now I think Bucky is the biggest jobber. He got his ass kicked by BP too.

That's the way I see that scene, Bucky got his ass kicked, period. Weird that Spidey was able to nosell Bucky's punch but Cap beat him.

Okay, beat him through environmental means but still.

Also, am I the only one amazed at how far Cap has come? Didn't he lose to Loki in H2H combat in the first Avengers movie?

Now he can use Mjolnir and shit, take on all the other Avengers by himself (with some clear exceptions.)

Originally posted by FrothByte
You mean when Walker's arm was already broken and Bucky and Falcon were tag-teaming Walker?

The fact that Bucky needed Falcon's help to take on Walker is what makes Bucky a jobber. In fact in that fight there was a moment he already had the shield and Walker still outright overpowered him and easily knocked him out for a bit.

I wouldn't call Bucky a jobber per se. Most of his lower end showings in the films and in the show have some context behind them. In the show especially, his screwed up psyche and fear of reverting to his old self is clearly still messing with him. He even states in episode 5 that he thinks there's still a part of the Winter Soldier inside him, during the conversation with Sam about his nightmares.

As to getting overpowered by Walker? Well, as mentioned in the other thread, Walker just seems extra amped after taking the serum. As was noted, Erskine said it amplifies all aspects of a person, so Walker being "off the charts" as a regular human, it doesn't seem surprising that he'd also be similar as a Super Soldier.

I still think Drax is the worst jobber. The guy doesn't even need others to take him out of a fight. He does it on his own.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/17/06/1486340798-guardians-drax-dives-monster.gif

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I wouldn't call Bucky a jobber per se. Most of his lower end showings in the films and in the show have some context behind them. In the show especially, his screwed up psyche and fear of reverting to his old self is clearly still messing with him. He even states in episode 5 that he thinks there's still a part of the Winter Soldier inside him, during the conversation with Sam about his nightmares.

As to getting overpowered by Walker? Well, as mentioned in the other thread, Walker just seems extra amped after taking the serum. As was noted, Erskine said it amplifies all aspects of a person, so Walker being "off the charts" as a regular human, it doesn't seem surprising that he'd also be similar as a Super Soldier.

I still think Drax is the worst jobber. The guy doesn't even need others to take him out of a fight. He does it on his own.

https://hips.hearstapps.com/digitalspyuk.cdnds.net/17/06/1486340798-guardians-drax-dives-monster.gif

Here's the problem with the theory that Walker is an extra strong super soldier. If we assume that he's so strong that he can easily overpower Bucky even with Bucky's robot arm, then each of his hits should at the very least be knocking down Falcon for a 10 count if not outright turning him to mush... especially since we all agree that Walker isn't the type to hold back.

So we either conclude that Walker is extra strong and Sam suddenly developed huge plot armor, or Sam maintains his general strength and fighting skill at which point Bucky is the jobber.

Besides, It's not just Bucky's performance in TFATWS in any case. He's been getting nerfed ever since Civil War where he got outright humiliated by Spiderman and then later on in Infinity War when Cap and BP were outrunning everyone else in the army including Bucky who seemed to run only as fast as the other Wakandans.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Here's the problem with the theory that Walker is an extra strong super soldier. If we assume that he's so strong that he can easily overpower Bucky even with Bucky's robot arm, then each of his hits should at the very least be knocking down Falcon for a 10 count if not outright turning him to mush... especially since we all agree that Walker isn't the type to hold back.

So we either conclude that Walker is extra strong and Sam suddenly developed huge plot armor, or Sam maintains his general strength and fighting skill at which point Bucky is the jobber.

Well, Sam was getting floored by pretty much every hit. Plus he's also taken some hard hits in the films that should seriously hurt a regular human but didn't phase him (like getting smashed through an airport stand while fighting Spider-Man).

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/ScalyWiltedAlligatorgar-mobile.mp4

Hell, the sheer fact that Sam can use his wings the way he does without killing himself shows he has plot-armour durability and always had. The guy even takes out massive, armored opponents without much issue.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/YellowishAlienatedHomalocephale-mobile.mp4

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/RepulsiveTallArcticwolf-mobile.mp4

As I pointed out in the other thread as well, Walker literally tore Sam's wings off, something Bucky needed to use his robo arm to do in CA:TWS. So, even if we ignore the direct head to head between Walker and Buck, he has other feats that still put him above them strength-wise. The fact is even though the title of the show features them both, it's pretty clear Sam is the main star, so plot-armour is pretty much expected for him under those circumstances. Also, I wouldn't say he was easily overpowering Bucky. He was still visibly straining when they were grappling with each other or over the shield

Originally posted by FrothByte
Besides, It's not just Bucky's performance in TFATWS in any case. He's been getting nerfed ever since Civil War where he got outright humiliated by Spiderman and then later on in Infinity War when Cap and BP were outrunning everyone else in the army including Bucky who seemed to run only as fast as the other Wakandans.

Bucky got caught by Spidey because he jumped in the way to shield Falcon and then got webbed to the ground after they fell. His metal arm getting overpowered isn't a low showing seeing as Spider-Man was already strong enough there to catch and hold up a 27-odd ton jet bridge. And Steve should have gotten whooped as well, but it was his movie so Peter wasn't going to be allowed to beat him.

And Bucky likely didn't run ahead with those two during the Wakanda battle because it literally made no sense for him to do so. He was armed with a machine gun whereas they were armed with melee weapons. It'd be kind of dumb for him to run into melee combat when he was not geared up for it, while it made sense for the other two to do so, seeing as they had no ranged capabilities. We see in the second episode of TFATWS that Bucky was able to easily outpace a pair of trucks and jump onto one.

Walker is clearly a Super Duper Soldier. Even Cap has never sent anyone flying that far. Especially by throwing the shield at them.

And he hit Bucky hard enough to knock his arm out of whack for a little while.

They wouldn't have pointed out how awesome he was as a normal guy for no reason. And as it stands he's the only person injected with the SSS that was already a physical specimen. Steve was 100lbs soaking wet in the rain. Bucky was a normal soldier, Red Skull was a scientist, Blonsky was past his prime and nearing retirement, we never got to see young Isaiah in action. And the Flag Smashers were normal orphans before they juiced up. Walker was described as off the charts in every category prior to his injection. So it only makes sense he gets a little extra.

Bucky also smacked through a steel beam during that fight, so his vibranium arm clearly isn't weak. Unless we assume the arm, for whatever reason, fluctuates in power throughout the same fight, Walker being able to overpower him including that arm is a feat for Walker.

https://i.imgur.com/vPsMtId.gif

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
He punched him once and then had Falcon's help to put him down. And this was after Walker had his one arm broken.

I'm going to say Drax actually. He got hyped up in the first GotG movie as this uber dangerous individual before being shown, but more often than not gets utterly humiliated when he fights anyone of note. Got utterly demolished by Ronan, took himself out of the fight against the Abilisk, was useless against Ego and barely fazed Thanos with his attacks. The only person he's beaten is Korath, and he did so by exploiting and targeting an exposed implant on his head.

Good call. Im gonna go with this as well. Totally forgot about him.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Bucky also smacked through a steel beam during that fight, so his vibranium arm clearly isn't weak. Unless we assume the arm, for whatever reason, fluctuates in power throughout the same fight, Walker being able to overpower him including that arm is a feat for Walker.

https://i.imgur.com/vPsMtId.gif

Maybe Walker had some hidden Celestial in his blood since Ego is his dad.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Bucky also smacked through a steel beam during that fight, so his vibranium arm clearly isn't weak. Unless we assume the arm, for whatever reason, fluctuates in power throughout the same fight, Walker being able to overpower him including that arm is a feat for Walker.

https://i.imgur.com/vPsMtId.gif

Is it because this is a gif or does the fight actually look that terrible?

Originally posted by Psychotron
Is it because this is a gif or does the fight actually look that terrible?

The original video the gif was made from was shit and gifs tend to reduce quality even further. Overall, the fight was done reasonably well IMO (especially for a TV show), though it could have done with less cuts used.

Jobbing is losing to make someone else look good right ?

Think Spidey still takes that. His losses to other heroes made no logical sense at all.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Jobbing is losing to make someone else look good right ?

Think Spidey still takes that. His losses to other heroes made no logical sense at all. I'm still really pissed about him losing to Star Lord. Dumbest chit

Yes

Originally posted by Arachnid1
I'm still really pissed about him losing to Star Lord. Dumbest chit

To be fair, Iron Man also got somewhat clowned by Star-Lord in that scene, who trapped Tony against that chunk of rubble with his one device. I think the scene was intended to show how powerful Quill's gear is. Because if Iron Man and Iron Spider struggle to muscle their way out of those devices they must be insanely strong.

I think him incapacitating Falcon and Bucky only to get incapacitated by Steve solo is still a lot worse in terms of jobbing.

What happened with the Hulk and Thanos, was the Hulk was clearly stronger but Thanos had more precision. Precision and power are quotable though, so the longer that fight had gone on the worse it would have been for Thanos.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To be fair, Iron Man also got somewhat clowned by Star-Lord in that scene, who trapped Tony against that chunk of rubble with his one device. I think the scene was intended to show how powerful Quill's gear is. Because if Iron Man and Iron Spider struggle to muscle their way out of those devices they must be insanely strong.




Yeah but the way the scene played out with IM escaping that, and Spidey being held at gun point by Star Lord, definitely made Spidey come across worse.

Especially when dodging is like Spideys thing, not IMs.

IOW That scene showed Star Lord takes Spidey in a fight, but not necessarily IM, as IM being stronger and more durable than Spidey wouldnt be as threatened by a gun to his helmet.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but the way the scene played out with IM escaping that, and Spidey being held at gun point by Star Lord, definitely made Spidey come across worse.

Especially when dodging is like Spideys thing, not IMs.

Spidey didn't get good at dodging until Far From Home. Then he got to be the BEST at dodging.

Originally posted by KingD19
Spidey didn't get good at dodging until Far From Home. Then he got to be the BEST at dodging.


He was still at good at it, even without having worked out the full extent of his Spider Sense.

May even says to him early in FFH, that what you can dodge bullets but not a banana..

Hes not bullet proof (at least not without his spider armour suits), so wouldnt have lasted long crime fighting without dodging.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah but the way the scene played out with IM escaping that, and Spidey being held at gun point by Star Lord, definitely made Spidey come across worse.

Especially when dodging is like Spideys thing, not IMs.

IOW That scene showed Star Lord takes Spidey in a fight, but not necessarily IM, as IM being stronger and more durable than Spidey wouldnt be as threatened by a gun to his helmet.

Iron Man only had time to escape because Star-Lord left him to go attack someone else. If he'd instead slapped the same device on Tony he used on Peter while he'd been stuck, Iron Man would probably have been pretty screwed. I mean he was basically defenseless while he slowly pulled himself loose. And Quill stuck that onto Tony in a grapple, so dodging didn't really factor in there.

We don't really know how Iron Man would have done if Star-Lord unloaded pointblank against his helmet while he was pinned. Those blasters actually have some decent feats. And considering Tony made both his suit and the Iron Spider, if one is susceptible to Quill's weapons the other one might also be.

Honestly, Star-Lord should get spanked by either Iron Man or Spider-Man without too much trouble, but they needed to make the Guardians presence matter on Titan, so made Star-Lord look extra good in that fight. Otherwise, the only useful member there would have been Mantis. Because Drax was getting owned by Strange's cloak.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He was still at good at it, even without having worked out the full extent of his Spider Sense.

May even says to him early in FFH, that what you can dodge bullets but not a banana..

Hes not bullet proof (at least not without his spider armour suits), so wouldnt have lasted long crime fighting without dodging.

Yeah he was good at it and dodged a whole lot in the movies before FFH, but he also got hit a lot too. In FFH he got so good he could dodge invisible bullets and sense stuff that had been manipulated in such a way it seemed real even when it wasn't.

If he'd had his full Tingle from the moment we saw him, he would've never lost a fight except maybe against Thanos.

Originally posted by Tagm4g
What happened with the Hulk and Thanos, was the Hulk was clearly stronger but Thanos had more precision. Precision and power are quotable though, so the longer that fight had gone on the worse it would have been for Thanos.


What are you talking about? The movie made it absolutely clear that Hulk was NOT stronger than Thanos. You know, how Thanos removed Hulk from his advantageous choking position and then downed him with a few blows.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Iron Man only had time to escape because Star-Lord left him to go attack someone else. If he'd instead slapped the same device on Tony he used on Peter while he'd been stuck, Iron Man would probably have been pretty screwed. I mean he was basically defenseless while he slowly pulled himself loose. And Quill stuck that onto Tony in a grapple, so dodging didn't really factor in there.

We don't really know how Iron Man would have done if Star-Lord unloaded pointblank against his helmet while he was pinned. Those blasters actually have some decent feats. And considering Tony made both his suit and the Iron Spider, if one is susceptible to Quill's weapons the other one might also be.

Honestly, Star-Lord should get spanked by either Iron Man or Spider-Man without too much trouble, but they needed to make the Guardians presence matter on Titan, so made Star-Lord look extra good in that fight. Otherwise, the only useful member there would have been Mantis. Because Drax was getting owned by Strange's cloak.



I get that. What im saying is Spidey was portrayed as helpless against Star Lord. IM just temporarily subdued. Which comes across much worse for Spidey, as IM is stronger and more durable, whilst dodging is Spideys forte, but he got hit fairly easily.

Plus there was no clear cut answer who would have won between IM and SL. But there was between Spidey and SL.

So yeah They both jobbed against SL, but only Spidey definitively lost to him.


Originally posted by KingD19
Yeah he was good at it and dodged a whole lot in the movies before FFH, but he also got hit a lot too. In FFH he got so good he could dodge invisible bullets and sense stuff that had been manipulated in such a way it seemed real even when it wasn't.

If he'd had his full Tingle from the moment we saw him, he would've never lost a fight except maybe against Thanos.


Yeah I get Spidey is better at dodging now. Doesnt change that he clearly jobbed to Starlord.

Originally posted by Tagm4g
the Hulk was clearly stronger

I guess you missed the part where Thanos overpowered Hulk?

Bucky is becoming a jobber.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To be fair, Iron Man also got somewhat clowned by Star-Lord in that scene, who trapped Tony against that chunk of rubble with his one device. I think the scene was intended to show how powerful Quill's gear is. Because if Iron Man and Iron Spider struggle to muscle their way out of those devices they must be insanely strong.

I think him incapacitating Falcon and Bucky only to get incapacitated by Steve solo is still a lot worse in terms of jobbing.

Always found it weird how Spidey clowned Bucky and Falcon then almost got killed by Vulture.

Originally posted by Psychotron
I guess you missed the part where Thanos overpowered Hulk?

From a hugely disadvantageous position at that.

Hulk was literally scared to engage with thanos... no hero was ever scared to fight.

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
Hulk was literally scared to engage with thanos... no hero was ever scared to fight.

We're not gonna do that. Hulk wasn't scared. It's been explained into the ground by now that Hulk wasn't afraid of Thanos. He was just tired of Banner using him as an attack dog when something needed to be smashed, then locking him in his head until the next time.

There's a reason he loved being on Sakaar so much, and Bruce explained how he and Hulk merged after he bettered himself mentally.

So Hulk wasn't scared, him getting beat up by Thanos was just the straw that broke the camels back.

Originally posted by KingD19
We're not gonna do that. Hulk wasn't scared. It's been explained into the ground by now that Hulk wasn't afraid of Thanos. He was just tired of Banner using him as an attack dog when something needed to be smashed, then locking him in his head until the next time.

There's a reason he loved being on Sakaar so much, and Bruce explained how he and Hulk merged after he bettered himself mentally.

So Hulk wasn't scared, him getting beat up by Thanos was just the straw that broke the camels back.

That mf was scared

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
That mf was scared

Creators words matter more than your opinion. He was pissed he was a tool, not scared.

Originally posted by KingD19
Creators words matter more than your opinion. He was pissed he was a tool, not scared.

So you believe Banner was using hulk even though damn near every other line from him was how hes cursed with the hulk...

Originally posted by 0mega Spawn
So you believe Banner was using hulk even though damn near every other line from him was how hes cursed with the hulk...

I believe what the MCU creators discussed in an interview fully explaining it and saying he wasn't afraid. Also despite feeling "cursed", he sure pulled the Hulk card every single time he needed someone to get punched. Did you not even watch Ragnarok or Endgame?

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
What are you talking about? The movie made it absolutely clear that Hulk was NOT stronger than Thanos. You know, how Thanos removed Hulk from his advantageous choking position and then downed him with a few blows. The only reason Thanos was able to break the Hulk lock was because he was up against a wall to give him a sturdy support to thrust against and those key strikes broke Hulk's stream of continuity luckily for Thanos, if that fight had dragged on it would have been a steepening uphill battle for Thanos

Originally posted by FrothByte
Always found it weird how Spidey clowned Bucky and Falcon then almost got killed by Vulture.

Honestly, Spider-Man should beat most of the people he lost to onscreen. Barring the fight with Steve, he actually came across a lot more competent in Civil War than he did in his first solo film IMO. He was actually pretty good overall in Civil War (except the Cap fight) whereas he was constantly bumbling around in Homecoming. Not just while in combat, but generally crashing into things and destroying property and such due to his clumsiness.

Luckily, the writers realised that they can't keep doing that 5 movies in with Far From Home and actually made him a lot more competent than shown previously.

Originally posted by KingD19
I believe what the MCU creators discussed in an interview fully explaining it and saying he wasn't afraid. Also despite feeling "cursed", he sure pulled the Hulk card every single time he needed someone to get punched. Did you not even watch Ragnarok or Endgame?

Or Age of Ultron. "Is it a code green?" Get pulled into a fight and then have BW shut him down again with her "lullaby". Or even the first Avengers movie, when Banner needed Hulk to take out the leviathan.

Originally posted by Robtard
Bucky is becoming a jobber.

Well, as I previously explained, I personally don't think he fits the criteria just yet. That being said, I have a bad feeling he is going to job pretty hard during the finale to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully I am wrong, but I just have this feeling that I can't shake.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
From a hugely disadvantageous position at that.

Exactly. The strength gap between them is huge based on that.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, as I previously explained, I personally don't think he fits the criteria just yet. That being said, I have a bad feeling he is going to job pretty hard during the finale to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully I am wrong, but I just have this feeling that I can't shake.

Technically he's already done that. Jobbed to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully he doesn't do it some more.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
From a hugely disadvantageous position at that.

Not necessarily. If you use your shoulder and back muscles along with your arms, you don't really need that much of a strength advantage to break a front choke hold.

But anyway, the Russos have said on more than one occasion that Thanos edges the Hulk out in strength, so kind of a moot point. Barring characters like Surtur and probably Ego and Dormammu, Thanos is likely the physically strongest character shown in the MCU to date. Even Captain Marvel had to use her flight to help her against him.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Technically he's already done that. Jobbed to make Sam, Walker and Karli shine. Hopefully he doesn't do it some more.

What's happened so far can still be explained away though. But I have a nasty feeling he's going to job badly in the finale, mainly to make new Captain America Sam stand out. Probably get beat up by Batroc or Karli or something and then have to get rescued by Sam. I really hope I am wrong though.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
What's happened so far can still be explained away though. But I have a nasty feeling he's going to job badly in the finale, mainly to make new Captain America Sam stand out. Probably get beat up by Batroc or Karli or something and then have to get rescued by Sam. I really hope I am wrong though.

The way I think about it is (or at least the way I used to think about it is): Bucky, T'Challa and Steve Rogers are all roughly in the same level. Or at least they're supposed to be.

And if we swapped Bucky out for T'Challa or Steve Rogers in TFATWS, I'm pretty sure T'Challa and Steve Rogers would have performed a lot better. Would have been treated a lot better than Bucky.

Even if we say Steve Rogers is holding back. Even if we removed T'Challa's advanced armor.

We can come up with numerous explanations, but I doubt the MCU would have ever treated Rogers or T'Challa the way they've treated Bucky.

Originally posted by FrothByte
The way I think about it is (or at least the way I used to think about it is): Bucky, T'Challa and Steve Rogers are all roughly in the same level. Or at least they're supposed to be.

And if we swapped Bucky out for T'Challa or Steve Rogers in TFATWS, I'm pretty sure T'Challa and Steve Rogers would have performed a lot better. Would have been treated a lot better than Bucky.

Even if we say Steve Rogers is holding back. Even if we removed T'Challa's advanced armor.

We can come up with numerous explanations, but I doubt the MCU would have ever treated Rogers or T'Challa the way they've treated Bucky.

It would depend on their mental state IMO. If Steve or T'Challa was afraid of reverting into some psycho monster and potentially harming or killing the wrong person, they might also have trouble knowing how much to hold themselves back during a fight. It's really impossible to say for certain, and considering what canonically happened with Steve in the MCU (becoming a Joe Biden lookalike) and the death of Chadwick Boseman, we'll never get a clear answer on it.

Though I will say that none of that helps Bucky with regards to any Versus matches here, as that's what he's currently like in-character, so will fight that way in threads.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
It would depend on their mental state IMO. If Steve or T'Challa was afraid of reverting into some psycho monster and potentially harming or killing the wrong person, they might also have trouble knowing how much to hold themselves back during a fight. It's really impossible to say for certain, and considering what canonically happened with Steve in the MCU (becoming a Joe Biden lookalike) and the death of Chadwick Boseman, we'll never get a clear answer on it.

Like I said, we can come up with a number of explanations. The writers can come up with a number of explanations. But I doubt the MCU would have ever gone that route with Rogers or T'Challa.

Also as far as mental state goes, a good chunk of your fighting skill is based on muscle memory and instinct. Those should still kick in even when Bucky isn't going for the kill. The drop in Bucky's fighting skill is far bigger than what you'd expect from a mere change in mental state.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Like I said, we can come up with a number of explanations. The writers can come up with a number of explanations. But I doubt the MCU would have ever gone that route with Rogers or T'Challa.

Also as far as mental state goes, a good chunk of your fighting skill is based on muscle memory and instinct. Those should still kick in even when Bucky isn't going for the kill. The drop in Bucky's fighting skill is far bigger than what you'd expect from a mere change in mental state.

Well, maybe, maybe not. Seeing as Steve and T'Challa are usually the main protagonists when they're out and about, it's probably a bit different. But it's still speculation either way.

And a poor mental state and self-doubt can still cause hesitation at the wrong moment, which could be detrimental in a fight. And I don't really see it as that much of a drop, at least not so far.

First fight with the Flag Smashers he didn't know what he was up against. And even then, they had to gang up on him. Then he beat those random mooks in Madripoor without breaking a sweat. He wasn't trying to fight Ayo and never even threw a punch at her IIRC. He even asked her whether they could "talk about this", which clearly shows he wasn't looking to beat anyone up. Then he stomped multiple Flag Smashers without much effort. And then got beat up by Walker. But, as I already mentioned, Walker just appears to me (and to a number of other posters here) to be extra amped as a Super Soldier.

But anyway, we've already been through this whole argument, so guess we'll just have to agree to disagree here. Nothing wrong with having different opinions or interpretations of what happens onscreen. Besides, as I said, for the purposes of an actual Versus match discussion, Bucky being screwed up mentally isn't going to work as a defense, as that's just what he's like now, in-character, which is how we debate combatants. So, unless he gets better showings during the finale, Bucky's going to have a rough time in future KMC match-ups.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Not necessarily. If you use your shoulder and back muscles along with your arms, you don't really need that much of a strength advantage to break a front choke hold.

But anyway, the Russos have said on more than one occasion that Thanos edges the Hulk out in strength, so kind of a moot point. Barring characters like Surtur and probably Ego and Dormammu, Thanos is likely the physically strongest character shown in the MCU to date. Even Captain Marvel had to use her flight to help her against him.

Hela. And it wasn't just that he broke them, he was holding his arms apart while smiling. But moot point like you said

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Hela. And it wasn't just that he broke them, he was holding his arms apart while smiling. But moot point like you said

To me, he looked more like he was grimacing from effort, especially if you compare it to other scenes where he is genuinely smiling, like when he retrieves an Infinity Stone. Because while the Russos did say that Thanos is stronger, there's not a giant gap, at least according to them. According to their comments, the deciding factor was Thanos being a much, much more skilled and capable combatant than Hulk. I posted a link to the one interview a little while back in another thread. Anyway though, bottom line is Thanos is stronger than the Hulk, regardless of the gap size.

I wanted to ask previously though, why do you think Thanos was jobbing against Carol? I mean despite her exploiting her energy aura and flight, Thanos was still able to adapt on the fly to knock her ass out for the rest of the fight.

IMO, if anyone jobbed there it was Carol. She can fly through Thanos' ship and destroy it but once she manages to gain the upper hand, she just strikes a pose in midair and basically waits for him to punch her away, which takes like 5 seconds total during which time she does nothing.

Originally posted by KingD19
I believe what the MCU creators discussed in an interview fully explaining it and saying he wasn't afraid. Also despite feeling "cursed", he sure pulled the Hulk card every single time he needed someone to get punched. Did you not even watch Ragnarok or Endgame?

They can say what they want. Did they explain this in the film? No they did not

Any BS excuse they spewed out was because despite the fact thanos is able to beat hulk hes not about to beat the hulk at full strength AND the avengers without him simply blasting them away with the stones.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Not necessarily. If you use your shoulder and back muscles along with your arms, you don't really need that much of a strength advantage to break a front choke hold.


That's not how it workd at all. You would be using your rear delts, which are generally not that strong.

Yes

Originally posted by Psychotron
That's not how it workd at all. You would be using your rear delts, which are generally not that strong.

Well, dunno what to tell you. I had a guy who used to work as a professional bodyguard show it to me in person and the technique was pretty effective. The motion involved pulling back with not just your arms but most of your upper body, bringing your shoulder blades together.

Anyway, you and I already had this discussion not too long ago (in the Vision vs Hulk thread IIRC) and I posted the article where the Russos explained the scene. Obviously, people are free to discount what they said, but I'm going to stick with their explanation.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
bringing your shoulder blades together.


Yeah. That's the rear delts. It's what they do. Anyway, I'm not discussing this again, I'm speaking purely about the biomechanics involved here as someone who does combat sports and lifting.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
IMO, if anyone jobbed there it was Carol. She can fly through Thanos' ship and destroy it but once she manages to gain the upper hand, she just strikes a pose in midair and basically waits for him to punch her away, which takes like 5 seconds total during which time she does nothing.


I wouldnt call that jobbing, because the scene didnt make Thanos look better than her.

That I would call more CIS or PIS.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I wouldnt call that jobbing, because the scene didnt make Thanos look better than her.

That I would call more CIS or PIS.

Eh, I suppose.

On a somewhat related note, Captain Marvel haters really get triggered if you point out that she technically saved the universe when she interrupted Thanos' first Endgame Snap attempt.

Is there anyone who isn't a Carol hater? She's most forced character in the MCU.

Personally, I'm pretty indifferent to Carol. I think she's been poorly handled by the MCU so far, but that's about it. A character I genuinely despise is Hellcat/Trish Walker from the Netflix shows. She's awful on so many levels.

Well if we're bringing in the Netflix shows then I'm pretty sure Ironfist gets top spot for most hated.

But as far as movie characters go, especially main characters, it's pretty hard to beat Carol from the most hated spot.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well if we're bringing in the Netflix shows then I'm pretty sure Ironfist gets top spot for most hated.

To be fair to Danny, the character never had a chance. The hate started the moment Finn Jones was cast instead of an Asian actor, long before we'd actually seen anything from the show. Now, granted the depiction was not very good (other than his guest appearance in LC S2), but from an objective standpoint Trish is way worse. She's a manipulative, murdering sociopath with virtually zero redeeming characteristics. Danny is just kind of a whiny hothead.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To be fair to Danny, the character never had a chance. The hate started the moment Finn Jones was cast instead of an Asian actor, long before we'd actually seen anything from the show. Now, granted the depiction was not very good (other than his guest appearance in LC S2), but from an objective standpoint Trish is way worse. She's a manipulative, murdering sociopath with virtually zero redeeming characteristics. Danny is just kind of a whiny hothead. TBH I never watched the Iron Fist show since I heard nothing but bad things about it.

I did watch defenders though, and Danny came across as pretty likable in that. Maybe they toned him down, but I like him at the moment.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
TBH I never watched the Iron Fist show since I heard nothing but bad things about it.

I did watch defenders though, and Danny came across as pretty likable in that. Maybe they toned him down, but I like him at the moment.

Well, neither season of Iron Fist is particularly good, but they're also not as bad as a lot of people make them out to be. And they're both better than Jessica Jones S2, which is the worst season of a show of any of the Netflix Marvel properties IMO. Punisher S2 also sucked balls IMO.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, neither season of Iron Fist is particularly good, but they're also not as bad as a lot of people make them out to be. And they're both better than Jessica Jones S2, which is the worst season of a show of any of the Netflix Marvel properties IMO. Punisher S2 also sucked balls IMO. Agreed on all points other than Iron Fist since I haven't seen it. I may have to give it a try if it's at least better than Jones and Punisher S2. I was super disappointed in Punisher since season 1 was up there with Daredevils best IMO. What a waste.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
To be fair to Danny, the character never had a chance. The hate started the moment Finn Jones was cast instead of an Asian actor, long before we'd actually seen anything from the show. Now, granted the depiction was not very good (other than his guest appearance in LC S2), but from an objective standpoint Trish is way worse. She's a manipulative, murdering sociopath with virtually zero redeeming characteristics. Danny is just kind of a whiny hothead.

This always bothered me. People were mad that Iron Fist was a rich white guy who got stranded in Asia and learned Kung-Fu in the show? When that's his comic origin? Iron Fist is not an Asian man, and him being a rich white kid is a big part of his backstory. So why would he not be that?

Jones was awful though. Poor acting, almost no life or flair in his martial arts. He got slightly better later on, but not enough to save IF.

Originally posted by Arachnid1
Agreed on all points other than Iron Fist since I haven't seen it. I may have to give it a try if it's at least better than Jones and Punisher S2. I was super disappointed in Punisher since season 1 was up there with Daredevils best IMO. What a waste.

Well, if you have nothing else to watch and have some free time, maybe give the first episode or two of Iron Fist a try. Don't expect too much though. It's better than The Punisher S2 and Jessica Jones S2, but that's a pretty low bar. It's definitely nowhere near Daredevil. I will say that S2 of Iron Fist is better than S1.

Originally posted by KingD19
This always bothered me. People were mad that Iron Fist was a rich white guy who got stranded in Asia and learned Kung-Fu in the show? When that's his comic origin? Iron Fist is not an Asian man, and him being a rich white kid is a big part of his backstory. So why would he not be that?

Jones was awful though. Poor acting, almost no life or flair in his martial arts. He got slightly better later on, but not enough to save IF.

Well, the martial arts isn't really Finn's fault IMO. The filming was extremely rushed (especially for S1) and according to sources behind the scenes there were instances where they literally taught Finn the choreography 20 minutes before they started filming the sequences. So, they basically set him an impossible task, because no one can pick up years worth of technique and finesse in less than half an hour.

But yeah, it was ridiculous. They wanted to completely change the character and his backstory. Essentially just take the name and powers from the comics and scrap everything else. And it got so bad that he had to quit social media for a while because of all the hate and harassment he got simply for being cast as Danny.

Don't get me wrong. I don't blame him for all the problems, but failing at an impossible task is still failing if that makes sense. Like I get he was put in a very unfair position, and to judge him when knowing the full context is bad. But the end result itself is bad, and that's undeniable. Like I know EA is a shit company and ruined several games with their meddling, but the games companies that make the games still made a bad game.

But changing Iron Fist to Shang Chi w/ a fist like unto iron isn't the way to go. Just like it would be stupid if Black Panther was suddenly a white guy from Boston.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
Well, if you have nothing else to watch and have some free time, maybe give the first episode or two of Iron Fist a try. Don't expect too much though. It's better than The Punisher S2 and Jessica Jones S2, but that's a pretty low bar. It's definitely nowhere near Daredevil. I will say that S2 of Iron Fist is better than S1.



Well, the martial arts isn't really Finn's fault IMO. The filming was extremely rushed (especially for S1) and according to sources behind the scenes there were instances where they literally taught Finn the choreography 20 minutes before they started filming the sequences. So, they basically set him an impossible task, because no one can pick up years worth of technique and finesse in less than half an hour.

But yeah, it was ridiculous. They wanted to completely change the character and his backstory. Essentially just take the name and powers from the comics and scrap everything else. And it got so bad that he had to quit social media for a while because of all the hate and harassment he got simply for being cast as Danny.

He shouldn't get blamed for all the issues with the fight choreography but his lack of athleticism didn't help either. A lot of the moves he was pulling was just pure cringey to look at and they weren't even difficult moves. And even in S2 when he put in a lot of time to learn martial arts, he still looked pretty crappy for movie standards. He's just not an athletic guy. I don't blame him, but I do think he was seriously miscast.