He-Man vs Wonder Woman

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That's your own rule you've just made up.

Did you even bother going through He-Man's durability feats?

Btw He-Man's sword is standard gear for him. I don't think the same is true for WW.

Is it ?

It's not my rule but the rule in general. Otherwise I can make up special attributes for any character without proof. Use your common sense and stop being dumb. Special attributes must be proven, otherwise a forum character doesn't get them.

Yes, none of his feats support him resisting a sword that can cut high herald and trans level characters. Hell He-man has no feats supporting that Logan can't cut him.

WW sword has been standard in every WW thread so far. Not post crisis WW though (the sword is not standard for her).

WW has lassoed Zoom while Zoom was in full speed mode (multiple images of him acting simultaneously). It's fair to say that He-man is far slower than Zoom.
No one here would say that He-man is close in speed to WW, unless they are trolling.

carver9

Makes my stomach hurt agreeing with Dark but she mentions Amazo being faster than Superman but later on block heat vision blasts coming at her at Super Speed.

https://ibb.co/ZVjHyPD
https://ibb.co/HpqwcgM

-Pr-

Originally posted by carver9
Makes my stomach hurt agree with Dark but she mentions Amazo being faster than Superman but later on block heat vision blasts coming at her at Super Speed.

https://ibb.co/ZVjHyPD
https://ibb.co/HpqwcgM

You should agree with Dark; he knows more than you.

carver9

Originally posted by -Pr-
You should agree with Dark; he knows more than you.

Lol... no he doesn't. There are only a couple of people here I give that title to and one of them don't post here anymore.

DarkSaint85

I'm going to have to see how fast he can spam these laser blasts. Hurts my stomach to say this, but Carver has posted scans showing WW needing her full concentration, but that scenario is with a speedster spamming multiple blasts.

Then there is the Shattered God feat.

So He-man is going to have to pull some extraordinary machine gun laser blasts with the sword to be able to get past her defence.

Diesldude

Originally posted by Stoic
The lasso isn't always her go to move, and neither of them are blood thirsty killers, so all of this hackem up shit would be kind of OOC for the both of them. I'm not saying that they haven't, or wouldn't kill, but they know going in that they both champion good. I think WW is far likely to use lethal force than He-man. The guy from the cartoons avoided killing as much as Superman does.

Oh and I watched an episode of Superfriends on HBO max. Man what was acceptable in those days was completely different then what is now.

They went down a whirlpool to an underground world with bad tar men. In order to escape they drilled up which flooded and destroyed the underground world and the tar men along with all the other plant and animal species. At end of the show they said that the tar men were only alive due to an accident in nature and should have died out a long time ago and because of an accident are now extinct.

carver9

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Hurts my stomach to say this, but Carver

laughing out loud

-Pr-

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... no he doesn't. There are only a couple of people here I give that title to and one of them don't post here anymore.

See? You're wrong about that too.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
It's not my rule but the rule in general.

Show me where this rule is stated.

Originally posted by h1a8
Otherwise I can make up special attributes for any character without proof.

You do that all the time.

Originally posted by h1a8
Use your common sense and stop being dumb.

Ironic.

Originally posted by h1a8
Special attributes must be proven, otherwise a forum character doesn't get them.

Special attributes includes Wonder Woman's ability to shred up an planetary level indestructible being.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes, none of his feats support him resisting a sword that can cut high herald and trans level characters. Hell He-man has no feats supporting that Logan can't cut him.

Waiting for her feats on that. Has to be Superman level strength with magical resistance.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW sword has been standard in every WW thread so far. Not post crisis WW though (the sword is not standard for her).

Excatly it's not even standard, yet your whole argument is she slices He-Man up. When HE's the one with the Sword of Power as standard gear.

If non-standard weapons comes into this then he has his full armour and shield which makes her slicing him that much more difficult.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW has lassoed Zoom while Zoom was in full speed mode (multiple images of him acting simultaneously). It's fair to say that He-man is far slower than Zoom.

Funny I remember it being the other way around.

Originally posted by h1a8
No one here would say that He-man is close in speed to WW, unless they are trolling.

No trolling is just making random statements like that.

Not only does He-Man have considerable speed, fast enough to create tonadoes, but he has a massive strength advantage which he can use to create shockwaves and Earthquakes, and he has energy attacks.

Oh and did I mention his Shield as an additional accessory ?

DarkSaint85

Tbf, WW's sword cut Darkseid just fine.

And he survived a planetary explosion.

And this is when WW lassoed Zoom:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/6/61967/1260940-ww_owns_zoom.jpg

But what would you like for 'magic resistance'? Darkseid after all feeds on godly magic, and he was still cut. She has cut Cheetah ( a magical being).

Still, however, I can't see He-man defending against the lasso.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Show me where this rule is stated.

You do that all the time.

Ironic.

Special attributes includes Wonder Woman's ability to shred up an planetary level indestructible being.

Waiting for her feats on that. Has to be Superman level strength with magical resistance.

So you basically telling me to prove that we are not allowed to claim special attributes without proof?

In other words, since there is no forum rule then I can make up special attributes for any character and don't have to provide proof.

Now you are trolling the thread. Please stop.

Again WW has cut high Herald and Trans level beings with her sword. The sword was stated to slice electrons off atoms.
All high heralds and Trans beings can survive planetary destruction. So that feat isn't impressive at all.

This isn't post crisis WW. OP says no post crisis. Pre crisis and post crisis are the only WW'S with no sword as standard equipment.
N52 and rebirth WW has the sword.

Prove that He man is faster than Zoom then since you remember it that way. I'll be impressed if you showed me he man being faster than Spider-Man in combat.

A character who moves in relation to light speed or faster would make a statue out of someone who creates tornados. Lmao
That's an astronomical difference buddy.
All superspeed isn't equal.

I don't care what he man can do, if he's moving in super slow motion or a statue then it all becomes irrelevant.

DarkSaint85

Just to point out, it was Kingdom Come WW whose sword could shave electrons off an atom.

Mainstream WW could *only* cut atoms in half.

Couple that level of sharpness with her level of skill, speed and strength....I mean, we see what a relatively human strength level guy in Wolverine can do with his claws, now imagine he had herald level strength behind his strikes.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbf, WW's sword cut Darkseid just fine.

And he survived a planetary explosion.

But what would you like for 'magic resistance'? Darkseid after all feeds on godly magic, and he was still cut. She has cut Cheetah ( a magical being).

Fair enough argument to say she could cut him. Although cutting is different to dismembering which. And he still has his shield and full armour (all extra accessories is fair game if WW gets her sword in this).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And this is when WW lassoed Zoom:

https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/6/61967/1260940-ww_owns_zoom.jpg

.

Appreciate the scan. Although I see little evidence there that Wonder Woman was moving near Zoom level of speed. Seems more like her versatility winning out over a much faster opponent.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Still, however, I can't see He-man defending against the lasso.

That's probably the best argument against He-Man.

Although what's the argument here, that she Lassos him then chops at him with her sword ?

h1a8's argument so far hasn't involved use of her lasso. Just speed and sword.

DarkSaint85

My argument is just that she lassos him and then tells him to forfeit. None of this killing and chopping malarkey, we're not in the 90s anymore......

qwertyuiop1998

Originally posted by Darth Thor

Although what's the argument here, that she Lassos him then chops at him with her sword ?

h1a8's argument so far hasn't involved use of her lasso. Just speed and sword.
Originally posted by Galan007
Dianna vs. Phantom Stranger:
https://i.ibb.co/PCnSLR5/Wonder-Woman-758-002.jpg https://i.ibb.co/p0fsshw/Wonder-Woman-758-003.jpg https://i.ibb.co/rbTGFkk/Wonder-Woman-758-004.jpg https://i.ibb.co/VMRn4Hm/Wonder-Woman-758-005.jpg

https://i.ibb.co/5GGwSBB/Wonder-Woman-758-006.jpg https://i.ibb.co/C2Mc7x9/Wonder-Woman-758-007.jpg https://i.ibb.co/WWNN2DQ/Wonder-Woman-758-008.jpg https://i.ibb.co/bLFM4Lg/Wonder-Woman-758-009.jpg

laughing out loud

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
So you basically telling me to prove that we are not allowed to claim special attributes without proof?

In other words, since there is no forum rule then I can make up special attributes for any character and don't have to provide proof.

Now you are trolling the thread. Please stop.

No, I'm saying when it's an immovable object vs an unstoppable force, neither side can claim they don't need proof. Both have to give their arguments. Neither gets the benefit of the doubt.

Originally posted by h1a8
Again WW has cut high Herald and Trans level beings with her sword.

What do you mean Again? You haven't said this before. You need to give clear examples. Scans are preferable, because you really aren't that trustworthy. Like you made out WW lasso'd Zoom with some kind of super speed that He-Man doesn't possess. Looking at the scan makes your claim pretty suspect.

Zoom is clearly much faster than WW.

Originally posted by h1a8
The sword was stated to slice electrons off atoms.
All high heralds and Trans beings can survive planetary destruction. So that feat isn't impressive at all.

So again Immovable object vs Unstoppable force.

Originally posted by h1a8
This isn't post crisis WW. OP says no post crisis. Pre crisis and post crisis are the only WW'S with no sword as standard equipment.
N52 and rebirth WW has the sword.

So why are you talking about her showing against Zoom when she had no sword in that scan ? Be consistent at least.

But just to be clear, OP says No PRE-CRISIS Feats. Post Crisis is a lot more than just N52 and Rebirth. Lasso'ing Zoom seems very post crisis.

This is what I mean that your words alone simply can't be trusted. So you above all people need to back shit up.

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that He man is faster than Zoom then since you remember it that way. I'll be impressed if you showed me he man being faster than Spider-Man in combat.

Why exactly does He-Man need to be faster than Zoom ?

He-Man can run at super speeds. He's also punched at super speeds. Go back to the Respect thread. I realise most the links aren't working anymore, but at least read the descriptions of the feats.

This is a smaller showing of him running at super speed.

Carrying Teela running from an explosion:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVEyLO5C85I

Originally posted by h1a8
A character who moves in relation to light speed or faster would make a statue out of someone who creates tornados. Lmao
That's an astronomical difference buddy.
All superspeed isn't equal.

Proof of lightspeed please.

Originally posted by h1a8
I don't care what he man can do, if he's moving in super slow motion or a statue then it all becomes irrelevant.

Not really. That's just your head canon.

Just like WW can lasso a much faster opponent with versatility, so can He-Man tag faster opponents with versatility.

DarkSaint85

She still needs speed to be able to lasso Zoom. I mean, would Alfred or Jarvis be able to do it if they were handed the lasso?

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
She still needs speed to be able to lasso Zoom. I mean, would Alfred or Jarvis be able to do it if they were handed the lasso?

No one's arguing she doesn't have speed. I even said in my first post that she has the speed "advantage."

But h1a8 is making out that unless He-Man's speed =/> Zoom's, then he gets decapitated.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No, I'm saying when it's an immovable object vs an unstoppable force, neither side can claim they don't need proof. Both have to give their arguments. Neither gets the benefit of the doubt.

But I did. You just miss them. I stated WW has cut up a high herald (or trans) level being. Darkseid is the example. Darkseid also survived planetary explosions.

Please start reading my comments more thoroughly. I'm getting tired of repeating myself because of what you didn't read or understand.

Proof that WW lassoed Zoom at near light speed or above:

Zoom had 4 clones he was producing nearly simultaneously. Each clone appeared solid (not a ghostlike afterimage) and acting independently of the others. To achieve such a thing then Zoom's perceptions had to be at least light speed (else the images become ghostlike and not solid looking). So if WW lassoed Zoom then she had to be moving at a speed beyond (or equal) to his perceptions. Otherwise, Zoom would have saw her in slow motion (or as a statue) and easily avoided the lasso.

The sword is irrelevant. This is about her speed.

I misread the OP. No pre-crisis feats. All other feats are excepted.

Either you are having fun with me or you have no clue how fast WW is.
That feat is utter garbage. he-man ran at what 100mph? WW is more than millions of times faster than what he-man did in that clip.
Proving that he-man is faster than a human (has superspeed) doesn't prove he can contend with any type of superspeed.

I think even Carv knows WW is far faster than He-man. I get it. I loved he-man too growing up (he was my favorite, even over superman). I draw him more than any other character in my life. I had almost all the toys, watched all the episodes, etc. So I have more ammunition to be bias here towards him. But I can't lie to myself. Speed is one of those things that makes fights unfair. It can be so advantageous that it is equivalent to stopping time. I can't just ignore that.
Now if speed was equalized then I might give He-man a majority here (I have no problem with that).

DarkSaint85

I mean...how does that He-Man feat stack up against Flash?

https://imgur.com/a/JutpM

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
But I did. You just miss them. I stated WW has cut up a high herald (or trans) level being. Darkseid is the example. Darkseid also survived planetary explosions.

Yeah she's slashed Mongul as well. I am aware. But firstly, cutting is very different to dismembering. Second Wonder Woman's sword is magic based which certainly helps against non-magical beings.

Originally posted by h1a8
Please start reading my comments more thoroughly. I'm getting tired of repeating myself because of what you didn't read or understand.

This is an attempt to retract your original point where you clearly made out He-Man needs to be faster than Zoom to compete.

Originally posted by h1a8
Proof that WW lassoed Zoom at near light speed or above:

Zoom had 4 clones he was producing nearly simultaneously. Each clone appeared solid (not a ghostlike afterimage) and acting independently of the others. To achieve such a thing then Zoom's perceptions had to be at least light speed (else the images become ghostlike and not solid looking). So if WW lassoed Zoom then she had to be moving at a speed beyond (or equal) to his perceptions. Otherwise, Zoom would have saw her in slow motion (or as a statue) and easily avoided the lasso.

You're so full of crap. When Thor hits Quicksilver you call it PIS. When WW throws her Lasso at speedsters then suddenly she's a legit Lightspeeder by default erm

There's literally no indication there she was herself moving at lightspeed. None at all.

Tell me this then, how fast would you have to be to go toe to toe with Silver Age Superman?

Originally posted by h1a8
The sword is irrelevant. This is about her speed.

So far you've done a terrible job of justifying that she's fast enough to speed blitz He-Man.

Originally posted by h1a8
I misread the OP. No pre-crisis feats. All other feats are excepted.

It was actually a typical example of you spewing lies and portraying them as facts. Like it was once sentence in the OP, not difficult to check before you spew a nonsense rebuttal.

Originally posted by h1a8
Either you are having fun with me or you have no clue how fast WW is.
That feat is utter garbage. he-man ran at what 100mph? WW is more than millions of times faster than what he-man did in that clip.
Proving that he-man is faster than a human (has superspeed) doesn't prove he can contend with any type of superspeed.

Are you dense? I specifically said GO TO THE RESPECT THREAD, and that this is just a small taste. You already challenged me to show he can move faster than Spider-Man, that small feat clearly proves that.

He's run much much faster.

Although I do find it amusing you didn't respond by showing me Wonder Woman running faster.

Originally posted by h1a8
I think even Carv knows WW is far faster than He-man.

My first post here admits she has the speed "advantage". And yet you accuse me of having reading comprehension problems.

Originally posted by h1a8
Now if speed was equalized then I might give He-man a majority here (I have no problem with that).

Nah he doesn't need made up stips. He's considerably stronger and fast enough.

Her lasso may pose a problem though, and that's the best argument that's been brought up on her end (not brought up by you though).

DarkSaint85

I just want to point out with Darkseid - in the instance I am thinking of, he was absorbing Zeus' powers at the time - so he was definitely magical in nature as well.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah she's slashed Mongul as well. I am aware. But firstly, cutting is very different to dismembering. Second Wonder Woman's sword is magic based which certainly helps against non-magical beings.

This is an attempt to retract your original point where you clearly made out He-Man needs to be faster than Zoom to compete.

You're so full of crap. When Thor hits Quicksilver you call it PIS. When WW throws her Lasso at speedsters then suddenly she's a legit Lightspeeder by default erm

There's literally no indication there she was herself moving at lightspeed. None at all.

Tell me this then, how fast would you have to be to go toe to toe with Silver Age Superman?

So far you've done a terrible job of justifying that she's fast enough to speed blitz He-Man.

It was actually a typical example of you spewing lies and portraying them as facts. Like it was once sentence in the OP, not difficult to check before you spew a nonsense rebuttal.

Are you dense? I specifically said GO TO THE RESPECT THREAD, and that this is just a small taste. You already challenged me to show he can move faster than Spider-Man, that small feat clearly proves that.

He's run much much faster.

Although I do find it amusing you didn't respond by showing me Wonder Woman running faster.

My first post here admits she has the speed "advantage". And yet you accuse me of having reading comprehension problems.

Nah he doesn't need made up stips. He's considerably stronger and fast enough.

Her lasso may pose a problem though, and that's the best argument that's been brought up on her end (not brought up by you though).
Thor never tagged quicksilver. Thor struck the ground.
Let's keep this simple.

The feat you showed of he-man running was pathetic. He didn't even appear to run over 100mph (and I'm being generous).

You are very aware of WW'S speed feats.
You have to prove that He-man is faster than a bullet (reflexes and movement speed within battle distance).
Failure to do is means a concession.

Note: bullet speed is still not enough to not be statued by WW.
But bullet speed or better is your first challenge. Now you can go for the gusto and give his best feat speed (relevant to combat speed).

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Thor never tagged quicksilver. Thor struck the ground.
Let's keep this simple.

IOW he hit Quicksilver not with his fists but via AOE attacks. Much like Wonder Woman did not punch Flash.

As for punching/strikes Has Thor ever hit Silver Surfer? Has he ever hit Gladiator?

Originally posted by h1a8
The feat you showed of he-man running was pathetic. He didn't even appear to run over 100mph (and I'm being generous).

You challenged me to show him moving faster than Spider-Man. Pretty sure running at 100mph qualifies. That pathetic showing is also faster than you've shown me Wonder Woman moving, which is more about how bad you are at making your case tbh.

And Thanks for being too lazy to go read his better speed feats from the respect thread. Highlights your ignorance on the matter.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are very aware of WW'S speed feats.

I'm aware she didn't speed blitz Mongul in Crisis. So have no reason to believe she will speed blitz a guy who can move like this (go to 1:54:27):

t5wZWZ6umxI&list=LL&index=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5wZWZ6umxI&list=LL&index=1

Originally posted by h1a8
You have to prove that He-man is faster than a bullet (reflexes and movement speed within battle distance).
Failure to do is means a concession.

Note: bullet speed is still not enough to not be statued by WW.
But bullet speed or better is your first challenge. Now you can go for the gusto and give his best feat speed (relevant to combat speed).

Would you admit someone whose punched Flash must be at least significantly faster than a bullet?

Still waiting for massively superior speed feats from Wonder Woman (and it has to be significantly better as that's your claim), otherwise it's your concession I'll be accepting.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
IOW he hit Quicksilver not with his fists but via AOE attacks. Much like Wonder Woman did not punch Flash.

As for punching/strikes Has Thor ever hit Silver Surfer? Has he ever hit Gladiator?

You challenged me to show him moving faster than Spider-Man. Pretty sure running at 100mph qualifies. That pathetic showing is also faster than you've shown me Wonder Woman moving, which is more about how bad you are at making your case tbh.

And Thanks for being too lazy to go read his better speed feats from the respect thread. Highlights your ignorance on the matter.

I'm aware she didn't speed blitz Mongul in Crisis. So have no reason to believe she will speed blitz a guy who can move like this (go to 1:54:27):

t5wZWZ6umxI&list=LL&index=1

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t5wZWZ6umxI&list=LL&index=1

Would you admit someone whose punched Flash must be at least significantly faster than a bullet?

Still waiting for massively superior speed feats from Wonder Woman (and it has to be significantly better as that's your claim), otherwise it's your concession I'll be accepting.

You tagging someone, in fiction, who possesses superspeed doesn't automatically prove you have superspeed on their level. You have to prove that the tagged character was operating at high speed (reflexes and all) when you tagged them.

I proved that Zoom was operating at very high speed and perceptions when WW lassoed him. He was in a mode where a bullet would be frozen to him.

Spider-Man has traveled far faster than 100mph. He's traveled faster bullets multiple times. Here is just a few off the top of my head:

He once traveled a greater distance than rifle bullets in less time in order to block them from hitting someone.
He once ran and hopped 2 miles in 5 seconds (almost Mach 2).
He once outran two homing bullets.

You don't understand the vast differences of superspeed. For example, the speed of a bullet is more than 8x faster than 100mph.
The speed of light is more than 750,000 times faster than a 9mm bullet (which is significantly faster than 100mph).

To you, It's like all one has to do is prove that they have some form of superspeed (no matter how small) to contend with WW.
Just being 2x faster is an insane advantage and WW would stomp. But the fact is, WW is more than 1000x faster than he-man.
This is a forum fight, not a comic fight where PIS plays a role.

Characters fight at full capacity here. WW speed advantage coupled with her lasso and sword makes this a stomp.

P.S. just because WW has a lasso and sword doesn't mean she will use them straight out the gate or in such a manner that's out of character. But she does reserve the right to use them in a manner that prevents her from losing if she knows she has no other choice.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
You tagging someone, in fiction, who possesses superspeed doesn't automatically prove you have superspeed on their level. You have to prove that the tagged character was operating at high speed (reflexes and all) when you tagged them.

Oh really so I could just shoot Flash in the face as long as he's not running at super speed at the time I decide to take my shot?

Originally posted by h1a8
I proved that Zoom was operating at very high speed and perceptions when WW lassoed him. He was in a mode where a bullet would be frozen to him.

There was literally no hint of her moving at super speed in that panel. It seemed more of a skill, co-orindation and versatility move. You can assume all you want, but there's nothing on panel to indicate she herself was moving lightspeed.

Whilst it was very clear that Zoom and Flash were moving very fast.

Doesn't matter what mode he was in if it was just a matter of CIS on his part.

Originally posted by h1a8
Spider-Man has traveled far faster than 100mph. He's traveled faster bullets multiple times. Here is just a few off the top of my head:

He once traveled a greater distance than rifle bullets in less time in order to block them from hitting someone.
He once ran and hopped 2 miles in 5 seconds (almost Mach 2).
He once outran two homing bullets.

If you're not going to provide scans, you could at least refer to the issue so I can look it up myself. Given you are the least trustworthy poster when it comes to describing feats. Heck you can't even be trusted to correctly reflect the OP in this very thread!

Spider-Man doesn't "Run" at those kind of speeds as far as I know, but he does have enhanced reflexes, but I would love to see him actually Outrunning bullets.

There's nothing of Spider-Man running like that. Also note He-Man was carrying Teela, so wouldn't achieve his top speed noted in the last post of the Respect thread (by me). Because that would no doubt kill her.

Regardless Spider-Man can't move as fast as I've shown you He-Man spinning in my last post.

Originally posted by h1a8
You don't understand the vast differences of superspeed. For example, the speed of a bullet is more than 8x faster than 100mph.
The speed of light is more than 750,000 times faster than a 9mm bullet (which is significantly faster than 100mph).

Nice but you haven't shown me Wonder Woman moving at those speeds, and you certainly haven't shown me Wonder Woman speed blitzing someone as fast as He-Man. And let's not forget his potential AOE attacks.

And Tell me how fast does one have to be to deflect Heat Vision without even knowing your opponent has Heat Vision ? And include in your math that the opponent approached He-Man when his back was tuned to him.

Originally posted by h1a8
But the fact is, WW is more than 1000x faster than he-man.

Strange you are having such a hard time proving this.

Originally posted by h1a8
Characters fight at full capacity here. WW speed advantage coupled with her lasso and sword makes this a stomp.

Her sword isn't even standard. But LMAO that this is some kind of stomp for WW.

Originally posted by h1a8
P.S. just because WW has a lasso and sword doesn't mean she will use them straight out the gate or in such a manner that's out of character. But she does reserve the right to use them in a manner that prevents her from losing if she knows she has no other choice.

She doesn't get her sword as standard, so that's like a scenario B if she can't win without it. Without it best case for her is restraining He-Man in her lasso.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh really so I could just shoot Flash in the face as long as he's not running at super speed at the time I decide to take my shot?

There was literally no hint of her moving at super speed in that panel. It seemed more of a skill, co-orindation and versatility move. You can assume all you want, but there's nothing on panel to indicate she herself was moving lightspeed.

Whilst it was very clear that Zoom and Flash were moving very fast.

Doesn't matter what mode he was in if it was just a matter of CIS on his part.

If you're not going to provide scans, you could at least refer to the issue so I can look it up myself. Given you are the least trustworthy poster when it comes to describing feats. Heck you can't even be trusted to correctly reflect the OP in this very thread!

Spider-Man doesn't "Run" at those kind of speeds as far as I know, but he does have enhanced reflexes, but I would love to see him actually Outrunning bullets.

There's nothing of Spider-Man running like that. Also note He-Man was carrying Teela, so wouldn't achieve his top speed noted in the last post of the Respect thread (by me). Because that would no doubt kill her.

Regardless Spider-Man can't move as fast as I've shown you He-Man spinning in my last post.

Nice but you haven't shown me Wonder Woman moving at those speeds, and you certainly haven't shown me Wonder Woman speed blitzing someone as fast as He-Man. And let's not forget his potential AOE attacks.

And Tell me how fast does one have to be to deflect Heat Vision without even knowing your opponent has Heat Vision ? And include in your math that the opponent approached He-Man when his back was tuned to him.

Strange you are having such a hard time proving this.

Her sword isn't even standard. But LMAO that this is some kind of stomp for WW.

She doesn't get her sword as standard, so that's like a scenario B if she can't win without it. Without it best case for her is restraining He-Man in her lasso.

So basically the writer intended for WW to be moving slowly in order for her to lasso one of the fastest beings in comics WHILE said character was moving and perceiving things at light speed or better?
The writer somehow wrote Zoom as wanting to be lassoed without showing the audience of this?

WW doesn't have to speed blitz He-Man.
She can move her arms at light speed or faster and can perceive light speed movement.
Therefore, she can swing on he-man faster than he can move a millimeter. She can perceive him in super slow motion and easily avoid any of his attacks.

She can ko he-man. But her sword is standard and have been standard for years now. You don't have the authority to change the rules on that matter.

Checkm8

He-man is a gentleman, he only mauls other dudes when they misbehave

Checkm8

Let the female sect deal with the females, and the male sect deal with the males that's all

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
So basically the writer intended for WW to be moving slowly in order for her to lasso one of the fastest beings in comics WHILE said character was moving and perceiving things at light speed or better?

Clearly not given she wasn't shown moving at super speed.

It seemed to be more showing that skill can be > speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
The writer somehow wrote Zoom as wanting to be lassoed without showing the audience of this?

Obviously because fact is he's way way faster than WW. The guy has blitzed the whole JL combined.

Originally posted by h1a8
WW doesn't have to speed blitz He-Man.
She can move her arms at light speed or faster and can perceive light speed movement.
Therefore, she can swing on he-man faster than he can move a millimeter. She can perceive him in super slow motion and easily avoid any of his attacks.

She can ko he-man. But her sword is standard and have been standard for years now. You don't have the authority to change the rules on that matter.

Evidence bro. Evidence.

Your fantasy script of how the fight goes doesn't count.

And when you provide your evidence don't forget she has to do this to a guy with vast superhuman speed himself.

Diesldude

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Clearly not given she wasn't shown moving at super speed.

It seemed to be more showing that skill can be > speed.

Obviously because fact is he's way way faster than WW. The guy has blitzed the whole JL combined.

Evidence bro. Evidence.

Your fantasy script of how the fight goes doesn't count.

And when you provide your evidence don't forget she has to do this to a guy with vast superhuman speed himself. yup i can agree that it was skill and coordination.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by Diesldude
yup i can agree that it was skill and coordination.

thumb up

Im sure some level of speed perception was also involved.

DarkSaint85

Carver, what speed feats does WW have?

CosmicComet

You can't 'skill' and 'coordinate' your way into lassoing someone who is fast enough to be a blur to you. WW's feat required perception speed good enough to perceive Zoom.

I love He-Man but he is hopelessly outgunned here due to the speed meta. The best speed scaling I can think of to give him is through power scaling a statement in which Battle Cat is said to run at the speed of light.

So if Light Speed(+ or -) is all He-Man has...he gets blitzed.

If speed were equalized I would give it to He Man.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Clearly not given she wasn't shown moving at super speed.

It seemed to be more showing that skill can be > speed.

Obviously because fact is he's way way faster than WW. The guy has blitzed the whole JL combined.

Evidence bro. Evidence.

Your fantasy script of how the fight goes doesn't count.

And when you provide your evidence don't forget she has to do this to a guy with vast superhuman speed himself.

Prove that she wasnt moving at superspeed. So she lassoed Zoom moving at regular non super speed?

Evidence of what? That she can move her arms at near light speed or better? That she can perceive light speed attacks?

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Prove that she wasnt moving at superspeed. So she lassoed Zoom moving at regular non super speed?

Evidence of what? That she can move her arms at near light speed or better? That she can perceive light speed attacks?

I don't need to prove a negative. The scan showed Zoom moving at super speed, but not her. And we Know Zoom got tagged because he wasn't trying his best because we Know at his best he can blitz the whole JL.

Yes prove any of that. But mostly that she can speed blitz a guy fast enough to turn sand into glass within seconds:

@1:37:55

v=K8t5Uwtyau8&list=LL&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8t5Uwtyau8&list=LL&index=3

I'm sure it's something Spider-Man can do right?

I've already shown him spinning at super speeds. But just in case you thought it was a one off, he does it again in that same video @ 2:39:33

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I don't need to prove a negative. The scan showed Zoom moving at super speed, but not her. And we Know Zoom got tagged because he wasn't trying his best because we Know at his best he can blitz the whole JL.

Yes prove any of that. But mostly that she can speed blitz a guy fast enough to turn sand into glass within seconds:

@1:37:55

v=K8t5Uwtyau8&list=LL&index=3

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8t5Uwtyau8&list=LL&index=3

I'm sure it's something Spider-Man can do right?

I've already shown him spinning at super speeds. But just in case you thought it was a one off, he does it again in that same video @ 2:39:33

I proved that she was moving at superspeed (near light speed or beyond). She moved faster than Zoom's perceptions. Zoom was perceiving events at near light speed or beyond.

At this point you are trolling.

WW can move near light speed or beyond. This is facts.
He-man is over 1000x slower.

End Thread.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
I proved that she was moving at superspeed (near light speed or beyond). She moved faster than Zoom's perceptions. Zoom was perceiving events at near light speed or beyond.

At this point you are trolling.

WW can move near light speed or beyond. This is facts.
He-man is over 1000x slower.

End Thread.

No you haven't. All you've shown is that she tagged a speedster.

How's that any different to Spider-Man whacking Quicksilver or Speed Demon?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=F7dqZyko&id=7DF73C81C035F8F4CEFB47D99219E6B7CD8F4880&thid=OIP.F7dqZykoMGpupnetyLaM7gHaLC&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fcomicvine1.cbsistatic.com%2fuploads%2fscale_super%2f0%2f3853%2f1205399-qs2.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR. 17b76a672928306a6ea677adc8b68cee%3frik%3dgEiPzbfmG
ZLZRw%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=1920&expw=1288&q=spider-man+vs+quicksilver&simid=608030458559660306&ck=B587CA20D158676B688EC872F8526762&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

Oh and did I mention He-Man already punched Flash in the face?

You also love assuming how fast Wonder Woman MUST have been moving, but keep failing to address how fast He-Man would have to be to deflect Heat Vision without even knowing his opponent (fake Superman) has Heat Vision:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=BX9eWlXZ&id=4851C87BADCBFEE37B6D4070DD1AE345E9A77CD0&thid=OIP.BX9eWlXZxBhOdkrrru46mAHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi.ytimg.com%2fvi%2fZnQhopD1zHM%2fhqdefault.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR. 057f5e5a55d9c4184e764aebaeee3a98%3frik%3d0Hyn6UXjG
t1wQA%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=360&expw=480&q=he-man+vs+justice+league&simid=608012204947821437&ck=197E25DCE5A878DE2CF1141027277394&selectedIndex=24&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

You have no argument here, and I'm laughing that you're unable to show me Wonder Woman moving faster than the speed feats I've shown for He-Man. Let alone Wonder Woman speed blitzing someone as fast and as strong as him.

I mean He-Man has already fought and defeated Injustice Superman. Is Wonder Woman faster than Injustice Superman ?

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
No you haven't. All you've shown is that she tagged a speedster.

How's that any different to Spider-Man whacking Quicksilver or Speed Demon?

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=F7dqZyko&id=7DF73C81C035F8F4CEFB47D99219E6B7CD8F4880&thid=OIP.F7dqZykoMGpupnetyLaM7gHaLC&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fcomicvine1.cbsistatic.com%2fuploads%2fscale_super%2f0%2f3853%2f1205399-qs2.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR. 17b76a672928306a6ea677adc8b68cee%3frik%3dgEiPzbfmG
ZLZRw%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=1920&expw=1288&q=spider-man+vs+quicksilver&simid=608030458559660306&ck=B587CA20D158676B688EC872F8526762&selectedIndex=0&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

Oh and did I mention He-Man already punched Flash in the face?

You also love assuming how fast Wonder Woman MUST have been moving, but keep failing to address how fast He-Man would have to be to deflect Heat Vision without even knowing his opponent (fake Superman) has Heat Vision:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=BX9eWlXZ&id=4851C87BADCBFEE37B6D4070DD1AE345E9A77CD0&thid=OIP.BX9eWlXZxBhOdkrrru46mAHaFj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fi.ytimg.com%2fvi%2fZnQhopD1zHM%2fhqdefault.jpg&cdnurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR. 057f5e5a55d9c4184e764aebaeee3a98%3frik%3d0Hyn6UXjG
t1wQA%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=360&expw=480&q=he-man+vs+justice+league&simid=608012204947821437&ck=197E25DCE5A878DE2CF1141027277394&selectedIndex=24&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

You have no argument here, and I'm laughing that you're unable to show me Wonder Woman moving faster than the speed feats I've shown for He-Man. Let alone Wonder Woman speed blitzing someone as fast and as strong as him.

I mean He-Man has already fought and defeated Injustice Superman. Is Wonder Woman faster than Injustice Superman ?
You dont get to determine which form of proof you will accept.
Its impossible to tag someone that is operating at both light speed movement and perceptions without you moving at superspeed.
It wasn't like Zoom was standing still with his powers turned off.

Spider-Man is a speedster and has multiple feats faster than sound. So him tagging speed demon while he is moving fast is legit speed feat for him.

Show He-man striking Flash in the face.

If you don't know that WW can move at least her limbs near the speed of light or beyond then you should not be participating in this thread.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
You dont get to determine which form of proof you will accept.

Ironic.

Originally posted by h1a8
Its impossible to tag someone that is operating at both light speed movement and perceptions without you moving at superspeed.
It wasn't like Zoom was standing still with his powers turned off.

That's your logic and not comic book reality.

Besides You don't get to decide how fast their reflexes are operating at any given time.

Especially when we know as a fact if Zoom was operating at his best he'd blitz Wonder Woman:

https://www.bing.com/images/search?view=detailV2&ccid=%2fUixs8Bc&id=E494E48ADDD9A72805C8CC95F93C5FF3DABDA9A7&thid=OIP._Uixs8BcM58QbxSCZYMgRwHaLj&mediaurl=https%3a%2f%2fth.bing.com%2fth%2fid%2fR. fd48b1b3c05c339f106f148265832047%3frik%3dp6m92vNfP
PmVzA%26riu%3dhttp%253a%252f%252fstatic.comicvine. com%252fuploads%252foriginal%252f4%252f43640%252f1
324566- green_lantern___sinestro_corps_special_01___page_0
6. jpg%26ehk%3dkxS9QVuc4rkCfvWO%252f5msxeyKZuN66F0zNf
HdBSxBTDI%253d%26risl%3d%26pid%3dImgRaw&exph=1998&expw=1280&q=zoom+vs+superman&simid=608005298638903324&ck=93191DE6F5D7F5046029C4BC066BC826&selectedIndex=6&FORM=IRPRST&ajaxhist=0&ajaxserp=0

Originally posted by h1a8
Spider-Man is a speedster and has multiple feats faster than sound. So him tagging speed demon while he is moving fast is legit speed feat for him.

Point is he tagged someone clearly massively faster than he is. Ergo your logic doesn't hold up that if someone is moving at a certain speed then they are automatically reacting to everything at that same speed.

If Spider-Man is a speedster then He-Man is a super speedster. You already challenged me to prove He-Man is faster than Spider-Man, and I passed that challenge with ease.

Originally posted by h1a8
Show He-man striking Flash in the face.

It's right before he deflects Fake Superman's heat vision, @3:49.

v=ZnQhopD1zHM&t=218s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQhopD1zHM&t=218s

I'm not the one who makes shit up here, and unlike you I back up my arguments with feats and showings.

Originally posted by h1a8
If you don't know that WW can move at least her limbs near the speed of light or beyond then you should not be participating in this thread.

And yet you still can't prove it. Hilarious.

Darth Thor

^ Oh and he deflects Heat Vision at 4:12 in that video, and the panel makes it clear he had no idea what Superman's power set was.

You also see @ 4:02 Fake Superman approached to attack him from behind as well.

Just thought I'd point that out in case a miracle happens and you want to tell me honestly just how fast He-Man would have to react and move to manage that. This right after he punches Flash no less.

Adam_PoE

He-Man is invulnerable to most physical harm. He cannot be cut, but he can be blinded, deafened, dizzied, and nausiated. He is also magically-shielded from enchantment and mind control.

He-Man can move so quickly as to turn silica into glass, and reverse tornadoes and whirlpools.

He also wields the indestructible Sword of Power, which can project mystical energy and open inter-dimensional gateways; generate cold, electricity, heat, magnetism, and storms; locate hidden and missing objects and people; transmute inorganic matter; and has uncharted transformational abilities.

h1a8

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
He-Man is invulnerable to most physical harm. He cannot be cut, but he can be blinded, deafened, dizzied, and nausiated. He is also magically-shielded from enchantment and mind control.

He-Man can move so quickly as to turn silica into glass, and reverse tornadoes and whirlpools.

He also wields the indestructible Sword of Power, which can project mystical energy and open inter-dimensional gateways; generate cold, electricity, heat, magnetism, and storms; locate hidden and missing objects and people; transmute inorganic matter; and has uncharted transformational abilities.

You have to prove that He-man can't be cut by anything.
WW has a sword that can slice electrons off atoms and has cut high Herald and Trans beings with ease.

Light is more than a million times faster than a bullet.
I'm pretty sure He-man can turn silica into glass with speeds under bullet speed. That other shit is slow as hell.

WW can perceive and move in relation to light. He-man would be a statue.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
^ Oh and he deflects Heat Vision at 4:12 in that video, and the panel makes it clear he had no idea what Superman's power set was.

You also see @ 4:02 Fake Superman approached to attack him from behind as well.

Just thought I'd point that out in case a miracle happens and you want to tell me honestly just how fast He-Man would have to react and move to manage that. This right after he punches Flash no less. Deflecting HV doesn't show he won't be a statue.
You have to prove several things.
1. How fast is that character's HV?
2. Did the character's eyes glow first or did He-man react ONLY AFTER the beam entered the air.

The problem is that we don't know any of these answers. So it's impossible to claim that He-man deflected a beam of a specific speed by reactioning ONLY AFTER it was in the air.

You didn't show him punching Flash do it doesn't count.

8swords

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by h1a8
You have to prove that He-man can't be cut by anything.
WW has a sword that can slice electrons off atoms and has cut high Herald and Trans beings with ease.

Light is more than a million times faster than a bullet.
I'm pretty sure He-man can turn silica into glass with speeds under bullet speed. That other shit is slow as hell.

WW can perceive and move in relation to light. He-man would be a statue.

You cannot prove a negative.
The Sword of Power can kill gods.
He-Man can deflect laserfire. That means his perception and reaction is faster than light.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by h1a8
Deflecting HV doesn't show he won't be a statue.
You have to prove several things.
1. How fast is that character's HV?
2. Did the character's eyes glow first or did He-man react ONLY AFTER the beam entered the air.

The problem is that we don't know any of these answers. So it's impossible to claim that He-man deflected a beam of a specific speed by reactioning ONLY AFTER it was in the air.

You didn't show him punching Flash do it doesn't count.

Heat-rays and laser beams are both focused energy weapons that travel at lightspeed. The only difference is the wavelength of the radiation, which penetrates different surfaces at different depths. In order to deflect the heat vision of Superman, He-Man had to perceive and react to it faster than light travels.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by CosmicComet
You can't 'skill' and 'coordinate' your way into lassoing someone who is fast enough to be a blur to you.

Yes, one can. It has been demonstrated countless times. A character with superspeed or teleportation appears to be getting the best of a non-superhuman opponent, only to be defeated, because the opponent correctly anticipated his next move. The opponent did not need to be able to match his reflexes, she only needed to be able to recognize a pattern in his behavior.

h1a8

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Heat-rays and laser beams are both focused energy weapons that travel at lightspeed. The only difference is the wavelength of the radiation, which penetrates different surfaces at different depths. In order to deflect the heat vision of Superman, He-Man had to perceive and react to it faster than light travels.

Heat rays don't necessarily travel at light speed. You have a bad habit of stating false things as if they are facts.
Lasers are irrelevant to the discussion.

That wasnt Superman.
You have to prove that particular HV was moving at light speed.
You have to prove that the character's eyes didn't glow first.

Diesldude

h1a8

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
Yes, one can. It has been demonstrated countless times. A character with superspeed or teleportation appears to be getting the best of a non-superhuman opponent, only to be defeated, because the opponent correctly anticipated his next move. The opponent did not need to be able to match his reflexes, she only needed to be able to recognize a pattern in his behavior.

Fact1: Zoom was perceiving things at light speed or beyond.
Conclusion 1:Things like a bullet would be frozen to him.
Conclusion 2: It was impossible for WW to lasso him in that state of perception without moving at least near his perception speed.

h1a8

Originally posted by Diesldude
Why are lasers irrelevant?

Because HV is not a laser and has nothing to do with the feat.

h1a8

The feat is inconclusive.
Superman announced his presence.
Then we see He-man blocking HV.
We do not know what happened right before that.
It is possible for He-man to have turned around with his sword up as a shield right before HV was fired.
There are many other possibilities.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Deflecting HV doesn't show he won't be a statue.

Of course it does.

Originally posted by h1a8
You have to prove several things.
1. How fast is that character's HV?

Fast enough to fool the entire JL including Batman that he was the Real Superman.

That said it's an energy beam. It should be lightspeed.

Originally posted by h1a8
2. Did the character's eyes glow first or did He-man react ONLY AFTER the beam entered the air.

Given he had no idea what Superman's powers were, and given that Fake Superman approached him from behind, I see no reason for that to make a difference.

I mean Hulk and Gambit's eyes glow, doesn't mean you just assume they are about to shoot lasers from their eyes. Heck Skeletor's eyes glow.

Oh and FYI the whole JL eyes were glowing under the infulence of Skeletor. So completely moot point.

Originally posted by h1a8
The problem is that we don't know any of these answers. So it's impossible to claim that He-man deflected a beam of a specific speed by reactioning ONLY AFTER it was in the air.

Yes we do as the context is made clear. Fake Superman approached him from behind, and He-Man had no idea what powers he had.

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't show him punching Flash do it doesn't count.

Yes I did:

Originally posted by Darth Thor

It's right before he deflects Fake Superman's heat vision, @3:49.

v=ZnQhopD1zHM&t=218s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZnQhopD1zHM&t=218s

I'm not the one who makes shit up here, and unlike you I back up my arguments with feats and showings.

It's not at 218seconds like the link says it's at 3:49 like I said. That's 3 minutes and 49 seconds. And I left the link in case the video doesn't play here. So quit making excuses for not seeing it.

Also you haven't shown anything, so per your own logic nothing you've said counts. Ergo you lose by default (per your own logic).

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Of course it does.

Fast enough to fool the entire JL including Batman that he was the Real Superman.

That said it's an energy beam. It should be lightspeed.

Given he had no idea what Superman's powers were, and given that Fake Superman approached him from behind, I see no reason for that to make a difference.

I mean Hulk and Gambit's eyes glow, doesn't mean you just assume they are about to shoot lasers from their eyes. Heck Skeletor's eyes glow.

Oh and FYI the whole JL eyes were glowing under the infulence of Skeletor. So completely moot point.

Yes we do as the context is made clear. Fake Superman approached him from behind, and He-Man had no idea what powers he had.

Yes I did:

It's not at 218seconds like the link says it's at 3:49 like I said. That's 3 minutes and 49 seconds. And I left the link in case the video doesn't play here. So quit making excuses for not seeing it.

Also you haven't shown anything, so per your own logic nothing you've said counts. Ergo you lose by default (per your own logic).

All energy beams aren't light speed.
Again, you have to prove the speed of the HV.
Its inconclusive to what happened prior to we see he man blocking hv. There are many different possible scenario that could have happened.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
All energy beams aren't light speed.

Can you provide an example of one that's not?

Originally posted by h1a8
Again, you have to prove the speed of the HV.

What's the slowest visual energy beam ?

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-speed-of-x-rays

https://www.electronbeamengineering.co.uk/ #:~:text=Electron%20beam%20welding%20%28EBW%29%20i
s%20a%20machine%20controlled,metal%20and%20generat
ing%20the%20processes%20characteristic%20%E2%80%9C
key%20hole%E2%80%9D.

"A focused beam of electrons, velocity approaching 0.5 times the speed of light strike the work piece

Originally posted by h1a8
Its inconclusive to what happened prior to we see he man blocking hv. There are many different possible scenario that could have happened.

It's not inconclusive at all.

We saw what happened prior. Fake Superman approached him from behind.

And right after he punched the Flash no less.

Quit making up shit because you don't like the feats.

I mean this coming from the same guy who claims Wonder Woman is faster than light because she threw her lasso at a speedster. With ZERO visual evidence that she or her Lasso were moving anywhere close to the speed of the speedster.

Darth Thor

X-rays and visible light are both carried by photons meaning that both travel at the speed of light (299,792,458 m/s in a vacuum).

The word "laser" is an acronym for "light amplification by stimulated emission of radiation"

DarkSaint85

Oh you two, lol.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Can you provide an example of one that's not?

What's the slowest visual energy beam ?

https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-speed-of-x-rays

https://www.electronbeamengineering.co.uk/ #:~:text=Electron%20beam%20welding%20%28EBW%29%20i
s%20a%20machine%20controlled,metal%20and%20generat
ing%20the%20processes%20characteristic%20%E2%80%9C
key%20hole%E2%80%9D.

"A focused beam of electrons, velocity approaching 0.5 times the speed of light strike the work piece

It's not inconclusive at all.

We saw what happened prior. Fake Superman approached him from behind.

And right after he punched the Flash no less.

Quit making up shit because you don't like the feats.

I mean this coming from the same guy who claims Wonder Woman is faster than light because she threw her lasso at a speedster. With ZERO visual evidence that she or her Lasso were moving anywhere close to the speed of the speedster.

All energy beams are not the speed of light unless stated or it is a laser. Special attributes must be proven.

Xrays and all the other stuff is irrelevant here. You have to prove that the HV is light speed.

He punched flash when flash wasnt paying attention to him. Cheapshot!

Superman was behind him talking. Then the next scene we him blocking HV. We don't know what happened between time.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
He punched flash when flash wasnt paying attention to him. Cheapshot!

Are you high? He specifically states to focus on the big blonde. And He-Man hits him from in front, not from behind.

Poor excuse given you cant even shoot Flash from behind, let alone from in front of him.

Originally posted by h1a8
Then he should be posting feats where he-man blocks lasers. Blocks them after reacting to them and after the entered the air.

Cheap talk coming from a guy whose posted absolutely zero feats.

The reason I posted the feat is because no ones pulling a trigger, he had no idea Superman has that power, and he was approached from behind. It is obviously an impressive feat even if it isnt light speed.

This right after he punched Flash in the face.

Oh and in another comic he had not only competed against Injustice Superman but had him beat, before unexpectedly reverting back to Prince Adam.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by h1a8
Heat rays don't necessarily travel at light speed. You have a bad habit of stating false things as if they are facts.
Lasers are irrelevant to the discussion.

That wasnt Superman.
You have to prove that particular HV was moving at light speed.
You have to prove that the character's eyes didn't glow first.

You know that heat-rays and laser beams exist outside of fiction, right? That they both travel at lightspeed is an indisputible fact. It is not up for debate.

But let us presume for the sake of argument, that the heat vision of Superman does not travel at the speed of light. He-Man has still deflected laserfire, which does. So your point is both wrong and totally irrelevant.

It was duplicate of Superman down to the last atom, including his weakness to magic, which is how it was under the control of Skeletor.

All of the eyes of the Justice League were glowing while under the magical control of Skeletor. That is no reason for He-Man to believe that any of them can project energy from their eyes. In fact, it is more of a reason to believe that none of them can.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by h1a8
Fact1: Zoom was perceiving things at light speed or beyond.
Conclusion 1:Things like a bullet would be frozen to him.
Conclusion 2: It was impossible for WW to lasso him in that state of perception without moving at least near his perception speed.

Congratulations on reaching a false conclusion from valid premises. All that proves is that one does need to have superspeed to outwit an overconfident speedster, as has been demonstrated countless times throughout fiction.

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by h1a8
Because HV is not a laser and has nothing to do with the feat.

Heat rays and laser beams are real phenomena. Both are focused beams of energy, and both travel at the speed of light. The only difference is the wavelength used to deliver the energy, which affects the depth it penetrates surfaces.

DarkSaint85

I have to say....

What do you guys think of Batman dodging HV then?

Adam_PoE

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have to say....

What do you guys think of Batman dodging HV then?

I think it is poor writing.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I have to say....

What do you guys think of Batman dodging HV then?

About as much as I think of Wonder Woman lassoing Zoom.

Logically though HV is much more difficult to anticipate because it just comes out with a thought. There is no aim, trigger, fire. Unless the user wants to give that warning by glowing his eyes first.

With He-Man in particular though, it was clearly a speed/reaction feat because he had no clue what Supermans power set was. He must have literally moved faster than the HV, and he must have had the speed perception to see it coming.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I think it is poor writing.

But it happens. And Bats has done it before.

Many characters have deflected lasers, in fact.

Moreover, whilst Superman was magically cloned and was a complete copy of the real thing, it still isn't the real thing. Not to mention, crossovers are inadmissible, that was a copy of 'n52 Superman' (so weaker), mind-controlled, PLUS....he even says he was holding back (until He-Man kicked him in the chest).

-Pr-

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I think it is poor writing.

It is. It's also Batman.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
About as much as I think of Wonder Woman lassoing Zoom.

Logically though HV is much more difficult to anticipate because it just comes out with a thought. There is no aim, trigger, fire. Unless the user wants to give that warning by glowing his eyes first.

With He-Man in particular though, it was clearly a speed/reaction feat because he had no clue what Supermans power set was. He must have literally moved faster than the HV, and he must have had the speed perception to see it coming.

Same like WW with Darkseid - who she had just met for the first time and had no clue what he was (she even calls him giant):

https://i.imgur.com/tUJkVka.jpg

And we know the Omega Beams were fast enough to chase Flash and hit Supes:
https://imgur.com/a/Yzszu

AND are able to change direction to hit their target. Yet WW was faster than the beams.

I mean, we both agree WW has the speed advantage, yeah? Now it all depends on WHAT she does with that speed advantage. As long as she has her lasso, it's a win for her.

CosmicComet

He-man doesn't get lightspeed reactions for reacting to HV unless its explicitly stated in the panel to be that fast in that instance or a time frame for his reaction (in the nanosecond level) is given.

HV varies far too much writer to writer. Book to book. Even moment to moment. Just like Cyke's optic blasts.

Tagging Flash while he is mind controlled and talking can simply be chalked up to a CIS moment as opposed to a feat. Don't forget, Flash may be the fastest man alive, but he is also the dumbest when it comes to remembering his own basic abilities.

Even if we give he-man light speed reactions, and I'm ok with doing that through the battle cat statement, that is far too slow to beat WW.

I don't think he man would ever come close to the shattered god feat.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by CosmicComet
He-man doesn't get lightspeed reactions for reacting to HV unless its explicitly stated in the panel to be that fast in that instance or a time frame for his reaction (in the nanosecond level) is given.

HV varies far too much writer to writer. Book to book. Even moment to moment. Just like Cyke's optic blasts.

Tagging Flash while he is mind controlled and talking can simply be chalked up to a CIS moment as opposed to a feat. Don't forget, Flash may be the fastest man alive, but he is also the dumbest when it comes to remembering his own basic abilities.

Even if we give he-man light speed reactions, and I'm ok with doing that through the battle cat statement, that is far too slow to beat WW.

I don't think he man would ever come close to the shattered god feat.

When WW lassoed Flash, he was at pretty high speeds too:
https://imgur.com/a/HxuUk

CosmicComet

Originally posted by Adam_PoE
I think it is poor writing.

That's Batman's super power, to his benefit of course.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Are you high? He specifically states to focus on the big blonde. And He-Man hits him from in front, not from behind.

Poor excuse given you cant even shoot Flash from behind, let alone from in front of him.

Cheap talk coming from a guy whose posted absolutely zero feats.

The reason I posted the feat is because no ones pulling a trigger, he had no idea Superman has that power, and he was approached from behind. It is obviously an impressive feat even if it isnt light speed.

This right after he punched Flash in the face.

Oh and in another comic he had not only competed against Injustice Superman but had him beat, before unexpectedly reverting back to Prince Adam.
I stand corrected.
But remember what I said? It's not the fact that you tag a speedster but that you tag them while they are using speed and reflexes that proves your speed.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by CosmicComet
That's Batman's super power, to his benefit of course.
Tbf, every street worth their salt can do it.

Cap can with lasers (after they've been fired):
https://i.imgur.com/xgsPD2u.jpg

Hell, Logan, caught unawares, is ABLE TO CUT A SHIELD for himself AFTER the laser was fire, lmao:
https://i.imgur.com/TO3pt1B.png

Nightwing:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/scale_medium/11111/111114857/3076219-4273968768-super.jpg

I mean, Gambit....fricking Gambit...can do it, lol:
https://i.imgur.com/SDOTqyx.jpg

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same like WW with Darkseid - who she had just met for the first time and had no clue what he was (she even calls him giant):

https://i.imgur.com/tUJkVka.jpg

And we know the Omega Beams were fast enough to chase Flash and hit Supes:
https://imgur.com/a/Yzszu

AND are able to change direction to hit their target. Yet WW was faster than the beams.

I mean, we both agree WW has the speed advantage, yeah? Now it all depends on WHAT she does with that speed advantage. As long as she has her lasso, it's a win for her.

I agree thats at least equally as impressive. But no ones really denied Wonder Womans speed capabilities. I am however doubting she would speed blitz someone as fast and as strong as He-Man.

Originally posted by h1a8
I stand corrected.
But remember what I said? It's not the fact that you tag a speedster but that you tag them while they are using speed and reflexes that proves your speed.

Not really. Fact is there has to be some PIS/CIS involved, because both Flash and Zoom can blitz either WW or He-Man.

But even though they have been tagged by far less, I will give both He-Man and WW the benefit of the doubt that they must have moved much faster than bullets or sound to tag the speedsters even via PIS/CIS.

CosmicComet

WW has tagged speedsters in situations where they were explicitly going FTL.

Doesn't matter if they could blitz her if they put a little more effort into it. That isn't the question. The question is were they using high levels of super speed when she tagged them and the answer is yes.

He man doesn't have that going for him in his Flash tagging example. Not to mention it was a mind controlled Flash that was standing and talking anyway.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But it happens. And Bats has done it before.

Many characters have deflected lasers, in fact.

Moreover, whilst Superman was magically cloned and was a complete copy of the real thing, it still isn't the real thing. Not to mention, crossovers are inadmissible, that was a copy of 'n52 Superman' (so weaker), mind-controlled, PLUS....he even says he was holding back (until He-Man kicked him in the chest).

I mean street levellers can dodge laser shots, the same way theyd dodge a gun shot. Anticipate their opponents moves. With He-Man though that was pretty impossible. And it is much harder against Eye beams if the user isnt holding back.

As for crossovers, pretty sure that whole He-Man series was published by DC. As for Superman holding back, he clearly gave no warning as to what kind of attack he was going to do, and even then he would hold back on the power of the HV, not its speed.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
WW has tagged speedsters in situations where they were explicitly going FTL.

Doesn't matter if they could blitz her if they put a little more effort into it. That isn't the question. The question is were they using high levels of super speed when she tagged them and the answer is yes.

He man doesn't have that going for him in his Flash tagging example. Not to mention it was a mind controlled Flash that was standing and talking anyway.

But again hows is hat different to Spider-Man tagging Quicksilver when QS was moving around at his top speeds ?

You expect a narrative to state He-Man deflected the HV in a Nano second, but you dont expect any narration or visual cue that WW moved at light speed.

CosmicComet

Street levelers have plenty of examples of dodging lazers after fire as well. As opposed to just aim dodging every single instance.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
I mean street levellers can dodge laser shots, the same way theyd dodge a gun shot. Anticipate their opponents moves. With He-Man though that was pretty impossible. And it is much harder against Eye beams if the user isnt holding back.

As for crossovers, pretty sure that whole He-Man series was published by DC. As for Superman holding back, he clearly gave no warning as to what kind of attack he was going to do, and even then he would hold back on the power of the HV, not its speed.

But again hows is hat different to Spider-Man tagging Quicksilver when QS was moving around at his top speeds ?

You expect a narrative to state He-Man deflected the HV in a Nano second, but you dont expect any narration or visual cue that WW moved at light speed.

Thats because zoom was already moving and perceiving events at light speed or beyond. Fast characters dont always operate with speed and perceptions. But in this case we have proof of it.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Thats because zoom was already moving and perceiving events at light speed or beyond. Fast characters dont always operate with speed and perceptions. But in this case we have proof of it.

You dont know what level he was perceiving at. You dont know he was paying attention to her lasso.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You dont know what level he was perceiving at. You dont know he was paying attention to her lasso.

I do. It was, at minimum, near light speed.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
I do. It was, at minimum, near light speed.

Show me where that's stated.

There's zero indication WW moved at lightspeed in those scans.

Deflecting Darkseids Omega Beams was a more convincing feat of movement speed.

Originally posted by CosmicComet
Street levelers have plenty of examples of dodging lazers after fire as well. As opposed to just aim dodging every single instance.

They've obviously anticipated the attack.

CosmicComet

Originally posted by Darth Thor

But again hows is hat different to Spider-Man tagging Quicksilver when QS was moving around at his top speeds ?

You expect a narrative to state He-Man deflected the HV in a Nano second, but you dont expect any narration or visual cue that WW moved at light speed.

I need to see the example of Spidey vs Quicksilver before I even respond, I think I know which one you speak of and if it's the same example it's not remotely an apple's to apple's comparison.

Quicksilver depending on the decade was slow as hell. More than slow enough for Spidey, who has legitimate lightning timing feats, to be able to land a hit on.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But He-Man hasn't shown any speed feats to show he is in the same tier as her. I mean, I will address the feat being used in my reply to your next post:

That doesn't mean she's blitzing him. Unless you can show her blitzing other opponents with vast superhuman speed like he has displayed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My scans specifically showed Cap only moving AFTER the lasers were fired. Same with Logan. I mean, with Bats its even easier to show:

https://i.postimg.cc/MZ3C65zg/RCO012-1485337935.jpg

Superman has actually fired at Batman, and he manages to move his entire body out of the way before it hits.

I mean that's comic book logic. Which is also why WW throwing a Lasso doesn't necessarily reflect her speed.

That said the HV was shown there moving in slow motion. And Batman knows his opponent.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But my issues with the showing you are using, are:

1. It is a crossover. I understand that it was published by DC, but its still 'DC Universe VS Masters of the Universe'. DC vs Marvel was published by both companies; doesn't make it usable for both companies. Same with JLA/Avengers.
2. It was a magical clone of Superman. You can argue all you want how good a copy it was, it was still a copy. Jane Foster explicitly got given the magical power of Thor; doesn't mean her feats cross to Thor and vice-versa.
3. It was a clone of n52 Superman, who was weaker.
4. He was still holding back, a per his words. I mean, you can argue about whether he can hold back the speed of his HV, but we're talking about comic books here. Maybe he held back by aiming at He-Man's sword, so that it wouldn't be a killing blow, or hurt He-Man.

1. No that whole He-Man line of comics (outside the crossover), was published by DC.

2-3. The argument isn't one of He-Man vs Superman here.

4. It's a a lot of mabye's you're introducing here. We are talking about a guy a shot his eye beams into He-Man's eyes, so see no reason to believe he was massivley holding back or aiming at He-Man's word.

Look one panel Fake Superman was approaching He-Man from behind, then the very next panel He-Man has moved himself and his sword and is defending against a blast of HV, coming from a pretty short range to boot.

So there's no reason to believe that defence was down to anything but speed.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Show me where that's stated.

There's zero indication WW moved at lightspeed in those scans.

Deflecting Darkseids Omega Beams was a more convincing feat of movement speed.

They've obviously anticipated the attack.

Fallacy. Something doesn't have to be stated in order for it to be true or exist.

Just ask me to prove that Zoom was moving with a minimum of near light speed and that his perceptions were just as fast.

You are doing worst though.
1. You are assuming the speed of the HV
2. Your source is unusable.

2. Ends your argument in its tracks.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
Fallacy. Something doesn't have to be stated in order for it to be true or exist. Funny because you want it stated somewhere about the speed of the HV that He-Man blocked.

Originally posted by h1a8
Just ask me to prove that Zoom was moving with a minimum of near light speed and that his perceptions were just as fast.

Again WW was not shown moving at lightspeed at all. Her blocking OE was a much better indication.

Zoom just seemed to be caught off guard.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are doing worst though.
1. You are assuming the speed of the HV

Are we at least in agreement that He-Man must have moved faster than the HV?

Originally posted by h1a8
2. Your source is unusable.

Ive already refuted that. Pay attention please.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That doesn't mean she's blitzing him. Unless you can show her blitzing other opponents with vast superhuman speed like he has displayed.

Like who has displayed? He-Man?

Here, she lassos Amazo up, Amazo who had Flash's speed (and possibly Superman's and hers):
https://i.imgur.com/hR6Wwjp.jpeg

And you can even see how fast Amazo's thinking and reaction speeds are in relation to hers - he's still formulating the word 'Situation'.

And Supergirl, who earlier had been fighting Flash (who, admittedly, wasn't going all out - but my point is, Supergirl is pretty fast:
https://i.imgur.com/DHM4OIX.jpg

And Kara SPECIFICALLY comments on how fast WW is.

No, but Flash just before WW had lassoed him specifically mentions picoseconds and femtoseconds, showing the level he was operating at - he wasn't just running at a leisurely jog when she caught him.

Slow motion from a pissed off Superman who was trying to burn Bats? Where do you get slow motion from? And if THIS is slow motion, then you acknowledge that Superman CAN change the speed of his HV (i.e. it is not constant).

1. And? Still a crossover. Just because it is published by DC, doesn't make it usable for DC character levels, any more than JLA/Avenger being published by DC/Marvel makes it usable for DC/Marvel characters.

2-3 Agreed, but that wasn't my point. My point was that He-Man reacted to a Superman who....has no feats. I mean, I understand there was a reason you brought this specific feat up, which is 'look at how He-Man performs against this common ground character', for comparison. But if the comparator is the fake copy of a weaker version of Supes, well.....

4. Never said 'massively' holding back. But he was holding back, all the same. Which makes that specific feat a bit iffy.

As you acknowledged, Superman can have slowmotion HV. So.....Can you, hand on heart, say that he didn't aim for the sword (and was aiming to wound He-Man), used the full speed HV etc?

Because if you can, then that kinda ignores the whole 'I am holding back' statement, right?

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Funny because you want it stated somewhere about the speed of the HV that He-Man blocked.

No I didn't. Just proof (im not picky on the form of proof as long as it is sound).

How do you know she wasn't shown to be moving that fast?
How would it be possible for her to lasso him when he is not only perceiving things in light speed or greater (bullets are statues) and also moving in complex paths to mimic multiple beings?

If that is true then WW had to move near his perception limit just to distract him. Remember he was looking at her the entire time before those events happened.

Even that is false. One only has to move at a fraction of the speed of an attack in order to block it. For example, he-man moves arms 1 feet in the same time the attack travels multiple feet.
And thats assuming he-man didnt get hit first, had his sword up in defense, etc.

Forum rules buddy.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by h1a8
How do you know she wasn't shown to be moving that fast?
How would it be possible for her to lasso him when he is not only perceiving things in light speed or greater (bullets are statues) and also moving in complex paths to mimic multiple beings?

The panel showed her not moving fast. Whilst the same panel showed Zoom moving super fast.

Originally posted by h1a8
If that is true then WW had to move near his perception limit just to distract him. Remember he was looking at her the entire time before those events happened.

Speculation.

Noting in the comic showed her moving anywhere near that fast.

Originally posted by h1a8
Even that is false. One only has to move at a fraction of the speed of an attack in order to block it. For example, he-man moves arms 1 feet in the same time the attack travels multiple feet.
And thats assuming he-man didnt get hit first, had his sword up in defense, etc.

Was very close range, and he had no idea Superman had that power.

So he had to see the HV coming at him and move his sword in front to protect himself. Given the close range and no way to protect himself, he had to move faster than the HV. Or WORST CASE very close to the same speed.

Originally posted by h1a8
Forum rules buddy.

Not relevant mate. I've already debunked that. Try allowing new information to enter your mind without your bias goggles on.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Like who has displayed? He-Man?

Here, she lassos Amazo up, Amazo who had Flash's speed (and possibly Superman's and hers):
https://i.imgur.com/hR6Wwjp.jpeg

And you can even see how fast Amazo's thinking and reaction speeds are in relation to hers - he's still formulating the word 'Situation'.

That seems to be the entire JL vs Amazo. And no indication he was moving at lightspeed or anything.

I mean if we go down this road then we will have to assume every time Thor or Hulk punch Gladiator or Surfer that they are operating at lightspeed. So do you really want to go there?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And Supergirl, who earlier had been fighting Flash (who, admittedly, wasn't going all out - but my point is, Supergirl is pretty fast:
https://i.imgur.com/DHM4OIX.jpg

And Kara SPECIFICALLY comments on how fast WW is.

Funny because most the dialogue there actually backs up my point about anticipating opponents moves. Efficiency/skill over speed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No, but Flash just before WW had lassoed him specifically mentions picoseconds and femtoseconds, showing the level he was operating at - he wasn't just running at a leisurely jog when she caught him.

And yet still they don't show WW moving at those speeds. At all. Just her throwing her Lasso and catching him. Seems to go back to what she was telling Supergirl about studying and anticipating your opponent.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Slow motion from a pissed off Superman who was trying to burn Bats? Where do you get slow motion from? And if THIS is slow motion, then you acknowledge that Superman CAN change the speed of his HV (i.e. it is not constant).

That's what your scan shows there. Since you insisted Batman only moved AFTER the shot fired. It's stupid as hell taking the scan that literally. Much more likely it's Batman anticipating Superman's moves. And we both know a blood lusted Superman can speed blitz Batman, so somethings clearly off there.

Again though in He-Man's case he was:

1) Approahced from behind
2) Had no idea what Superman's powers were
3) At a much closer distance

And there was no indication there of Massively holding back like you're making out. There was only Superman's surprise at how strong He-Man was when he got booted.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
1. And? Still a crossover. Just because it is published by DC, doesn't make it usable for DC character levels, any more than JLA/Avenger being published by DC/Marvel makes it usable for DC/Marvel characters.

You're not getting the distinction here at all.

DC don't publish Avengers outside crossovers. That whole He-Man series was published by DC. Given that It'd be more like a crossover between Watchmen and the JL than JL and Avengers.

And btw I'm only using these feats because I can't access all He-Man's best speed feats from his own series right now. You've probably noticed how all the links in the Respect thread are f***ed.

That said, deflecting energy beams is something he does all the time. In fact in his 80's series he never seems to get hit. Always blocks/defends or evades.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
2-3 Agreed, but that wasn't my point. My point was that He-Man reacted to a Superman who....has no feats. I mean, I understand there was a reason you brought this specific feat up, which is 'look at how He-Man performs against this common ground character', for comparison. But if the comparator is the fake copy of a weaker version of Supes, well.....

It was about deflecting the HV is all. He also punched Flash right before.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
4. Never said 'massively' holding back. But he was holding back, all the same. Which makes that specific feat a bit iffy.

There's no reason to believe he was holding back on the speed of the HV. He just isn't used to fighting opponents as strong as He-Man.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
As you acknowledged, Superman can have slowmotion HV. So.....Can you, hand on heart, say that he didn't aim for the sword (and was aiming to wound He-Man), used the full speed HV etc?

Because if you can, then that kinda ignores the whole 'I am holding back' statement, right?

Honestly this is really reaching in an attempt to ignore that feat.

The HV was instantly on him as soon as he turned around. And he had to move his sword to deflect the HV. How does it make sense that he moved his sword to deflect nothing and then an evil magically made Superman shot at the sword.

Honestly this is speculating wayyyy too much, when the scene gives little room for that.

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
The panel showed her not moving fast. Whilst the same panel showed Zoom moving super fast.

Speculation.

Noting in the comic showed her moving anywhere near that fast.

Was very close range, and he had no idea Superman had that power.

So he had to see the HV coming at him and move his sword in front to protect himself. Given the close range and no way to protect himself, he had to move faster than the HV. Or WORST CASE very close to the same speed.

Not relevant mate. I've already debunked that. Try allowing new information to enter your mind without your bias goggles on.

In comics, characters dont often get shown moving at all. Its a still picture.
Many frames are skipped and still pictures are drawn. In one scene you see someone fire an automatic weapon at someone. The next scene you see Spider-Man intercept the bullets and save the people they were intended for. But you dont see him move fast (according to your standard). Does that mean he didn't move fast?

Ok cool. So dont talk about the he-man feat if it isn't usable then.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
That seems to be the entire JL vs Amazo. And no indication he was moving at lightspeed or anything.
You asked for opponents who have superspeed. Amazo has superspeed. WW lassoed him before he could even think.

I mean....what is your gripe?

I show WW against enemies - oh, they weren't at that speed.

OK, fair enough.

Except you don't have those showings either, then. I mean, prove Flash was moving at lightspeed when He-Man tagged him?

Most, agreed. But CRUCIALLY, Kara SPECIFICALLY said she was too fast. It's not an either/or situation here - WW has skill (never said she didn't) AND, she has speed.

And her speed.

Nope, nothing off. A bloodlusted Superman was goaded into firing, we CLEARLY see the beams travelling, and THEN Bruce leaps out of the way. We either have to say:

1. Batman anticipated Superman, and waited until the beams were halfway towards him, THEN leapt - an incredible timing feat, I think you'll agree. Imagine jumping after you turn the light on and the beams have travelled 50% of the way to you, lol.

2. Superman can vary the speed of his HV

3. Poor writing, and reacting to HV isn't necessarily proof of one's speed.

Again - I NEVER said he was massively holding back. I have no idea where you get that from. I said he was holding back - as per his own words. He stopped once he got booted - but BEFORE that, he was holding back.

I get the distinction. Its a crossover - which regardless of canonicity, is inadmissible per forum rules.

Yeah, lol.

And Batman gets hit with HV all the time? I mean, I can switch it up to another character I know well - Invisible Woman.

Yes, but as you pointed out - proof Flash was at lightspeed, or at any speed?

I wouldn't say no reason. He literally said he was holding back, lol.

What feats does this evil magical Superman have? Does he have lightspeed reactions? THIS is why I kept bringing up the fact he's a clone - you are making it out like it's a great feat, when we don't cross feats, and he even said he was holding back. Without any proof, your guess is as good as mine - he heard a noise behind him, he whirls around with his sword at the ready in a guard position to fight, and the Superman sees his sword, and fires HV at it so as not to do him serious harm. Holding back.

CosmicComet

The He Man side has almost bupkis to add to the speed argument.

Whereas WW has feats of being able to perceive a Flash thats explicitly operating on the Femtosecond level. I.e. massively faster than light. --and that's not even her best speed feat.

Whereas we're struggling to give He-Man even a light speed feat for reacting to HV that even Batman has reacted to, and the argument of "well supes can probably vary his HV speed" undermines the argument for the He-man side as well, since the magic clone admits to holding back too. Muddying the waters even more.

-So we have massively ftl reaction feats for Diana that aren't even her best feats.

Vs.

-An indeterminable HV blocking feat and an indeterminable Flash tagging feat while Barry happens to be mind controlled, standing still, and talking.

Again even if we give He-Man lightspeed status based on the silver age statement of battle cat running 'almost as fast as light' (which again came from the first crossover with Superman so likely inadmissible), that still puts him way too slow if that's the best he brings to the argument.

I love he man but it seems impossible for him to beat ww in a forum setting/battlezone type argument.

GodofNature

What even is this shit, He Man starts to run and creates a tornado, Wonder Wonam starts to run circles around him and creates 100 tornadoes, and just lassoes him.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

I get the distinction. Its a crossover - which regardless of canonicity, is inadmissible per forum rules.

I've asked for a mod ruling so will give this thread a rest until we have that.

DarkSaint85

I mean, even if it was allowed...

It's still a magical clone of n52 Superman, who was mind-controlled by Skeletor and was STILL holding back, when he fired an energy attack that Batman is able to move his entire body out of the way of.

My point being, the whole 'feat' is so iffy, with so many hmm maybes, that no one would (usually) seriously use it on the forum.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, even if it was allowed...

It's still a magical clone of n52 Superman, who was mind-controlled by Skeletor and was STILL holding back, when he fired an energy attack that Batman is able to move his entire body out of the way of.

My point being, the whole 'feat' is so iffy, with so many hmm maybes, that no one would (usually) seriously use it on the forum.

What does him being a clone have to do with He-Man defending against HV he didn't even know existed?

You don't need peak Superman going all out for that to be a legit speed feat.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
What does him being a clone have to do with He-Man defending against HV he didn't even know existed?

You don't need peak Superman going all out for that to be a legit speed feat.

Then how fast was he then? I mean, we were debating how fast Zoom and Flash were in their scans, so let's apply the same reasoning to yours.

How fast was this magical mind-controlled clone of n52 Superman going, when he was holding back?

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then how fast was he then? I mean, we were debating how fast Zoom and Flash were in their scans, so let's apply the same reasoning to yours.

How fast was this magical mind-controlled clone of n52 Superman going, when he was holding back?

Again what does any of that have to do with deflecting HV without even knowing that was a thing?

DarkSaint85

Why is deflecting HV a speed feat? I want to see what THIS HV has done.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why is deflecting HV a speed feat? I want to see what THIS HV has done.

Do you at least agree going by the panels that He-Man seemed to move faster than the HV ?

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Do you at least agree going by the panels that He-Man seemed to move faster than the HV ?

Going by the panels, he moved slower than Batman did against another Superman stick out tongue

But without knowing where Fake Superman was aiming, no.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

But without knowing where Fake Superman was aiming, no.

He states "The Master wants your head". The panel before was "you shouldn't have done that" in response to He-Man punching Flash.

So There's literally no reason at all to assume he wasn't aiming for He-Man.

Really reaching here DS.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
He states "The Master wants your head". The panel before was "you shouldn't have done that" in response to He-Man punching Flash.

So There's literally no reason at all to assume he wasn't aiming for He-Man.

Really reaching here DS.

Why do you keep saying there's literally no reason at all....

When he specifically says he was holding back a few panels later?

I mean, if he's holding back....what's he holding back? And can you prove this?

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why do you keep saying there's literally no reason at all....

When he specifically says he was holding back a few panels later?

I mean, if he's holding back....what's he holding back? And can you prove this?

You're being massively disingenuous here. His exact words were "I'm sick of ALWAYS holding back".

You're making out as if he was specifically holding back against He-Man, so he might be aiming at his sword or some shit. And in the same scan that he says "The Master wants your head"

So yeah that is next level Reaching.

And no there is Zero reason to believe that.

DarkSaint85

Originally posted by Darth Thor
You're being massively disingenuous here. His exact words were "I'm sick of ALWAYS holding back".

You're making out as if he was specifically holding back against He-Man, so he might be aiming at his sword or some shit. And in the same scan that he says "The Master wants your head"

So yeah that is next level Reaching.

And no there is Zero reason to believe that.

So he was holding back. THEN stopped, and THEN was trying to kill He-Man.

Prior to that, he wasn't. So....how was he holding back when he used his HV the first time?

Because the 2nd time, when Fake Superman WASN'T holding back, his HV hit him just fine.

So let's start there, in the absence of your mod ruling. When Superman said he was always holding back, HOW was he holding back with the HV? And whatever your assertion, back it up with proof.

Was he holding back:

1. The power
2. The aim
3. The speed
4. Something else?

Tbf, I think you misinterpreted my words. I am not saying he SPECIFICALLY held back against He-Man - I am saying he specifically SAID he was holding back. Big difference there - I was countering your point that there was literally no reason to believe he was holding back, which is false. He said he always holds back, which includes....the first HV blast.

Also, I NEVER said he wasn't aiming at He-Man - merely that he was aiming at an area which would be easier for He-Man to block/deflect (waist area, rather than his head, for example).

h1a8

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Do you at least agree going by the panels that He-Man seemed to move faster than the HV ? It takes a smaller speed to block an attack than the attack itself. One does not have to move faster than the attack in order to block it.

You are assuming HV entered the air, he-man saw it, he-man put up his sword to block it.

When it could have been
he-man put up his sword, Clone fired at the sword.

Or

Clone hit he-man with hv, he-man then used the sword to block the hv.

Or

Or he-man saw clone's eye glowing and anticipated an eyebeam.

We can only speculate. Even if the first scenario happened then you must prove the speed of the HV in order to prove that he-man is at least half as fast.

So lets argue that for now.

Darth Thor

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So he was holding back. THEN stopped, and THEN was trying to kill He-Man.

Again you are jumping to conclusions with the holding back.

He says he's sick of ALWAYS Holding back. That doesn't even mean he was holding back the second earlier (he literally says The Master wants your Head).

That means he doesn't usually get to display his Full Power, because most his opponents are not strong enough for that fight.

Just because he's not giving He-Man his hardest possible punch yet, does not mean he's not going for the kill.

"The Master Wants Your Head" suggests he was aiming for his neck (which actually is congruent with the scan).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Prior to that, he wasn't.

He didn't say that.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So....how was he holding back when he used his HV the first time?

I don't know, you're the one making that claim.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because the 2nd time, when Fake Superman WASN'T holding back, his HV hit him just fine.

You mean when he shoots him in the eyes whilst grappling with him? That honestly seems like the same thing to you?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So let's start there, in the absence of your mod ruling. When Superman said he was always holding back, HOW was he holding back with the HV? And whatever your assertion, back it up with proof.

He didn't say he wasn't trying to kill He-Man. He just suggested he may not have been attacking with all his powers and all his might. Because he hardly Ever Does. He also hadn't punched He-Man yet, which meas if he had not held back at all with his HV, then that statement would still make complete sense. So in the absence of further proof, there's no need to believe he did.

Remember his HV shot made He-Man automatically realise this is some kind of demi-god, and the world's most powerful combatant. That doesn't suggest to me it was some slowed down, not so hot HV aimed only at his sword.

And remember he says that about Always holding back right prior to attacking He-Man PHYSICALLY, and using HV in conjunction with that. So he showed what he meant by not having to hold back anymore, and it's not what you seem to be suggesting.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Was he holding back:

1. The power
2. The aim
3. The speed
4. Something else?

Probably on his punches, which he hadn't used yet, but was delighted to know that the fight wouldn't be over after one semi-hard punch.

Nothing on the scan suggests he slowed down his HV, or wasn't aiming at He-Man, or wasn't attempting to kill him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tbf, I think you misinterpreted my words. I am not saying he SPECIFICALLY held back against He-Man - I am saying he specifically SAID he was holding back. Big difference there - I was countering your point that there was literally no reason to believe he was holding back, which is false. He said he always holds back, which includes....the first HV blast.

And there really isn't. He holds back against Mongul, doesn't mean he's not hitting him fast or hard. Doesn't mean he's slowing down his HV for him. Jeez. Doesn't mean he's not going for a fast KO. Just means he's not unleashing his full power until he needs to. Full power being a combo of everything.

Less likely an evil Superman clone wasn't going for the kill from the beginning though. A good Superman (holding back) goes for a KO. An evil one goes for the kill, even if he's not attacking with all his powers.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, I NEVER said he wasn't aiming at He-Man - merely that he was aiming at an area which would be easier for He-Man to block/deflect (waist area, rather than his head, for example).

You were suggesting he might be aiming for his sword. If that was the case He-Man wouldn't have needed to move his sword. Aiming for anywhere on He-Man's body, he would still have to intercept the shot.

However the dialogue suggests he was going for his neck, which the scan doesn't contradict.