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Who wins?

Boohan.

Reason?

I have Janemba around Super Boo level. Boohan is a good bit above that.

Gogeta?

What about him? mmm

Super Saiyan 3 Goku held his own against Janemba for a while, but he didn't even want to fight Super Buu.

https://i.imgur.com/bklaIEZm.jpg
From Dragon Ball, chapter 508.

Scale of power, Janemba poops on Super Buu. His presence alone was warping reality and Goku outright said Janemba could destroy the entire Universe and this was before his transformation when he became more powerful.

Janemba's influence on reality was due to his influence on hell. So it's not like he was creating a massive fireball or causing vacuum decay.

The implication in the manga was that Super Buu significantly more powerful than Goku. But Goku could hold his own against Janmeba.

Buu-han > Buu-tenks > Buu-collo > Super Buu > Janemba > Fat Buu > Kid Buu ≥ Evil Buu > Good Buu > Fat Janemba

Originally posted by Astner
Janemba's influence on reality was due to his influence on hell. So it's not like he was creating a massive fireball or causing vacuum decay.

The implication in the manga was that Super Buu significantly more powerful than Goku. But Goku could hold his own against Janmeba.

Buu-han > Buu-tenks > Buu-collo > Super Buu > Janemba > Fat Buu > Kid Buu ≥ Evil Buu > Good Buu > Fat Janemba

That was never mentioned and Goku said that Janemba had enough power in him to destroy the Universe.

Janemba was significantly more powerful than Goku. Goku felt that he needed to merge to beat him. Why mention this?

Based off power mentioned (Universal), the effects Janemba was having (warping reality) and Janemba also being more powerful than Super Saiyan 3, he shouldn't lose here.

Originally posted by Astner
Janemba's influence on reality was due to his influence on hell. So it's not like he was creating a massive fireball or causing vacuum decay.

The implication in the manga was that Super Buu significantly more powerful than Goku. But Goku could hold his own against Janmeba.

Buu-han > Buu-tenks > Buu-collo > Super Buu > Janemba > Fat Buu > Kid Buu ≥ Evil Buu > Good Buu > Fat Janemba

Originally posted by carver9
Scale of power, Janemba poops on Super Buu. His presence alone was warping reality and Goku outright said Janemba could destroy the entire Universe and this was before his transformation when he became more powerful. Janemba was passively beginning to warp reality, sure.

Boohan's scream was actively starting to break down dimensional walls, and would have soon destroyed the universe if Vegito hadn't stopped him.

Feats don't really matter for battles between Dragon Ball characters because it's internally consistent. Cell never destroyed the planet, but we still know he's stronger than Frieza who did.

The only case you could reasonable make for Super Buu being weaker than Janemba is that Goku was dead, and therefore could sustain his Super Saiyan 3 transformation.

The issue with this argument is he didn't know this when fighting Kid Buu. He tried to gather chi as Super Saiyan 3, but wasn't able to hold on to it. So he shouldn't have known this when he said that they didn't have a chance against Super Buu.

So what we're left with is:
Super Buu >> Super Saiyan 3 Goku,
Janemba > Super Saiyan 3 Goku,
Super Saiyan 3 Goku > Fat Buu,
Super Saiyan 3 Goku >> Kid Buu.

https://i.imgur.com/1ybd2U0m.png
Chapter 509 "You know, I actually could've beaten the fat Boo with Super Saiyan 3 when I met him...but I wanted the new generation to make sure they could take care of themselves..." - Goku

https://i.imgur.com/rjF3BWVm.png
Chapter 510 "Don't mind me. Finish him off! Build up your chi with Super Saiyan 3, and you should be able to obliterate him!" - Vegeta

Feats of scale aren't something I typically argue in DB threads for that very reason: it is seldom an accurate measuring stick. But since carver implied that Janemba wins cuz "scale of power", I just wanted to remind him that Boohan canonically(it was referenced in the Daizenshuu) preformed an =/> feat. Point being: even the scale of Janemba's passive influence can't give him an auto-win against Boohan.


Anyway, Goku didn't discover that he was unable to reach full power SS3 in a mortal body until his fight with Pure Boo... So previously in the arc, when Goku stated that Super Boo was stronger than himself, he was logically factoring in his FP!SS3.

My scaling basically mirrors yours:
Boohan > Bootenks > Mystic Gohan > Booccolo > Super Boo ~ SS3 Gotenks ~/> Janemba > FP!SS3 Goku > Pure Boo > Fat Boo ~/> Fat Janemba.

Goku claimed that Fat Janenba is the strongest ki he has ever felt, and he factors in Buu to that assertion since he mentions him when he transforms into SSJ3 against Fat Janenba. Since Gotenks can use his ghost attack in the movie then Goku can also be referring to Super Buu. Making Fat Janenba at least Ultimate Gohan level and Super Janenba Buuhan level or higher.

^ Character statements are usually pretty reliable in DB, but in this case there are a few glaring contradictions that we can't just ignore...

Regardless of Goku's statement, he proceeded to throttle Fat Janemba without much difficulty once he went SS3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbkNLpzdsfY&t=1m40s
ie. FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba

Additionally, FP!SS3 Goku was able to do pretty well(all things considered) against final form Janemba:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg49-Z5a8-g
Janemba was obviously still superior, but the fact that Goku could at least put up a fight tells us that the gap between them wasn't overly vast.

Flip side, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was stronger than himself... To the point where Goku(the dipshit who is typically willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of the circumstances) felt that it would be suicide to try and fight Super Boo, and didn't even attempt to engage him:
https://ibb.co/5KC7NGN
*As I mentioned above, Goku would have logically been factoring in his full power SS3 when he made that assessment/statement, as he was not yet aware that his mortal body was incapable of handling the full power of SS3. Therefore we can conclude that Super Boo > FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba.


This is, again, why I have final form Janemba around Super Boo's level.

Originally posted by Galan007
^ Character statements are usually pretty reliable in DB, but in this case there are a few glaring contradictions that we can't just ignore...

Regardless of Goku's statement, he proceeded to throttle Fat Janemba without much difficulty once he went SS3:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FbkNLpzdsfY&t=1m40s
ie. FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba

Additionally, FP!SS3 Goku was able to do pretty well(all things considered) against final form Janemba:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xg49-Z5a8-g
Janemba was obviously still superior, but the fact that Goku could at least put up a fight tells us that the gap between them wasn't overly vast.

Flip side, Goku outright stated that Super Boo was stronger than himself... To the point where Goku(the dipshit who is typically willing to fight anyone at anytime, regardless of the circumstances) felt that it would be suicide to try and fight Super Boo, and didn't even attempt to engage him:
https://ibb.co/5KC7NGN
*As I mentioned above, Goku would have logically been factoring in his full power SS3 when he made that assessment/statement, as he was not yet aware that his mortal body was incapable of handling the full power of SS3. Therefore we can conclude that Super Boo > FP!SS3 Goku >> Fat Janemba.


This is, again, why I have final form Janemba around Super Boo's level.

I just chalk that up to Movie Goku being stronger than Canon Goku. He did outperform both Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks against Hirudegarn in the next film, despite the latter two being stronger than him and Super Buu in canon.

Originally posted by Marikina
I just chalk that up to Movie Goku being stronger than Canon Goku. I mean, he was stronger in a way.

Movie #12 Goku was still in his dead/spirit body, and was therefore capable of tapping into the full power of SS3. Conversely, canon Goku, in his living body, was not capable of doing so -- he never reached FP!SS3 in the manga, because his mortal body couldn't handle it.

However, Goku only learned that he was not able to fully power up as SS3 during the final battle with Pure Boo. That's why the statement he made about his power being inferior to that of Super Boo is important: at that point in the story, Goku would have logically been factoring in FP!SS3... And still didn't think he'd have a chance.

Originally posted by Marikina
He did outperform both Ultimate Gohan and Gotenks against Hirudegarn in the next film, despite the latter two being stronger than him and Super Buu in canon. Movie levels/scaling are often quite broken and borderline unreliable. For example, Movie #13 Goku outpreformed both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan... In his baseline SS1 state.

So it seems more likely that the power of Gotenks and Gohan were simply shit on/forgotten in that movie, for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to shine. Unless you're really of the opinion that SS1 Goku > SS3 Gotenks & Ultimate Gohan. /shrug

Goku discovered a weakness in Hirudegarn, that's how he defeated him and lasted.

Originally posted by Galan007
I mean, he was stronger in a way.

Movie #12 Goku was still in his dead/spirit body, and was therefore capable of tapping into the full power of SS3. Conversely, canon Goku, in his living body, was not capable of doing so -- he never reached FP!SS3 in the manga, because his mortal body couldn't handle it.

However, Goku only learned that he was not able to fully power up as SS3 during the final battle with Pure Boo. That's why the statement he made about his power being inferior to that of Super Boo is important: at that point in the story, Goku would have logically been factoring in FP!SS3... And still didn't think he'd have a chance.


Goku also told Vegeta in the movie that the gap between them grew bigger since the last time they met because he had a body in the afterlife and was training.



Goku was SSJ2 in movie 12, and he lost to the transformed Hirudegarn just like his kids.

Originally posted by carver9
Goku discovered a weakness in Hirudegarn, that's how he defeated him and lasted.

SSJ3 Goku was literally no-selling punches from Hirudegarn.

Originally posted by Marikina
Goku also told Vegeta in the movie that the gap between them grew bigger since the last time they met because he had a body in the afterlife and was training. Not exactly sure what angle you're taking here, but doesn't that hold true in manga canon as well?

Goku rigorously trained in the afterlife, and increased his overall power to a point where Vegeta couldn't match any of his forms without the Majin amp.

Originally posted by Marikina
Goku was SSJ2 in movie 12, and he lost to the transformed Hirudegarn just like his kids. You're right, it was SS2... But the point still stands.

Transformed Hirudegarn one-shot KO'd both SS3 Gotenks and Ultimate Gohan. Flip side, SS2 Goku soaked multiple strikes from the same Hirudegarn before he was briefly KO'd. Don't think I'm willing to agree that SS2 Goku is actually on par with(much less superior to) Gotenks/Gohan... I think it's more likely that the duo's actual "manga levels" were just outright ignored in that Movie so Goku could take the spotlight again(like he did in almost every DB Movie.)

Either that or:
SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku ~/> Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Gotenks.

So do we think Movie-verse Goku was just THAT ridiculously powerful, or do we think the others were just THAT ridiculously nerfed..?

Originally posted by Galan007
Not exactly sure what angle you're taking here, but doesn't that hold true in manga canon as well?

Goku rigorously trained in the afterlife, and increased his overall power to a point where Vegeta couldn't match any of his forms without the Majin amp.


Goku was referring to when both of them ended up in the afterlife after their fight. Goku got a body and continued his training, widening their gap.



As I pointed out above Goku in the movies underwent additional training after returning to the afterlife which could explain his power boost. And it's not like there's no precedent for Toei making Goku look stronger than Gohan in their material. Goku was stronger than Gohan in movie 8 and in movie 9 Goku decked Super Bojack while in base. And there's Goku looking strong in anime filler.

Originally posted by Marikina
Goku was referring to when both of them ended up in the afterlife after their fight. Goku got a body and continued his training, widening their gap. Movies 10-13 are all set during the same general period as the Boo saga(with most of them literally taking place days apart.) So when did Goku have an opportunity to significantly level-up?

Originally posted by Marikina
As I pointed out above Goku in the movies underwent additional training after returning to the afterlife which could explain his power boost. And it's not like there's no precedent for Toei making Goku look stronger than Gohan in their material. Goku was stronger than Gohan in movie 8 and in movie 9 Goku decked Super Bojack while in base. And there's Goku looking strong in anime filler. Oh, I'm well aware of the fact that Goku routinely looked better than his peers in the movies. Hence why I said this:
Originally posted by Galan007
I think it's more likely that the duo's actual "manga levels" were just outright ignored in that Movie so Goku could take the spotlight again(like he did in almost every DB Movie.)

Either that or:
SS3 Goku >> SS2 Goku ~/> Ultimate Gohan ~ SS3 Gotenks.

So do we think Movie-verse Goku was just THAT ridiculously powerful, or do we think the others were just THAT ridiculously nerfed..?

Originally posted by Galan007
Movies 10-13 are all set during the same general period as the Boo saga(with most of them literally taking place days apart.) So when did Goku have an opportunity to significantly level-up?

Oh, I'm well aware of the fact that Goku routinely looked better than his peers in the movies. Hence why I said this:

The movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline. Movie 12 after all did have an ongoing second afterlife tournament that wouldn't have jived with the anime.

The Daizenshuu roughly outlines when the films are set... And Movies 10-13 all take place during the same period as the Boo saga.

Originally posted by Galan007
The Daizenshuu roughly outlines when the films are set... And Movies 10-13 all take place during the same period as the Boo saga.

Like I said, loosely based. Movie 12's version of the Boo saga allowed for a second afterlife tournament which allowed Goku to train and get stronger.

But again: the Daizenshuu gives us a timeline in which these movies take place, and it's all during the Boo saga...


M10: takes place just before the 25th WMAT.
-Videl has the hairstyle she adopted after Gohan taught her to fly.
-Goku is still dead.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the start of the 25th WMAT.


M11: takes place just before the initial showdown with Boo.
-#18 presses Mr. Satan to hand over the Tournament prize money.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the conclusion of the 25th WMAT, and the initial conflict with Fat Boo.


M12: takes place just before the climax of the battle with Super Boo.
-Goku is dead.
-Vegeta is dead.
-Boo is mentioned.
-Gotenks appears and uses his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack(meaning this is post-RoSaT Gotenks.)

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set at some point in the middle of the Boo saga -- likely around the battle with Super Boo/Bootenks/Boohan.


M13: takes place just after the conclusion of the Boo saga.
-Both Goku and Vegeta have living bodies.
-Peace has been restored to earth.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set right after Pure Boo's defeat/death.



So again, even though the movies are non-canon, they still adhere to the same general timeline of events as the canon/manga timeline... Meaning that all of the movies literally take place a few days apart(per the Daizenshuu.) So like I mentioned earlier: I'm not sure when Goku would've have the chance to significantly level-up between these films..?

Saying that Goku is stronger in the movies is no less valid than saying Gohan's strength was "ignored" in the movies, lol.

Imo, it makes more sense to assume that Gohan and Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to take the spotlight again, than it does to assume that Goku was SO much more powerful in the movie-verse that his SS2 form is on par with Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks... Because in the manga, the duo were far beyond even SS3 Goku.

Anyway, I said from the start that the movies(in particular) are a broken shitshow when it comes to "scaling", and y'all are welcome to assume that movie Goku IS that powerful without question. I'm just trying to rationalize things the best I can. /shrug

Originally posted by Galan007
Imo, it makes more sense to assume that Gohan and Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sole purpose of allowing Goku to take the spotlight again, than it does to assume that Goku was SO much more powerful in the movie-verse that his SS2 form is on par with Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks...
Again, it's literally the same thing, just flipped around. It doesn't make sense for Goku to suddenly get stronger, and it doesn't make sense for everyone else to suddenly get weaker, either. I don't understand what's giving you this confidence that your side of the coin is any more reasonable of a rationalization.


Well, that's your interpretation, at least. Maybe Toriyama would agree, maybe he wouldn't; I can't comment on that.

I am pretty confident, though, that the folks at Toei Animation would disagree, given that that Goku fared just fine against Buutenks in the anime. Clearly not everybody involved in the production process was operating under the same assumptions as you. If you'd still like to insist that your interpretation is more true to the manga, that's fine, but then it's necessary to acknowledge that Toei's productions don't have to comply 1-to-1 with Toriyama's vision.

Originally posted by Galan007
But again: the Daizenshuu gives us a timeline in which these movies take place, and it's all during the Boo saga...


M10: takes place just before the 25th WMAT.
-Videl has the hairstyle she adopted after Gohan taught her to fly.
-Goku is still dead.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the start of the 25th WMAT.


M11: takes place just before the initial showdown with Boo.
-#18 presses Mr. Satan to hand over the Tournament prize money.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set around the conclusion of the 25th WMAT, and the initial conflict with Fat Boo.


M12: takes place just before the climax of the battle with Super Boo.
-Goku is dead.
-Vegeta is dead.
-Boo is mentioned.
-Gotenks appears and uses his Super Ghost Kamikaze Attack(meaning this is post-RoSaT Gotenks.)

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set at some point in the middle of the Boo saga -- likely around the battle with Super Boo/Bootenks/Boohan.


M13: takes place just after the conclusion of the Boo saga.
-Both Goku and Vegeta have living bodies.
-Peace has been restored to earth.

*Based on this, we can infer that the movie is meant to be set right after Pure Boo's defeat/death.



So again, even though the movies are non-canon, they still adhere to the same general timeline of events as the canon/manga timeline... Meaning that all of the movies literally take place a few days apart(per the Daizenshuu.) So like I mentioned earlier: I'm not sure when Goku would've have the chance to significantly level-up between these films..?

Like I said, that's why the movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline and clearly do their own thing. If we're strictly adhering to the anime timeline then yes, Goku shouldn't have any time to train with Grand Kaio again to get stronger anymore than he would have enough time to fight in a second afterlife tournament, but for the purposes of movie 12 he does.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Again, it's literally the same thing, just flipped around. It doesn't make sense for Goku to suddenly get stronger, and it doesn't make sense for everyone else to suddenly get weaker, either. I don't understand what's giving you this confidence that your side of the coin is any more reasonable of a rationalization. Again, to me it's more reasonable to assume that Gohan/Gotenks were nerfed(relative to manga canon) for the sake of the plot, than it is to assume that movie-verse Goku is just SO powerful that he can match the aforementioned in his SS2 state.

You're welcome to disagree, as neither side of the coin can be definitively proven. I'm simply voicing my opinion on the matter, just as you are voicing yours.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
Well, that's your interpretation, at least. Maybe Toriyama would agree, maybe he wouldn't; I can't comment on that. Pretty sure Toriyama would agree(back when he originally wrote the Boo saga, at least), given the abundance of evidence that points to:
Ultimate Gohan >> SS3 Gotenks >>> SS3 Goku >>>> SS2 Goku.

Originally posted by NewGuy01
I am pretty confident, though, that the folks at Toei Animation would disagree, given that that Goku fared just fine against Buutenks in the anime. Clearly not everybody involved in the production process was operating under the same assumptions as you. If you'd still like to insist that your interpretation is more true to the manga, that's fine, but then it's necessary to acknowledge that Toei's productions don't have to comply 1-to-1 with Toriyama's vision. I agree that Toei, in and of itself, really doesn't give a shit about established canon/Toriyama scaling. The movies are also set in an alternate, non-canon timeline where anything could be possible. That's why I keep reiterating "relative to manga canon" and such... Because that has historically been the measuring stick that just about everyone has always used to gauge characters from the movies.

But again, you guys are welcome to assume that movie-verse SS2 Goku ~ non-nerfed/full power Ultimate Gohan and SS3 Gotenks. That's just not how I view things, is all. /shrug

Or maybe... just maybe... Gohan and Gotenks suck really bad, Tori felt pity for them, so he gave them five minutes of fame he immediately forgot about?

I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks (manga), Mystic Gohan and Good Mister Buu all got trashed on the beginning of DBS, proving once and for all they really can't hold a candle to the top dogs such as Goku and Vegeta.



...



Then again, Super is quite weird.

Originally posted by Marikina
Like I said, that's why the movies are only loosely based on the anime timeline and clearly do their own thing. If we're strictly adhering to the anime timeline then yes, Goku shouldn't have any time to train with Grand Kaio again to get stronger anymore than he would have enough time to fight in a second afterlife tournament, but for the purposes of movie 12 he does. I understand what you're trying to say, but again: the Daizenshuu outlines the timeframe in which the movies are set, and it's ALL during the Boo saga... So literally days apart.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Or maybe... just maybe... Gohan and Gotenks suck really bad, Tori felt pity for them, so he gave them five minutes of fame he immediately forgot about?

I mean... SSJ3 Gotenks (manga), Mystic Gohan and Good Mister Buu all got trashed on the beginning of DBS, proving once and for all they really can't hold a candle to the top dogs such as Goku and Vegeta.



...



Then again, Super is quite weird. DBS is a shitshow when it comes to any sort of cohesive scaling, and Toriyama forgets the shit he has written all the time(as he readily admits.)

So for the purposes of this discussion I am only talking about the scaling he provided during the original Boo saga.

It's really weird. Because already in the Saiyan Saga we're introduced to the idea of Gohan having greater potential than Goku, this is reinforced in the Cell Saga.

When Gohan had his potential unlocked by Elder Kai, he wasn't able to transform to increase his power further. Effectively he was as powerful as he could be in his base form.

https://i.imgur.com/Bc1lj7n.jpg

Chapter 496

Gohan's "Ultimate" form essentially made all of his latent power/potential accessible in his base form. In that respect it was the most efficient powerup in DB history, as he no longer had to waste ki/stamina with transformations and whatnot.

We also know that Gohan was well above SS3 Gotenks, who, in turn, was implied to be significantly above even SS3 Goku. That's the original canon/manga scaling, at least.

Originally posted by Galan007
DBS is a shitshow

Yet you keep making references to it... even in your sleep

So now... I'm using your own weapon against you and striking you where it hurts the most.

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/SeparateGiganticGecko-max-1mb.gif