Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Round 1
Cap without shield

Round 2

With shield

Go!

I don't see Cap winning this.

I'm assuming this is still Steve Rogers Cap? People are going to need to specify in the future to avoid confusion.

Anyway, Sub-Zero's ice powers are too much of an advantage here.

Cap. Subzero did absolutely nothing.

Originally posted by carver9
Cap. Subzero did absolutely nothing.

Mortal Kombat physics were.....different. if you watched like 2 different random 10 second clips of fights in it. Subzero would stomp or vice versa. Also, how he used his powers was heavily powered by the plot.

The fact that he froze an entire block, tk lifted the ice and spam slammed it out of nothing says he oneshots cap.

The pure fighting says he contends for sometime due to skill and damage soak but Cap outclasses him in all stats still.

Sub zero wins 😅

Flawless victory.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Mortal Kombat physics were.....different. if you watched like 2 different random 10 second clips of fights in it. Subzero would stomp or vice versa. Also, how he used his powers was heavily powered by the plot.

The fact that he froze an entire block, tk lifted the ice and spam slammed it out of nothing says he oneshots cap.

The pure fighting says he contends for sometime due to skill and damage soak but Cap outclasses him in all stats still.

Agreed with this. The quality of Sub-Zero's ice was also inconsistent. At times he was able to make it hard enough to become a sword, blocking strikes from another sword. Other times the ice was so brittle it shattered whenever someone slammed into it. Most of his ranged ice attacks seemed to carry about as much lethality as a tiny hail shower.

I think Sub-Zero is a more skilled fighter than Steve and actually has a good degree of superhuman strength and toughness, but not in the same class as Steve.

Cap goes back under ice lmfao

Captain America only has a shield, it's no match for an ice blast

Originally posted by Blakemore
Captain America only has a shield, it's no match for an ice blast

He is obviously stronger than a human but not the feats to suggest he could just straight up slug it out with Cap.

Ice blast slide flying kick run upper cut then an air throw.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
He is obviously stronger than a human but not the feats to suggest he could just straight up slug it out with Cap.

He doesn't have to with his skills.

Sub-Zero duh

Capt REALLY STRONGGG ggsgsg but nothing like the difference between capt and the Thing strong. Capt isn't even as strong as Spiderman. Not enough strength difference to beat Sub-Zero.

I'm real life of you don't do a certain exercise, you can't do as many reps. But that has nothing to do with muscle mass. Things that decrease muscle mass are mitosis hormones, the production of tooamy white blood cells, false positives, etc. A peak human might struggle to lift a 25 pound weight because he simply hasn't done that in a while. But if you went h2h you might get merced instantly

Sub zero is so cool he's ice cold 😂

Originally posted by Tirgmirg
Sub-Zero duh

Capt REALLY STRONGGG ggsgsg but nothing like the difference between capt and the Thing strong. Capt isn't even as strong as Spiderman. Not enough strength difference to beat Sub-Zero.

What's Sub-Zero's biggest strength feat and biggest durability feat?

Flawless victory for Cap.

Originally posted by KingD19
What's Sub-Zero's biggest strength feat and biggest durability feat? he'll rip your spine out 🤣

Sub zero probably

Sub-Zero can freeze people just by physical contact. I don't see how Steve is going to counter this. Even though Cap is physically stronger, Bi-Han is still strong enough to ragdoll a 250+ lbs man like Jax, and he's more skilled.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Sub-Zero can freeze people just by physical contact. I don't see how Steve is going to counter this. Even though Cap is physically stronger, Bi-Han is still strong enough to ragdoll a 250+ lbs man like Jax, and he's more skilled.

Why exactly are we concluding that Sub-Zero is more skilled?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Why exactly are we concluding that Sub-Zero is more skilled?

Sub-Zero defeated Hanzo, one of the greatest ninjas ever, centuries before his prime. The same Hanzo, who was carving through trained assassins like butter with a gardening tool.

And exactly what displays of skill does Captain America have anyway? He usually beats people thanks to his physical stats. He never shines against physically equal opponents like Bucky and Black Panther.

Originally posted by Psychotron
Sub-Zero defeated Hanzo, one of the greatest ninjas ever, centuries before his prime. The same Hanzo, who was carving through trained assassins like butter with a gardening tool.

And exactly what displays of skill does Captain America have anyway? He usually beats people thanks to his physical stats. He never shines against physically equal opponents like Bucky and Black Panther.

IIRC, Sub-Zero defeated Hanzo WITH the use of his powers. He didn't do it with pure skill alone.

Captain America has feats of fighting and even defeating opponents of superior physicality. That means all he has left in those fights are his skills. Sub-Zero never did this if I'm not mistaken, fight someone more powerful than him. All of the opponents he fought were inferior to him, if not in physicality then in powerset.

As I mentioned above, even when he defeated Hanzo he still had the advantage of his powers.

Originally posted by FrothByte
IIRC, Sub-Zero defeated Hanzo WITH the use of his powers. He didn't do it with pure skill alone.

Captain America has feats of fighting and even defeating opponents of superior physicality. That means all he has left in those fights are his skills. Sub-Zero never did this if I'm not mistaken, fight someone more powerful than him. All of the opponents he fought were inferior to him, if not in physicality then in powerset.

As I mentioned above, even when he defeated Hanzo he still had the advantage of his powers.

You should re-watch the fight. Bi-Han used his powers in only one brief instance when he had Hanzo by the throat. Hanzo fought out of it in 2-3 seconds and the rest of the fight was a melee fight. Keep in mind that Hanzo was armed with a kunai, while Sub-Zero was unarmed. Bi-Han defeated him with skill, and the Sub-Zero in this thread has centuries of experience after that fight.

Who did Captain America beat that was physically superior? Spider-man? Iron Man? Peter wasn't really defeated, just incapacitated by the jet bridge, and the Tony fight was a mixture of PIS and CIS.

Originally posted by Psychotron
You should re-watch the fight. Bi-Han used his powers in only one brief instance when he had Hanzo by the throat. Hanzo fought out of it in 2-3 seconds and the rest of the fight was a melee fight. Keep in mind that Hanzo was armed with a kunai, while Sub-Zero was unarmed. Bi-Han defeated him with skill, and the Sub-Zero in this thread has centuries of experience after that fight.

Who did Captain America beat that was physically superior? Spider-man? Iron Man? Peter wasn't really defeated, just incapacitated by the jet bridge, and the Tony fight was a mixture of PIS and CIS.


I was thinking Spiderman and possibly Ultron. Also gave both IM and Loki enough of a fight that he wasn't completely run over. Who has Sub-Zero fought that was his physical superior?

And even if Bi-Han fought Hanzo in pure h2h like you claim (I only rented the movie so can't rewatch it at the moment), it's not like Bi-Han completely dominated Hanzo. IIRC he still struggled against Hanzo and even got wounded once or twice.

How then is that more impressive than Captain America defeating the Winter Soldier? Or Captain America defeating Crossbones?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I was thinking Spiderman and possibly Ultron. Also gave both IM and Loki enough of a fight that he wasn't completely run over. Who has Sub-Zero fought that was his physical superior?

And even if Bi-Han fought Hanzo in pure h2h like you claim (I only rented the movie so can't rewatch it at the moment), it's not like Bi-Han completely dominated Hanzo. IIRC he still struggled against Hanzo and even got wounded once or twice.

How then is that more impressive than Captain America defeating the Winter Soldier? Or Captain America defeating Crossbones?

He didn't beat either of them. He kept Ultron occupied but he was getting knocked around. Frankly, Ultron's weapons suck. He shot him point blank several times with his lasers and it didn't kill him. Ultron should invest in a gun. And I already talked about the Spider-man fight. Peter wasn't hurt at all, he was left holding a 12 ton jet bridge, while Steve ran off.

Yeah, Hanzo got some shots in, but the key point here is that this is Sub-Zero from centuries in the past. He didn't even have good control of his powers at this point. You don't think that after hundreds of years of fighting his skils increased?

Bucky is dangerous because of his superhuman stats and robot arm. Take those away and do you think he would be capable of casually dispatching a dozen ninja assassins (I counted) in melee combat like Hanzo?

Originally posted by Psychotron
He didn't beat either of them. He kept Ultron occupied but he was getting knocked around. Frankly, Ultron's weapons suck. He shot him point blank several times with his lasers and it didn't kill him. Ultron should invest in a gun. And I already talked about the Spider-man fight. Peter wasn't hurt at all, he was left holding a 12 ton jet bridge, while Steve ran off.

Yeah, Hanzo got some shots in, but the key point here is that this is Sub-Zero from centuries in the past. He didn't even have good control of his powers at this point. You don't think that after hundreds of years of fighting his skils increased?

Bucky is dangerous because of his superhuman stats and robot arm. Take those away and do you think he would be capable of casually dispatching a dozen ninja assassins (I counted) in melee combat like Hanzo?

You win a fight when your opponent can no longer continue to fight. Spiderman was no longer able to continue to fight Captain America at that point, which means Cap won. If Cap wanted to decapitate Spidey's head during that point, Spidey would have had a very hard time to stop Steve. So that's a win for Cap.

As for Bi-Han, it doesn't matter if lived even longer. We don't know just what kind of opponents he's been fighting all that time and whether he's been training just as hard or improving. If age was simply the metric we use to determine fighting skill then Thor would be massively more skilled than Daredevil. You know the golden rule here in the MvF: Feats matter the most. And right now we dont' have feats of Sub-Zero proving he's a better fighter than Cap, mostly because the people he fights are inferior to him. Heck, for all we know Sub-zero became more dependent on his powers throughout the years and his h2h skill actually deteriorated.

As for Bucky, you saw how easily he was dispatching some of those Flag Smashers. And he wasn't even armed or going for the kill. Put him in Winter Soldier mentality and give him a knife or short sword and he would tear through them as easily as Hanzo tore through those fodder ninjas.

I still think Sub-Zero wins against Cap mostly because of his powers. If it was pure h2h then Cap wins.

Originally posted by FrothByte
You win a fight when your opponent can no longer continue to fight. Spiderman was no longer able to continue to fight Captain America at that point, which means Cap won. If Cap wanted to decapitate Spidey's head during that point, Spidey would have had a very hard time to stop Steve. So that's a win for Cap.

As for Bi-Han, it doesn't matter if lived even longer. We don't know just what kind of opponents he's been fighting all that time and whether he's been training just as hard or improving. If age was simply the metric we use to determine fighting skill then Thor would be massively more skilled than Daredevil. You know the golden rule here in the MvF: Feats matter the most. And right now we dont' have feats of Sub-Zero proving he's a better fighter than Cap, mostly because the people he fights are inferior to him. Heck, for all we know Sub-zero became more dependent on his powers throughout the years and his h2h skill actually deteriorated.

As for Bucky, you saw how easily he was dispatching some of those Flag Smashers. And he wasn't even armed or going for the kill. Put him in Winter Soldier mentality and give him a knife or short sword and he would tear through them as easily as Hanzo tore through those fodder ninjas.

I still think Sub-Zero wins against Cap mostly because of his powers. If it was pure h2h then Cap wins.

If you want to be technical it's a win, but it's a meaningless victory. We both know that in a pure H2H fight in a featureless arena Peter wins. Steve won that fight by exploiting the environment, not superior H2H skill.

You're just wrong here. Sub-Zero clearly gained better mastery of his powers throughout the years, which shows that he was improving. Also, Shang Tsung mentions in the movie that they won the last 9 tournaments by cheating and attacking the Earthrealm champions before the actual tournament. Sub-Zero has been fighting champions for at least 9 generations and those champions had magic powers.

While those ninjas didn't have any feats they are supposed to be exceptionally well trained. Can't say the same about the flagsmashers.

Now, we can argue about their skills all you want, but this isn't a pure H2H fight. Sub-Zero has his powers here and there's nothing stopping him from freezing Steve through the floor like he did Scorpion, so as far as I'm concerned Bi-Han has this one in the bag.

Originally posted by Psychotron
If you want to be technical it's a win, but it's a meaningless victory. We both know that in a pure H2H fight in a featureless arena Peter wins. Steve won that fight by exploiting the environment, not superior H2H skill.

You're just wrong here. Sub-Zero clearly gained better mastery of his powers throughout the years, which shows that he was improving. Also, Shang Tsung mentions in the movie that they won the last 9 tournaments by cheating and attacking the Earthrealm champions before the actual tournament. Sub-Zero has been fighting champions for at least 9 generations and those champions had magic powers.

While those ninjas didn't have any feats they are supposed to be exceptionally well trained. Can't say the same about the flagsmashers.

Now, we can argue about their skills all you want, but this isn't a pure H2H fight. Sub-Zero has his powers here and there's nothing stopping him from freezing Steve through the floor like he did Scorpion, so as far as I'm concerned Bi-Han has this one in the bag.

Captain America was able to throw and knock Spidey around even without using the environment. Considering that Cap isn't stronger than Spiderman, that means he used pure skill to do so.

Nothing in the movie showed Sub-Zero actually improving in h2h skill. You said it yourself, they won the last 9 tournaments through cheating. We also see just how much Sub-Zero's power has grown in that time. So it seems logical to assume his powers were the ones that grew, not exactly his h2h skill. At least not without concrete proof.

In any case, both Sub-Zero and Captain America have feats of easily defeating inferior opponents. They both have feats of defeating, but struggling against skilled opponents of equal physicality. But Sub-Zero has zero feats of doing well against physically superior opponents where he has to rely purely on skill to survive. That's what makes Cap the more skilled fighter as per feats.

And yes, I agree that Sub Zero wins this fight (though not as easily as other might think). My only disagreement with you was that statement about Sub-Zero being more skilled. Just because he's a ninja doesn't automatically make him more skilled.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Captain America was able to throw and knock Spidey around even without using the environment. Considering that Cap isn't stronger than Spiderman, that means he used pure skill to do so.

Nothing in the movie showed Sub-Zero actually improving in h2h skill. You said it yourself, they won the last 9 tournaments through cheating. We also see just how much Sub-Zero's power has grown in that time. So it seems logical to assume his powers were the ones that grew, not exactly his h2h skill. At least not without concrete proof.

In any case, both Sub-Zero and Captain America have feats of easily defeating inferior opponents. They both have feats of defeating, but struggling against skilled opponents of equal physicality. But Sub-Zero has zero feats of doing well against physically superior opponents where he has to rely purely on skill to survive. That's what makes Cap the more skilled fighter as per feats.

And yes, I agree that Sub Zero wins this fight (though not as easily as other might think). My only disagreement with you was that statement about Sub-Zero being more skilled. Just because he's a ninja doesn't automatically make him more skilled.

More like PIS considering Spider-man manhandled Bucky and Falcon just before.

Bi-Han is a martial artist. It's ridiculous to assume he would develop his ice powers but not his H2H skills. Hanzo came back more powerful as a spectre having mastered hellfire, and he still needed Cole's help to beat Sub-Zero, so he obviously improved over time.

I disagree with this. Steve's victories over more powerful opponents are extremely situational and with a ton of context.

Didn't you say on the first page that you think Sub-Zero is more skilled?

Originally posted by Psychotron
More like PIS considering Spider-man manhandled Bucky and Falcon just before.

Bi-Han is a martial artist. It's ridiculous to assume he would develop his ice powers but not his H2H skills. Hanzo came back more powerful as a spectre having mastered hellfire, and he still needed Cole's help to beat Sub-Zero, so he obviously improved over time.

I disagree with this. Steve's victories over more powerful opponents are extremely situational and with a ton of context.

Didn't you say on the first page that you think Sub-Zero is more skilled?

Yeah, I originally considered him more skilled, but after thinking about it more I'm taking that back. Outside of Scorpion, Sub-Zero never really fought anyone at his physical or power level, so his wins can't be attributed to just his skill.

Yeah he beat Scorpion in h2h but that really isn't any more impressive than Cap beating Bucky or even Crossbones.

He's also never been in a situation where he was physically outmatched by his opponent, as these are usually the best instances where we can truly see if someone is skilled enough to bridge that gap.

If you disagree with me then that's fine. It's not such a huge point that I'm willing to go multiple pages back and forth with you on it. In the end, we both agree Sub-Zero wins the fight overall.

arguing "skill" in forums is harder to debate because people on here always equate any spinny,flashy move that looks cool.to skill. Real skill is being able to counter your opponent, control the fight and dealing actual damage to your opponent quickly and precisely.

Doing a triple backflip kick isn't fighting skill. It's acrobatics. Just because your opponen was choreographed to stand there like a dumbass does not equal skill.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
arguing "skill" in forums is harder to debate because people on here always equate any spinny,flashy move that looks cool.to skill. Real skill is being able to counter your opponent, control the fight and dealing actual damage to your opponent quickly and precisely.

Doing a triple backflip kick isn't fighting skill. It's acrobatics. Just because your opponen was choreographed to stand there like a dumbass does not equal skill.

Which is why I mostly equate skill with how successful one fought vs. how difficult the situation was in which they fought.

In other words, it takes more skill to do a triple backflip kick against a highly skilled opponent takes a lot more skill than doing a triple backflip kick against some random joe.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah, I originally considered him more skilled, but after thinking about it more I'm taking that back. Outside of Scorpion, Sub-Zero never really fought anyone at his physical or power level, so his wins can't be attributed to just his skill.

Yeah he beat Scorpion in h2h but that really isn't any more impressive than Cap beating Bucky or even Crossbones.

He's also never been in a situation where he was physically outmatched by his opponent, as these are usually the best instances where we can truly see if someone is skilled enough to bridge that gap.

If you disagree with me then that's fine. It's not such a huge point that I'm willing to go multiple pages back and forth with you on it. In the end, we both agree Sub-Zero wins the fight overall.

Yes, Bi-Han never fought anyone on his level except Hanzo, this is true. However, Cole did beat a far more powerful opponent (Goro), so we can assume he's pretty skilled, yet he was useless against Sub-Zero.

I don't think I can agree with that. Hanzo is one of the most skilled fighters in history, according to Raiden, and he lost to Bi-Han at the start of Sub-Zero's career.

He has never been physically outmatched, but he has never been outskilled either when fighting an equal (Scorpion).

Fair enough, as long as we agree on who wins.

Originally posted by TheVaultDweller
I'm assuming this is still Steve Rogers Cap? People are going to need to specify in the future to avoid confusion.

Anyway, Sub-Zero's ice powers are too much of an advantage here. What if you remove his ice powers and make it a physical H2H match?

Originally posted by Jmanghan
What if you remove his ice powers and make it a physical H2H match?

Then I'd give it to Steve. Even if we assume Sub-Zero is more skilled (which has been contested by some posters already), it's not enough to counter Steve's stat advantage.

Originally posted by Badabing
I thought you stopped posting year ago. You've just been in this forum. sneer

Its cause I can avoid you here.....biscuits

Originally posted by Estacado
Its cause I can avoid you here.....biscuits You dirty specist! sneer

If h2h then steve definitely wins. But those ice powers can be something else when operating at its potential.