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Both are identical in size and dimension. Which one is more durable? Answer by answering the 3 questions below. If tie then say tie. Support answer with showings.

1. Serpent tries to break both (like he did with Cap's shield). Which one will he have a harder time breaking (or bending)?

2. Galactus (average) blasts both with full might. Which one holds up the longest?

3. King Thor hits both with Mjolnir (like he did Cap's shield and dented it). Which one has the smallest dent?

Spite in favor of Cap's shield. It's gone through numerous power ups no?

Originally posted by zopzop
Spite in favor of Cap's shield. It's gone through numerous power ups no? ''Not his current shield but his original shield.

Yeah, it now has uru in it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, it now has uru in it.

And there was a time it had a flaw, during that "vibranium cancer" arc.

Other than fixing said flaw and introducing uru to the mix much-much later, I don't recall any other upgrades.

Zop, tell us more.

Lmao I suddenly wondered about what the shield's PAINT was made of.

It's just normal titanium nitride. Considering some of the attacks it has gone through....

Also, how does it bounce? If it has vibranium in it which absorbs KE (so Cap doesn't get turned into paste), why does it suddenly bounce with perfect conservation of energy?

Also, did you guys know Vibranium isn't considered an element in Marvel?

While reading the OP my very first thought on the subject was that America's Shield would win hands down. However, the comments that followed has left me wondering.

The shield had been weakened over time. Evidence suggests that it's damage threshold was well above Galactus' power output during the first Secret Wars, as it was damaged by the Beyonder but not fully destroyed. It is later dismantled by a strike from Thanos wielding the Infinity Gauntlet, which showed us it's full limit.

Later, the Serpent does the same thing, but he assaults it with magic. Because of the type of assault that he used against it, things become a bit murky. The shield was at that time weak against magic, however that doesn't mean that it was weak against non magical forces.

I do not believe that Galactus could destroy, or even damage the shield as it was written pre Secret Wars. Thor later rumples it, but again, King Thor was a magical being.

Since Adamantium should be vulnerable to the same forces that America's Shield was before the final upgrade, I'd vote that the shield would on average surpass the strength of Adamantium, but it wouldn't be by a lot.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao I suddenly wondered about what the shield's PAINT was made of.

It's just normal titanium nitride. Considering some of the attacks it has gone through....

Also, how does it bounce? If it has vibranium in it which absorbs KE (so Cap doesn't get turned into paste), why does it suddenly bounce with perfect conservation of energy?

Also, did you guys know Vibranium isn't considered an element in Marvel? I talked about that years ago. More than 12 years ago. I stated that it was a contradiction to absorb kinetic energy but at the same time bounce with almost no loss of momentum.

Yup we all knew that vibranium is not an element in marvel. Basically common sense.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao I suddenly wondered about what the shield's PAINT was made of.

It's just normal titanium nitride. Considering some of the attacks it has gone through....

Because most writers ignore that and choose to write it as being as indestructible as the rest of the shield (sans the handle).

But some try to be realistic and do have it damaged (and Steve mentions how he has to periodically replace it), like in the famous Captain America Annual with Wolverine as the guest-star.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, how does it bounce? If it has vibranium in it which absorbs KE (so Cap doesn't get turned into paste), why does it suddenly bounce with perfect conservation of energy?

Everybody keeps asking that.

It's even better with the energy shield (but to be fair, Cap rarely throws it).

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

Also, did you guys know Vibranium isn't considered an element in Marvel?

An alloy, then?

Originally posted by Stoic
While reading the OP my very first thought on the subject was that America's Shield would win hands down. However, the comments that followed has left me wondering.

The shield had been weakened over time. Evidence suggests that it's damage threshold was well above Galactus' power output during the first Secret Wars, as it was damaged by the Beyonder but not fully destroyed. It is later dismantled by a strike from Thanos wielding the Infinity Gauntlet, which showed us it's full limit.

Later, the Serpent does the same thing, but he assaults it with magic. Because of the type of assault that he used against it, things become a bit murky. The shield was at that time weak against magic, however that doesn't mean that it was weak against non magical forces.

I do not believe that Galactus could destroy, or even damage the shield as it was written pre Secret Wars. Thor later rumples it, but again, King Thor was a magical being.

Since Adamantium should be vulnerable to the same forces that America's Shield was before the final upgrade, I'd vote that the shield would on average surpass the strength of Adamantium, but it wouldn't be by a lot. It wasnt magic directly that damaged it but power (force). Serpent used strength that he obtained from magical means. Thor used force that he obtained from magical means.

That's because it violates the laws of physics

A flower absorbs light and has roots. The shield is right.

Originally posted by h1a8
It wasnt magic directly that damaged it but power (force). Serpent used strength that he obtained from magical means. Thor used force that he obtained from magical means.

Shut up.

Captain Marvel pummeled Superman with his bare fists and it's always mentioned how magic plays a huge part in those beatdowns.

Just because it appears as a mere physical strike doesn't mean there's no magic doing most of the work there.

Aside from the art, you can see Serpent saying the incantation a page before that.

Just die already, you miserable, impotent moron.

Or just adamantium-vibranium mix under some writers, who wanted to simplify things.

But that's an error... as the shield predates the true adamantium.

U.S. Agent (also known as Mungi Agent) is the one with the 100% vibranium shield.

Evaporation of motion means it can channel its initial state.

The inconsistently of the kinetic absorbing properties of Cap's shield was also carried into the MCU:

-Avengers, Cap isn't turned into red paste when a butthurt Thor tries to murder him because the shield absorbs and deflects the mighty blow

-CA:TWS, Cap is sent flying off the highway overpass after the shield is hit with grenade launcher


There's more examples.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Shut up.

Captain Marvel pummeled Superman with his bare fists and it's always mentioned how magic plays a huge part in those beatdowns.

Just because it appears as a mere physical strike doesn't mean there's no magic doing most of the work there.

Aside from the art, you can see Serpent saying the incantation a page before that.

Just die already, you miserable, impotent moron.
That's his language idiot. All the heralds spoke that language. Doesn't mean anything. Shield is not weak to magic.

Originally posted by h1a8
I talked about that years ago. More than 12 years ago. I stated that it was a contradiction to absorb kinetic energy but at the same time bounce with almost no loss of momentum.

Yup we all knew that vibranium is not an element in marvel. Basically common sense.

Oh sorry, did I say Marvel didn't call it an element? My bad, they totally do:

https://i.postimg.cc/zBcHtcKX/RCO008-1468851170.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
And there was a time it had a flaw, during that "vibranium cancer" arc.

Other than fixing said flaw and introducing uru to the mix much-much later, I don't recall any other upgrades.

Zop, tell us more.
Those were the upgrades I was referring to

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's because it violates the laws of physics

It doesn't violate the laws of physics. It just illogical to us.
It can be written away as the shield responds to the mental commands of its possessor.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Oh sorry, did I say Marvel didn't call it an element? My bad, they totally do:

https://i.postimg.cc/zBcHtcKX/RCO008-1468851170.jpg Figurative language or element has more than one meaning (i.e ingredient)

Prove it was figurative. Writer intent was that it was an element.

Originally posted by h1a8
It doesn't violate the laws of physics. It just illogical to us.
It can be written away as the shield responds to the mental commands of its possessor.

Prove that it responds to mental commands

The better you handle it the better it responds.

Originally posted by h1a8
It wasnt magic directly that damaged it but power (force). Serpent used strength that he obtained from magical means. Thor used force that he obtained from magical means.

We've already covered this with scans. The Serpent hit it with a magical attack.

Originally posted by h1a8
That's his language idiot. All the heralds spoke that language. Doesn't mean anything. Shield is not weak to magic.

All the "heralds", lol? You dumb ****.

It means everything when there is the art to support it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao I suddenly wondered about what the shield's PAINT was made of.
The paint is likely oxidized adamantium, different layers of oxidations reflects different colors due to superposition cancellation of the reflect light. So no outer coating or coloring is necessary.

This is done to titanium for aesthetic purposes.

https://i.imgur.com/8Zel7Uul.png

https://i.imgur.com/E9WoVrrl.png

This is why you have no life, Astner.

Originally posted by Astner
The paint is likely oxidized adamantium, different layers of oxidations reflects different colors due to superposition cancellation of the reflect light. So no outer coating or coloring is necessary.

This is done to titanium for aesthetic purposes.

https://i.imgur.com/8Zel7Uul.png

https://i.imgur.com/E9WoVrrl.png

According to the handbooks, it's titanium nitride.

Also, do you think Adamantium oxide exists?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
All the "heralds", lol? You dumb ****.

It means everything when there is the art to support it.

All his heralds. Is that better? That's the language they spoke (old Viking language).

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
This is why you have no life, Astner.
https://i.imgur.com/ZHOIXbr.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
According to the handbooks, it's titanium nitride.
Titanium-nitride is yellow.

There are variations like titanium-aluminium-nitride which is bronze, and titanium-carbon-nitride which is black. But that's it, and these substances are nowhere near indestructible.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Also, do you think Adamantium oxide exists?
https://i.imgur.com/ly0vuUh.gif

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
According to the handbooks, it's titanium nitride.

Also, do you think Adamantium oxide exists?

If Adamantium can be combined chemically to bone, there's no reason to believe it couldn't be chemically combined with oxygen. Astner's logic is sound, we're also talking about fiction after all.

Originally posted by Astner
Titanium-nitride is yellow.

There are variations like titanium-aluminium-nitride which is bronze, and titanium-carbon-nitride which is black. But that's it, and these substances are nowhere near indestructible.


https://i.imgur.com/ly0vuUh.gif

Indeed, it's more accurately 'red/white/blue enamel MIXED with titanium nitride'. Though just to point out one COULD get differing (limited) colours of titanium nitride.

https://i.postimg.cc/C5Yv2NYL/IMG-20210910-190628.jpg

But then, this thread is created by the guy who says Adamantium and Cap's shield and vibranium obeys the laws of physics, so....

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Prove that it responds to mental commands
So DS is now becoming a troll?

"It can be written away" means possibility for future writing or a retconn. Isnt that common sense what those words meant?


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Prove it was figurative. Writer intent was that it was an element.

There are multiple definitions of the word element. The most used (or standard definition) has it to mean "part of something" like an ingredient. The onus is on you to prove that the writer meant the literal chemistry definition and not the standard definition since that is what you are claiming.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Indeed, it's more accurately 'red/white/blue enamel MIXED with titanium nitride'. Though just to point out one COULD get differing (limited) colours of titanium nitride.
The compound is yellow, and it's applied in very thin layers (2-4 μm) through a process known as PVD (physical vapor despoliation), so I'm not sure how much pigments you can fit in there without compromising the integrity of the coating, and yellow is a very difficult color to change to blue or red with pigments.

There are however other similar compounds that have different colors, the composition of which are company secrets.

https://i.imgur.com/O9sohg1l.jpg

So it's not impossible to get these colors through PVD-coatings with similar or greater hardness. But it wouldn't be titanium-nitrite.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But then, this thread is created by the guy who says Adamantium and Cap's shield and vibranium obeys the laws of physics, so....
The reason I suggested an oxide is because it's generally harder and more corrosion resistant. As opposed to PVD coatings which break at high-speed impacts.

Originally posted by Astner
The compound is yellow, and it's applied in very thin layers (2-4 μm) through a process known as PVD (physical vapor despoliation), so I'm not sure how much pigments you can fit in there without compromising the integrity of the coating, and yellow is a very difficult color to change to blue or red with pigments.

There are however other similar compounds that have different colors, the composition of which are company secrets.

https://i.imgur.com/O9sohg1l.jpg

So it's not impossible to get these colors witha similar or greater hardness. But it wouldn't be titanium-nitrite.


The reason I suggested an oxide is because it's generally harder and more corrosion resistant. As opposed to PVD coatings which break at high-speed impacts.

Can Adamantium exist in real life? And Cap's shield and vibranium?

Originally posted by h1a8
So DS is now becoming a troll?

"It can be written away" means possibility for future writing or a retconn. Isnt that common sense what those words meant?




There are multiple definitions of the word element. The most used (or standard definition) has it to mean "part of something" like an ingredient. The onus is on you to prove that the writer meant the literal chemistry definition and not the standard definition since that is what you are claiming.

Asking for proof is trolling? I see.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Asking for proof is trolling? I see.

Yes it is, when they is no claim. I simply stated the writer can retcon the inconsistency with the shield being able to respond to Cap's mental commands. They have the authority to do it.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Can Adamantium exist in real life? And Cap's shield and vibranium? Adamantium is fictional. Can a metal that can cut through all current man made (or natural) materials with the strength of Logan exist? We don't know. That's like asking if lasers can be created in the stone age. Most (in the stoneage) will say no, be we all know better.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Can Adamantium exist in real life? And Cap's shield and vibranium?
No. There are limits to the molecular binding-strength of alloys, and no compound behaves like vibranium.

The hardest thing we know of is "nuclear pasta," which exists in the transitioning layers of the neutron superfluid and proton-neutron superfluid in neutron stars.

Naturally this couldn't exist outside a neutron star because without the pressure holding it together it would just explode.

Originally posted by Astner
No. There are limits to the molecular binding-strength of alloys, and no compound behaves like vibranium.

The hardest thing we know of is "nuclear pasta," which exists in the transitioning layers of the neutron superfluid and proton-neutron superfluid in neutron stars.

Naturally this couldn't exist outside a neutron star because without the pressure holding it together it would just explode.

Assuming there are limits. Prove that such limits are less than what adamantium was capable of (cutting through all natural and real man made objects)

An infinite number of computing I.e. pi creates an infinite number of possibilities that creates 1 indestructible or proof of singular if you will. They already proved black 🕳 holes.

Originally posted by h1a8
Assuming there are limits. Prove that such limits are less than what adamantium was capable of (cutting through all natural and real man made objects)
I'm assuming that Adamantium is physically indestructible.

The problem with alloys is that they rely metallic bonds (which aren't that strong) which is why the hardest alloys don't compare to the hardest compounds.

https://i.imgur.com/mNrwmsKl.jpg

Originally posted by Astner
I'm assuming that Adamantium is physically indestructible.

The problem with alloys is that they rely metallic bonds (which aren't that strong) which is why the hardest alloys don't compare to the hardest compounds.

https://i.imgur.com/mNrwmsKl.jpg

The assumption is wrong.

Astner's approaching the fictional-to-reality subject via a scientific standpoint, H1 is using something else.

Originally posted by h1a8
The assumption is wrong.
You're not cutting cubic-boron-nitride or diamond with an alloy.

The hardest alloy to date is titanium-gold, which has a hardness of 800 HV.

https://i.imgur.com/Mq83Oa9l.jpg


The aforementioned compounds have a hardness around 10,000 HV.

Originally posted by Astner
You're not cutting cubic-boron-nitride or diamond with an alloy.

The hardest alloy to date is titanium-gold, which has a hardness of 800 HV.

https://i.imgur.com/Mq83Oa9l.jpg


The aforementioned compounds have a hardness around 10,000 HV.

Immaterial. None of this proves that it is impossible for an alloy to cut diamond.

Speaking of cutting metals. Cutters made of polycrystalline diamonds are not designed for cutting hard materials like stainless steels or titanium alloys, but softer materials like aluminum and graphite in which their "lifetime" is indefinite as long as it's used correctly.

But if you use it to cut harder materials the edge will wear out and break off (even though it's harder) and since they're ten times more expensive it's not an affordable option.

Originally posted by h1a8
Immaterial. None of this proves that it is impossible for an alloy to cut diamond.
Are you expecting me to post an article on the theoretical limits to the hardness that can be achieved with metallic bonds, or what exactly are you looking for?

The hardness comes down to the energy binding the molecules together, and metallic bonds relies on the strength of its electron cloud which comparatively isn't that strong.

This is a pretty well-researched field because there's a lot of money to be made of industry.

Originally posted by Astner
Speaking of cutting metals. Cutters made of polycrystalline diamonds are not designed for cutting hard materials like stainless steels or titanium alloys, but softer materials like aluminum and graphite in which their "lifetime" is indefinite as long as it's used correctly.

But if you use it to cut harder materials the edge will wear out and break off (even though it's harder) and since they're ten times more expensive it's not an affordable option.


Are you expecting me to post an article on the theoretical limits to the hardness that can be achieved with metallic bonds, or what exactly are you looking for?

The hardness comes down to the energy binding the molecules together, and metallic bonds relies on the strength of its electron cloud which comparatively isn't that strong.

This is a pretty well-researched field because there's a lot of money to be made of industry.

Why post all this? Just prove the statement i posted. Yes since i asked you to prove a statement. Also alloys not need to be composed solely of metals. And we do not know if there is another process (not invented yet) to create such a strong alloy.

Originally posted by Astner
https://i.imgur.com/ZHOIXbr.jpg

Your post count is actually way too high, considering how you are confined mostly to Eternal Sunshine and talking about math bs, lol haw-som

Originally posted by Robtard
H1 is using something else.

Namely drugs for his schizophrenia which are clearly not working.

Originally posted by Robtard
Astner's approaching the fictional-to-reality subject via a scientific standpoint, H1 is using something else. His assumption was wrong (adamantium is physically indestructible) so any science built off that assumption leads to a faulty conclusion. Yet I'm using something else? Stop trolling and read the exchange first.

Reality is for people who walk upright. So Adamantium is part of survival of the fittest. If access from upright can implement it it can be ✔️ done. The math 🧮 is good.

Kulan Gath infused with Shuma Gorrath's power (magical power) just took a bite out of the shield.

Originally posted by Stoic
While reading the OP my very first thought on the subject was that America's Shield would win hands down. However, the comments that followed has left me wondering.

The shield had been weakened over time. Evidence suggests that it's damage threshold was well above Galactus' power output during the first Secret Wars, as it was damaged by the Beyonder but not fully destroyed. It is later dismantled by a strike from Thanos wielding the Infinity Gauntlet, which showed us it's full limit.

Later, the Serpent does the same thing, but he assaults it with magic. Because of the type of assault that he used against it, things become a bit murky. The shield was at that time weak against magic, however that doesn't mean that it was weak against non magical forces.

I do not believe that Galactus could destroy, or even damage the shield as it was written pre Secret Wars. Thor later rumples it, but again, King Thor was a magical being.

Since Adamantium should be vulnerable to the same forces that America's Shield was before the final upgrade, I'd vote that the shield would on average surpass the strength of Adamantium, but it wouldn't be by a lot. molecule man casually made it fall apart around the time of secret wars, back when Tigra was an avenger. Whatever happened to Tigra?

Molecule Man also regarded the shield as having the weirdest molecules of all Avengers' weapons.

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
molecule man casually made it fall apart around the time of secret wars, back when Tigra was an avenger. Whatever happened to Tigra?

Owen's control over matter has always been well above cosmic characters like Galactus. His ability to manipulate matter is nearly as effective over matter as magic is, if not on par. Unless of course you believe that a Sky Father level power like the Serpent is on par with a guy that was capable of doing battle with the Beyonder at his most powerful?

As I mentioned, Kulan Gath just bit a chunk out of the shield during the latest issue of the Savage Avengers, which descrbed him to be omnipotent but not omniscient. Kulan Gath is a magical being.

The shield 🛡 can spin like a exorcist possession to fight evil.

Originally posted by Stoic
Owen's control over matter has always been well above cosmic characters like Galactus. His ability to manipulate matter is nearly as effective over matter as magic is, if not on par. Unless of course you believe that a Sky Father level power like the Serpent is on par with a guy that was capable of doing battle with the Beyonder at his most powerful?

As I mentioned, Kulan Gath just bit a chunk out of the shield during the latest issue of the Savage Avengers, which descrbed him to be omnipotent but not omniscient. Kulan Gath is a magical being.

Yeah no shame in the shield failing against the likes of Owen, Beyonder-power or IG users.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao I suddenly wondered about what the shield's PAINT was made of.

It's just normal titanium nitride. Considering some of the attacks it has gone through....

Also, how does it bounce? If it has vibranium in it which absorbs KE (so Cap doesn't get turned into paste), why does it suddenly bounce with perfect conservation of energy?

Also, did you guys know Vibranium isn't considered an element in Marvel?

Fun fact, the paint was completely removed in one issue.

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO TIGRA!

She's been khanned.

Tigra will appear in the next Moon Knight issue iirc.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tigra will appear in the next Moon Knight issue iirc.

Pretty sure Whirly just wants Hood and Jigsaw to rape her and record it again

For some paintless shield action, check out issue 304, by the way.

Originally posted by Stoic
Owen's control over matter has always been well above cosmic characters like Galactus. His ability to manipulate matter is nearly as effective over matter as magic is, if not on par. Unless of course you believe that a Sky Father level power like the Serpent is on par with a guy that was capable of doing battle with the Beyonder at his most powerful? To be fair, Owen deconstructed the shield in Avengers #215 (1982):
https://ibb.co/2Z9FfSz
*At the time, Owen's abilities were limited by his own self-imposed, subconscious limitations.

A few years later, during Secret Wars #11 (1985), Doom would remove Owen's mental blocks, which allowed him to utilize the full breadth of his power:
https://ibb.co/Hqb6MLg


Point being, Owen wasn't yet at his SWII/Beyonder-contending levels when he mucked with the shield... And lip-service aside, I don't recall Owen preforming any feats that were above the Skyfather tier before Doom unlocked him.

The power has always been inside him, even if he didn't fully realize it.

Fun fact, Gambit has the same self-imposed limits regarding the organic matter. But unlike with Owen, unlocking his potential was only temporary.

Better question... was Owen the one who misplaced that one molecule of Cap's shield when recreating it, which many years later caused the vibranium cancer story arc? Or we don't really know?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
The power has always been inside him, even if he didn't fully realize it.Indeed the power itself was always there, but it wasn't always fully accessible to Owen due to his own self-imposed mental limitations. My point was only that the Owen who deconstructed the shield was orders of magnitude weaker than he became after Doom removed the blocks -- IOW, SWII Owen >>>>>>>>>> Avengers #215 Owen. That's a factoid that I don't think Stoic took into consideration in his post.

We don't really know what level pre-SW-unlock Owen was operating at, but I don't recall him doing anything above the Skyfather tier until after Doom jailbroke him.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Fun fact, Gambit has the same self-imposed limits regarding the organic matter. But unlike with Owen, unlocking his potential was only temporary. Owen's fragile mental state has always been an issue for him -- even after Doom's unlock:
https://ibb.co/3km08Nh

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Better question... was Owen the one who misplaced that one molecule of Cap's shield when recreating it, which many years later caused the vibranium cancer story arc? Or we don't really know? Steve himself inadvertently caused the cancer in his shield:
https://ibb.co/k45gVkn

It was a callback to when he wished his shield back together at the end of the original SW:
https://ibb.co/Yf7YMzZ
https://ibb.co/b64xpwq

Originally posted by Galan007
We don't really know what level pre-SW-unlock Owen was operating at, but I don't recall him doing anything above the Skyfather tier until after Doom jailbroke him./B] He recreated all the stars in a galaxy. Thats well above Skyfather tier.

^ Owen preformed that feat in SW #12:
https://ibb.co/gTJjC8B
...So after Doom removed his mental blocks.


As mentioned: lip-service aside, I am fairly certain that Owen never preformed any feats above the Skyfather tier prior to Doom's unlock in SW #11. He has always been touted to have massive potential ever since his first appearance in 1963, but potential power =/= actualized power... Especially when we're talking about a guy whose actualized power at any given time is fully dependent on his mental state.

Those mental blocks were only in play when dealing with organic life forms. That excludes his control over the molecules that compose the shield. Or, am I missing something?

Owen's mental blocks inhibited his power across the board.

Prior to the unlock, Owen didn't realize that he could manipulate organic molecules... Or recreate/reignite all the stars in a galaxy... Or repair multiversal damage... Or unleash blasts that could destroy billions of dimensions. Etc.

The unlock essentially took Owen from a second-rate goon that the F4 could handle, to a being who could rival Beyonder.

As mentioned above: Owen's actualized power at any given time has always been fully dependent on his mental state.

Be that as it may, back in those days power on Galactus' level wouldn't have destroyed that shield, and Galactus has nearly always been portrayed to be superior to Sky Fathers. My stance remains that the shield has been vulnerable to magical attacks, or magical characters. Non magical attacks that dismantled it came by way of molecular manipulation, or powers that ranged well beyond low to mid Cosmic characters on Galactus' level.

Originally posted by Stoic
Be that as it may, back in those days power on Galactus' level wouldn't have destroyed that shield, and Galactus has nearly always been portrayed to be superior to Sky Fathers. My stance remains that the shield has been vulnerable to magical attacks, or magical characters. Non magical attacks that dismantled it came by way of molecular manipulation, or powers that ranged well beyond low to mid Cosmic characters on Galactus' level. Prove it. Give feats for the shield Pre secret wars.

Originally posted by Stoic
Be that as it may, back in those days power on Galactus' level wouldn't have destroyed that shield, and Galactus has nearly always been portrayed to be superior to Sky Fathers. My stance remains that the shield has been vulnerable to magical attacks, or magical characters. Non magical attacks that dismantled it came by way of molecular manipulation, or powers that ranged well beyond low to mid Cosmic characters on Galactus' level. I was simply responding to this post of yours:Originally posted by Stoic
Owen's control over matter has always been well above cosmic characters like Galactus. His ability to manipulate matter is nearly as effective over matter as magic is, if not on par. Unless of course you believe that a Sky Father level power like the Serpent is on par with a guy that was capable of doing battle with the Beyonder at his most powerful? Again, just pointing out that when Owen disassembled the shield, he was not transacting Beyonder-esque levels of power(not even remotely close). Back then, it would be a stretch to say that he was even depicted at Skyfather-level consistently, in terms of actualized power... More times than not, Owen was actually quite pathetic(despite his massive potential), due to his self-imposed mental blocks.

It wasn't until Doom removed Owen's mental blocks a few years after the shield feat, that we saw the truth depths of his power.

Still, his power over inanimate matter... or at least specifically over simple objects with no advanced internal mechanisms (like Tony's suit), seemed absolute.

I mean, you can't find more indestructible items than Surfer's board, Mjolnir and Cap's shield.

And Owen was most impressed with the shield, confirming it as the top dog.

That was Owen's best feat up to that point, for sure.

Still nothing that should be beyond the ability of a Skyfather-ish matter manipulator, though... Unless I'm missing something?

If you want to be technical about it (and "technical" is your second name)...

Both FI Cul and Standoff Thor only succeeded in damaging the shield (and Thor fixed the dent later, but still).

Owen completely obliterated and recreated it from nothing.

Yes, it's way beyond anything the pussy skyfather tier has to offer.

Different abilities, though.

KT hit the shield with his hammer to physically dent it. Cul used rune magic to physically rip it apart. Owen used matter manipulation to disassemble it.

I am curious, though: are there any instances of the shield being able to resist explicit matter manipulation? If so, what were the level of the beings who tried, and failed? Because all jokes aside, I've always been curious what would stop any decently competent matter manipulator from doing what Owen did to the shield. /shrug


Also, is KT using a casual eye-beam to blow a hole through the shield considered canon?:
https://ibb.co/X2Vq7MD
Never been exactly sure where The Reigning fits into continuity.

Earth-3515:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-3515

Only the likes of Rage considered it canon... and he's quite dead, his corpse being ****ed by Somalians.

Yes, KT hit it with his hammer, but I feel confident saying only the Odinforce allowed him to put a dent in the shield --- goes nicely with him fixing it... we only see him using the hammer, but he does mention it's only possible because of the power of Odin.

Shield sometimes no-sells Magneto's powers, other times it gets controlled by Lensherr much like every other metal.

Myron MacLain was unable to separate a single molecule for analysis.

Other than that, I don't remember it facing matter manip, no.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Earth-3515:

https://marvel.fandom.com/wiki/Earth-3515

Only the likes of Rage considered it canon... and he's quite dead, his corpse being ****ed by Somalians.

Yes, KT hit it with his hammer, but I feel confident saying only the Odinforce allowed him to put a dent in the shield --- goes nicely with him fixing it... we only see him using the hammer, but he does mention it's only possible because of the power of Odin.

Shield sometimes no-sells Magneto's powers, other times it gets controlled by Lensherr much like every other metal.

Myron MacLain was unable to separate a single molecule for analysis.

Other than that, I don't remember it facing matter manip, no. Ah yep. That link made me remember that The Reigning storyline is officially listed as an alternate universe in the OHOTMU as well:
https://ibb.co/nLGyYrX
https://ibb.co/phC4DKK



Oh I have no doubt that KT was channeling the Odinforce on some level when he dented(and later repaired) the shield. Makes sense, as we know the shield's durability fails against Skyfather-level power.


That's what I thought, as I'd never seen an instance of the shield resisting explicit matter manipulation.

So this goes back to what I was saying about Owen's power: him using matter manipulation to disassemble the shield, while impressive in its own right, doesn't really seem to slingshot him above the Skyfather tier, imo. Jokes aside, I see no reason why a guy like Firestorm, for example, couldn't do the same basic thing to the shield(like transmute it into an inert gas or somesuch)..?

https://i.ibb.co/vvMKKX1/fixsh.png

We see the same yellow bs energy when Thor hits the shield.

So yeah, hammer imbued with the Odinforce can do what the standard hammer can't.

Remember what happened to Stormbreaker?

Originally posted by Galan007



Oh I have no doubt that KT was channeling the Odinforce on some level when he dented(and later repaired) the shield. Makes sense, as we know the shield's durability fails against Skyfather-level power.

Originally posted by Galan007
So this goes back to what I was saying about Owen's power: him using matter manipulation to disassemble the shield, while impressive in its own right, doesn't really seem to slingshot him above the Skyfather tier, imo. Jokes aside, I see no reason why a guy like Firestorm, for example, couldn't do the same basic thing to the shield(like transmute it into an inert gas or somesuch)..?



I f*cking knew it would be about Firestorm. I f*cking knew it.

Just didn't think you would mention him so soon, lol.

Yeah, I see your point. Matter manipulators are tricky - when they appear in the story, their power rarely fails. So it's hard to argue the shield would withstand Firepower's power. Safe to say most writers even ignore the uru enhancements, as the scar was visible only in the final issue of Fear Itself.

Originally posted by Galan007
Ah yep. That link made me remember that The Reigning storyline is officially listed as an alternate universe in the OHOTMU as well:
https://ibb.co/nLGyYrX
https://ibb.co/phC4DKK


Yes.

I might not be a fan of Superfags, but I can't say I'm not glad you DC guys helped me with my plan to eradicate the thorbags.

We are finally free from the decades of their lies.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


I f*cking knew it would be about Firestorm. I f*cking knew it.

Just didn't think you would mention him so soon, lol.

Yeah, I see your point. Matter manipulators are tricky - when they appear in the story, their power rarely fails. So it's hard to argue the shield would withstand Firepower's power. Safe to say most writers even ignore the uru enhancements, as the scar was visible only in the final issue of Fear Itself. You should know by now that I will always work FS into a discussion whenever possible... Always.

Yeah, that's all I was really getting at. If the shield doesn't have some sort of defined, passive resistance to direct matter manipulation, then it's hard to say what 'level' of power would be required to disassemble it like that -- but most matter manipulators with decent competency *should* be capable of doing the same thing.

Surfer, for example, should also be able to do it... But in a comic, he'd just spam generic 'cosmic blasts', which the shield would soak.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


Yes.

I might not be a fan of Superfags, but I can't say I'm not glad you DC guys helped me with my plan to eradicate the thorbags.

We are finally free from the decades of their lies.
Hmmm, Im genuinely curious. This forum seemingly really hates Surfer and Thor. What did their fans do to put them in their position today?

Some links/quotes can be helpful

Originally posted by Galan007
You should know by now that I will always work FS into a discussion whenever possible... Always.

Yeah, that's all I was really getting at. If the shield doesn't have some sort of defined, passive resistance to direct matter manipulation, then it's hard to say what 'level' of power would be required to disassemble it like that -- but most matter manipulators with decent competency *should* be capable of doing the same thing.

Surfer, for example, should also be able to do it... But in a comic, he'd just spam generic 'cosmic blasts', which the shield would soak.



It's worth noting that Surfer commented that Owen's power - even pre-unlock - was limitless and very much superior to his.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW


It's worth noting that Surfer commented that Owen's power - even pre-unlock - was limitless and very much superior to his. Yes indeed. Owen's always had massive potential. Even in his very first appearance in 1963, Uatu stated that Owen had the power to wipe out universes:
https://ibb.co/xgDVtCX

That's why I keep referring back to potential power vs. actualized power... Because Owen's actualized power at any given time is completely dependent on his mental state.

Back when the mental blocks were in place, Owen was typically treated as a c-list dipshit, who the F4 could handle with mid-diff(his insane potential notwithstanding.) After Doom removed his mental blocks, however, Owen could finally access the depths of his potential, and became a multiversal powerhouse(second only to the Beyonder himself.)

IOW, Owen's raw potential doesn't change. His ability to access said potential is what fluctuates.

Mental block Owen should be valid for a meta tier BZ shifty

Pretty sure Sersi transmuted the shield during the Galactic Storm story line.
Captain America #399.
At least the implication is there, as it isn't seen again until after she changes the Avengers back.