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Who wins?

Destroyer uses his beam and wins

I'm not so sure about that. Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams and I don't recall energy attacks even affecting probes from Green Lantern and Earth Angels.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not so sure about that. Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams and I don't recall energy attacks even affecting probes from Green Lantern and Earth Angels.

And while it wasn't mentioned in JLA: OWAW, Kyle was amped since this was during him becoming Ion(in fact his tie in covered it).

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not so sure about that. Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams and I don't recall energy attacks even affecting probes from Green Lantern and Earth Angels.

B13 Black Lightning did.

OTOH, it sliced Mjolnir up.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
B13 Black Lightning did.

OTOH, it sliced Mjolnir up.
Amped on B13 tech. It was the same probe which no sold Earth Angels BTW.

Several characters have done so.

Originally posted by Delta1938
And while it wasn't mentioned in JLA: OWAW, Kyle was amped since this was during him becoming Ion(in fact his tie in covered it).
Yeah he was.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Amped on B13 tech. It was the same probe which no sold Earth Angels BTW.

Several characters have done so.

Yeah, slicing Mjolnir in half is still very impressive - and I was pointing out that energy attacks HAVE in fact affected probes.

Supes also cracked it with HV and freeze breath. And cauterised another (the one he saved Arthur from). Then later, with his mindblocks off, he was blowing holes in them casually.

My point is, extreme energy attacks are enough to phuck them up. And I believe the Destroyer capable of doing so.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah, slicing Mjolnir in half is still very impressive - and I was pointing out that energy attacks HAVE in fact affected probes.

Supes also cracked it with HV and freeze breath. And cauterised another (the one he saved Arthur from). Then later, with his mindblocks off, he was blowing holes in them casually.

My point is, extreme energy attacks are enough to phuck them up. And I believe the Destroyer capable of doing so.
So are omega beams yet a non active Entropy Aegis no sold it.

Superman was a plot device in OWAW, using him in comparison is pointless.

The Aegis was also retrofitted with Apokoliptian tech, so it wasn't 'just' an Imperiex probe shell, any more than it was 'just' a nuclear tank that fired on Black Lightning.

It was using power of Imperiex just like all the probes did, that was the reason it was retrofitted with Apokolips tech.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was using power of Imperiex just like all the probes did, that was the reason it was retrofitted with Apokolips tech.

OK?

My point was that it wasn't 'just' a probe shell. So saying the Omega Effect was no-sold by it doesn't automatically = a standard probe being able to no-sell it.

Why? All the probes used power of Imperiex, just like Entropy Aegis. The Apokolips tech was used only for it to be wielded against Imperiex.

It's clear that the probes suffered from fiction inconsistency.
Destroyer and all other characters do too. Destroyer beams failed to effect shit that is supposedly weaker than adamantium (it failed to effect stuff that adamantium has cut before).

So you have highs and lows for both Destroyer and different probes.
Black lightning was an extremely low showing (like the gas station for Superman). So much of a low showing that it should be considered PIS (or SMvFL). Mjolnir getting sliced by plain hand beams should be considered PIS looking at other instances of the hand beams and also the supposedly more powerful Disintegration beam.

TBF, Aegis Armor definitely is an exception which cant be used to gauge normal probe's powers

The Aegis Armor was meant to grow to become an Imperiex-level entity. It isnt merely a part of Imperiex powers/probes
https://ibb.co/n83MK2B
https://ibb.co/ZM8dQS2

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OK?

My point was that it wasn't 'just' a probe shell. So saying the Omega Effect was no-sold by it doesn't automatically = a standard probe being able to no-sell it.

Darkseid said, "The Imperiex drone's shell repelled even my Omega Effect!!" Which looks to me it wasn't the Apokolipsian technology being a factor.

https://bit.ly/3ibIveS

Also(not about the Omega Effect) those Probes were durable enough they contained energy that when discharged, fatally injured Hippolyta(who I believe is on par with Wonder Woman) in armor AND wearing the Gauntlet of Atlas(although I can't remember if it was one Probe that exploded or both she fought), and nearly killed WW too while seemingly under the same circumstances (certainly the armor, not sure on Gauntlet).

Originally posted by abhilegend
Why? All the probes used power of Imperiex, just like Entropy Aegis. The Apokolips tech was used only for it to be wielded against Imperiex.

You and I both know whatever argument is being used for the Aegis, can also be turned and used against the nuclear tank.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You and I both know whatever argument is being used for the Aegis, can also be turned and used against the nuclear tank.
Sure but Destroyer has worse showings as well.

Oh it does, for sure. But I like using their best showings. My main point was that energy attacks HAVE affected the probes in the past.

Is it something that the Destroyer on a good or best day can replicate? Yes, imo. Slicing Mjolnir with an energy attack isn't something say, Human Torch could do - it's still damn impressive.

At their best the probes stalemated Mordru, beat 100,000 daxamites and hospitalized 90% of Earth's heroes. Destroyer has nothing on that level.

OK? None of them used energy attacks that could slice Mjolnir (one of the best energy manipulators) in half, unless you can show it, I guess.

But its your thread, you tell me who wins

Originally posted by abhilegend
So are omega beams yet a non active Entropy Aegis no sold it.

Superman was a plot device in OWAW, using him in comparison is pointless.

Superman's entire existence is plot device. Comparing him to any other comic book character period is kind of pointless.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OK? None of them used energy attacks that could slice Mjolnir (one of the best energy manipulators) in half, unless you can show it, I guess.

But its your thread, you tell me who wins
Eh? Mjolnir has been shattered by a mountain destroying blast.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You and I both know whatever argument is being used for the Aegis, can also be turned and used against the nuclear tank.

Explain.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Explain.

The text says that the Aegis was a shell, retrofitted with Apokoliptian science. We can easily see that it's completely different from 'normal' probes - it's way smaller, for one (the size of John Henry). It has different armour (just look at it). We even see parademons welding it, lol.

Based on all of this, Abhi argues it is still = a normal Imperiex drone. Even though it is radically different in characteristics and looks. And therefore, it no-selling the OE is a feat for a normal drone.

Now, the tank that fired on Black Lightning. How amped was it? Never said. Yet, that tank is >>>a 'normal' (whatever that would mean) nuclear tank, according to abhi - because of a throwaway line about B13 somewhere (I can't recall exactly where it was said that B13 amped the tanks and how, so if you have the scan it's helpful).

That's what I mean.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The text says that the Aegis was a shell, retrofitted with Apokoliptian science. We can easily see that it's completely different from 'normal' probes - it's way smaller, for one (the size of John Henry). It has different armour (just look at it). We even see parademons welding it, lol.

Based on all of this, Abhi argues it is still = a normal Imperiex drone. Even though it is radically different in characteristics and looks. And therefore, it no-selling the OE is a feat for a normal drone.

Now, the tank that fired on Black Lightning. How amped was it? Never said. Yet, that tank is >>>a 'normal' (whatever that would mean) nuclear tank, according to abhi - because of a throwaway line about B13 somewhere (I can't recall exactly where it was said that B13 amped the tanks and how, so if you have the scan it's helpful).

That's what I mean.
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11111/111113915/8159694-8156914-2021_9_18_13_12_18.png

Its advanced tech, using it to lowball probes is lulzworthy

Nice, so that's the Blackhawk stuff. No scans on the tanks, then? Or did Ferris AIRCRAFT also build the tanks?

And how were they amped?

And where did I lowball? This is me, not Carv or JBL, lol. I was asking about the tanks, NOT aircraft. Because my argument is that you're stretching something that is only alluded to, to bolster your argument, whilst ignoring other evidence (which is much more detailed) when it suits you.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Nice, so that's the Blackhawk stuff. No scans on the tanks, then? Or did Ferris AIRCRAFT also build the tanks?

And how were they amped?

And where did I lowball? This is me, not Carv or JBL, lol. I was asking about the tanks, NOT aircraft. Because my argument is that you're stretching something that is only alluded to, to bolster your argument, whilst ignoring other evidence (which is much more detailed) when it suits you.
Every piece of technology Lexcorp had was upgraded with B13 tech at the end of Y2K storyline.

You realize that I'm not carver and you can't trap me in a debate with mjolnir slicing destroyer against "totally normal" tank against Imperiex Probe, right?

I'm not saying that?

I am saying you are equating the Entropy Aegis to a normal probe, when there exists far more evidence within the story that its different to a probe - whilst at the same time, changing your stance when it comes to the B13 tanks.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The Aegis was also retrofitted with Apokoliptian tech, so it wasn't 'just' an Imperiex probe shell, any more than it was 'just' a nuclear tank that fired on Black Lightning.

I mean, we can clearly see that it's human sized - it has the S-shield - looks completely different - even see a parademon in the background WELDING it - so no, it is NOT the same as a normal probe.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11/119238/2281796-entropyaegis.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The text says that the Aegis was a shell, retrofitted with Apokoliptian science. We can easily see that it's completely different from 'normal' probes - it's way smaller, for one (the size of John Henry). It has different armour (just look at it). We even see parademons welding it, lol.

Based on all of this, Abhi argues it is still = a normal Imperiex drone. Even though it is radically different in characteristics and looks. And therefore, it no-selling the OE is a feat for a normal drone.

Now, the tank that fired on Black Lightning. How amped was it? Never said. Yet, that tank is >>>a 'normal' (whatever that would mean) nuclear tank, according to abhi - because of a throwaway line about B13 somewhere (I can't recall exactly where it was said that B13 amped the tanks and how, so if you have the scan it's helpful).

That's what I mean.

Except nothing about enhancing the durability or anything is implied. It refers to the Apokolips tech making it a weapon that will "bite the hand that fed it," that it's "anti-venom on a cosmic scale," and "it is the power of Imperiex turned against him." 3 different ways of saying the Apokolips tech is using Imperiex's own power against him, pretty specific.

https://bit.ly/3kQRm7N

None of these apply to the armor is more durable because of it. Abd I already posted Darkseid talking about the SHELL taking it.

https://bit.ly/3ibIveS

"The Imperiex drone's shell repelled even my Omega Effect." Not, "The Imoeridx drone's shell enhanced by our technology " or some sort of variation. If the writer intended it to be because of Apokolips tech enhancement, don't you think he probably would have had Darkseid bring it up when saying it repelled even his Omega Effect?

And Abhi posted on B13 tech. The very scan says the B13 tech is from LexCorp. "LexCorp used B13 technology to modify it." The tanks were from LexCorp. Unless you're going to argue he only used B13 tech on aircraft that started from a rival but LexCorp modified but not their own tanks.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Except nothing about enhancing the durability or anything is implied. It refers to the Apokolips tech making it a weapon that will "bite the hand that fed it," that it's "anti-venom on a cosmic scale," and "it is the power of Imperiex turned against him." 3 different ways of saying the Apokolips tech is using Imperiex's own power against him, pretty specific.

https://bit.ly/3kQRm7N

None of these apply to the armor is more durable because of it. Abd I already posted Darkseid talking about the SHELL taking it.

https://bit.ly/3ibIveS

"The Imperiex drone's shell repelled even my Omega Effect." Not, "The Imoeridx drone's shell enhanced by our technology " or some sort of variation. If the writer intended it to be because of Apokolips tech enhancement, don't you think he probably would have had Darkseid bring it up when saying it repelled even his Omega Effect?

And Abhi posted on B13 tech. The very scan says the B13 tech is from LexCorp. "LexCorp used B13 technology to modify it." The tanks were from LexCorp. Unless you're going to argue he only used B13 tech on aircraft that started from a rival but LexCorp modified but not their own tanks.

All agreed.

Nothing was said that the nuclear tanks were amped in their destructive output.

THAT is what I was saying. You want to argue that nothing was explicitly said about Apokoliptian tech amping the shell? That's OK - but even less was said about the aircraft (let alone the tanks).

So in the interest of fairness, why are we attributing amped characteristics to these tanks which were never explained, yet with the Aegis, we handwave it all away and say they're the same (when they clearly don't look the same)?

You want to use Mordru, or Daxamites, or whatever else, sure, go ahead. My bugbear is that Abhi is equating the two, yet with the tanks we have to use info gleaned from a throwaway comment about a completely different piece of tech.

I am NOT arguing that the Aegis didn't have Imperiex tech in it, or that the base wasn't a probe.

Just to be clear: I am arguing that the tanks were amped, and that the Aegis is an Imperiex probe's shell, amped. I am NOT lowballing at all, lmao.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
All agreed.

Nothing was said that the nuclear tanks were amped in their destructive output.

THAT is what I was saying. You want to argue that nothing was explicitly said about Apokoliptian tech amping the shell? That's OK - but even less was said about the aircraft (let alone the tanks).

So in the interest of fairness, why are we attributing amped characteristics to these tanks which were never explained, yet with the Aegis, we handwave it all away and say they're the same (when they clearly don't look the same)?

You want to use Mordru, or Daxamites, or whatever else, sure, go ahead. My bugbear is that Abhi is equating the two, yet with the tanks we have to use info gleaned from a throwaway comment about a completely different piece of tech.

I am NOT arguing that the Aegis didn't have Imperiex tech in it, or that the base wasn't a probe.

Well, the SUPERMAN: OWAW SECRET FILES says they're "lightyears ahead of any conventional armored tank." Bottom left.

https://bit.ly/3oewt8F

I want to say around the same time Superman had to be in other places doing combat, we just saw tanks more like the real world. And.....I don't know if there's any tanks that have been nuclear powered before. There was a car design, but I don't remember if that got past design or they actually made a prototype (in fact if you played FALLOUT 3, that's what the cars you can't drive but make explode are based off).

But haven't heard of tanks. But what do you mean by amped here? Compared to conventional tanks? Well if that's the standard then....yeah, they would be. Could you quote where your argument against them being "amped" began? Otherwise I can't really go much further than they're definitely beyond conventional tanks on responding.

And I thought it was about Black Lightning being amped from the tank's nuclear reactor being detonated or whatever the phrase was. Maybe Abhi argued something else, maybe you misunderstood, I'll need to see.

On you bringing up equating the Entropy Aegis to exactly the same as an Imperiex Probe being wrong, if Abhi were arguing Steel damaging the Warworld tendrils(after Warworld absorbed Imperiex's energy) when Superman+Wonder Woman/Captain Marvel/Captain Atom weren't accomplishing anything against them, I'd agree with you. The Aegis was specifically made to be a weapon against Imperiex, and that's why Steel could damage the tendrils when Superman couldn't.

But tanking the Omega Effect? Darkseid's words support that was because the Probes are just that durable.

Those are Lex's 'flying tanks'. You can clearly see in your scan that there is no tread on them and that they hover.

Contrast that with the tank Lane is in. Treaded, and completely different to the one seen in your scan.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Those are Lex's 'flying tanks'. You can clearly see in your scan that there is no tread on them and that they hover.

Contrast that with the tank Lane is in. Treaded, and completely different to the one seen in your scan.

So they are.

But this fails to address the majority of my post, including the tank being nuclear.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I'm not saying that?

I am saying you are equating the Entropy Aegis to a normal probe, when there exists far more evidence within the story that its different to a probe - whilst at the same time, changing your stance when it comes to the B13 tanks.



I mean, we can clearly see that it's human sized - it has the S-shield - looks completely different - even see a parademon in the background WELDING it - so no, it is NOT the same as a normal probe.

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/uploads/original/11/119238/2281796-entropyaegis.jpg
What's your point? It was painted and it became different?

Even if we discount Entropy Aegis, the probes have a really high average, better than Destroyer at least.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So they are.

But this fails to address the majority of my post, including the tank being nuclear.

Because I had already alluded to the same points you made - see my post about 'normal' nuclear tanks (because obv we don't have RL nuke tanks, lol). But 'amped' relative to comic book tanks, I guess would be the point.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's your point? It was painted and it became different?

Even if we discount Entropy Aegis, the probes have a really high average, better than Destroyer at least.

It wasn't just a paint job, as my post (which you glossed over) said. Lulzworthy.

It was much smaller, has a different helmet, neck, hell, it even has abs, lol. It is completely different. And again, you can see a parademon welding it in the background of the scan I posted. Unless you can't see it?

And like I said, no issue with using other showings - my point since page 1, since you first brought it up, is that the Aegis =/= a normal standard Imperiex probe. Yet you are attempting to die on this hill, when in the same breath arguing that the B13 tech amped the tank. I agree with the latter point (the tank was amped), but I also say DS amped the probe to make the Aegis.

Hmmm, Im not sure about arguing Entropy Aegis was diffrent from normal probes based on its appearance design. Because in comics appearance design doesnt necessarily reflect to power levels (Anti-Monitor for example)

But Entropy Aegis was indeed beyond normal probes based on its feats imo

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because I had already alluded to the same points you made - see my post about 'normal' nuclear tanks (because obv we don't have RL nuke tanks, lol). But 'amped' relative to comic book tanks, I guess would be the point.

Comic mentioned them being "Luthor's armaments" unless it meant something else(like White House security system as a possibility) I'd guess B13 enhanced/modified/augmented/whatever tanks.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Hmmm, Im not sure about arguing Entropy Aegis was diffrent from normal probes based on its appearance design. Because in comics appearance design doesnt necessarily reflect to power levels (Anti-Monitor for example)

But Entropy Aegis was indeed beyond normal probes based on its feats imo

Well ,again: my argument is that Abhi is accepting that the nuclear tank was amped, based on flimsier evidence than what is being presented for the Aegis.

I mean, what evidence did he present that the tank was amped? He posted a scan of Ferris Aircraft talking about their planes. That's it.

Again: I agree that the tanks were amped. BUT, based on a similar logic, I also say that the Aegis was an amped probe shell.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well ,again: my argument is that Abhi is accepting that the nuclear tank was amped, based on flimsier evidence than what is being presented for the Aegis.

I mean, what evidence did he present that the tank was amped? He posted a scan of Ferris Aircraft talking about their planes. That's it.

Again: I agree that the tanks were amped. BUT, based on a similar logic, I also say that the Aegis was an amped probe shell.
Not arguing that. Just pointed out appearance design not always reflects to power levels

Though from my point of view I would say tanks example either is a low showing for probes or they were amped

And flip side, Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams also can be a high end showing for probes or can be argued EA was different from normal probes based on what logic you want to use here

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because I had already alluded to the same points you made - see my post about 'normal' nuclear tanks (because obv we don't have RL nuke tanks, lol). But 'amped' relative to comic book tanks, I guess would be the point.



It wasn't just a paint job, as my post (which you glossed over) said. Lulzworthy.

It was much smaller, has a different helmet, neck, hell, it even has abs, lol. It is completely different. And again, you can see a parademon welding it in the background of the scan I posted. Unless you can't see it?

And like I said, no issue with using other showings - my point since page 1, since you first brought it up, is that the Aegis =/= a normal standard Imperiex probe. Yet you are attempting to die on this hill, when in the same breath arguing that the B13 tech amped the tank. I agree with the latter point (the tank was amped), but I also say DS amped the probe to make the Aegis.
Yeah and Mcguiness Superman was different from Schultz Superman because Mcguiness drew Superman like the Hulk.

Stop talking nonsense, I'm not carver.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Not arguing that. Just pointed out appearance design not always reflects to power levels

Though from my point of view I would say tanks example either is a low showing for probes or they were amped

And flip side, Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams also can be a high end showing for probes or can be argued EA was different from normal probes based on what logic you want to use here
There was no difference, Apokolips tech was used to turn the probe against Imperiex, it was using the power of Imperiex only. Even the Quintessence were surprised to see Steel using power of Imperiex.

I mean it was flat out stated to be a little bit of Imperiex and Steel had to learn entropic power control.

https://i.postimg.cc/fV2cQBXN/image.jpg

Just like the rest of the probes. There's literally no evidence that the Apokolips tech changed anything other than turning the probe against Imperiex.

So still nothing on the tanks?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Yeah and Mcguiness Superman was different from Schultz Superman because Mcguiness drew Superman like the Hulk.

Stop talking nonsense, I'm not carver.

What nonsense? Like I said, why don't you tell us who wins this thread lol

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So still nothing on the tanks?
Yeah, you're right. Every tech in Lexcorp was upgraded except for that tank. Silly us. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What nonsense? Like I said, why don't you tell us who wins this thread lol
That it needs to be explicitly stated that the exact same tank which exploded was upgraded by B13 and Entropy Aegis needs to be confirmed to NOT upgraded by Apokolips tech.

Its literally heads I win, tails you lose kind of nonsense.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Who wins?

Who is controlling the Destroyer?

User matters a lot, as Mangog confirmed recently.

Just my opinion, but I believe that the Aegis was far more powerful than those probes.

Double post.

Originally posted by Stoic
Just my opinion, but I believe that the Aegis was far more powerful than those probes.

Of course it is - the Aegis absorbs and nullifies all energies - something that a probe doesn't do:

https://i.postimg.cc/c1XmgpTr/Aegis5.jpg

(With thanks to Phildo).

So using its performance against energy attacks isn't that useful when talking about a normal probe.

Probe wins.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Of course it is - the Aegis absorbs and nullifies all energies - something that a probe doesn't do:

https://i.postimg.cc/c1XmgpTr/Aegis5.jpg

(With thanks to Phildo).

So using its performance against energy attacks isn't that useful when talking about a normal probe.
And in the same issue ripped apart space-time to enter a higher plane of existence which outside of time
https://ibb.co/mX7LjGW
https://ibb.co/PF0tMZy

So yeah, EA is pretty OP and should be beyond normal probes based on feats

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Who is controlling the Destroyer?

User matters a lot, as Mangog confirmed recently.
Let's say Loki

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
What nonsense? Like I said, why don't you tell us who wins this thread lol

So what I pointed out earlier is ignored just like a lot of things(by qwerty too)? Gotcha.

Originally posted by Delta1938
So what I pointed out earlier is ignored just like a lot of things(by qwerty too)? Gotcha.


Like what

If we are talking about low showings, how about Destroyer almost dying compared to a totally depowered Odin tanking Zelia's blasts.

https://i.postimg.cc/RWHjG0v5/RCO029.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/hzpwhz1x/RCO030.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/8fcYvpZY/RCO031.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
There was no difference, Apokolips tech was used to turn the probe against Imperiex, it was using the power of Imperiex only. Even the Quintessence were surprised to see Steel using power of Imperiex.

I mean it was flat out stated to be a little bit of Imperiex and Steel had to learn entropic power control.

https://i.postimg.cc/fV2cQBXN/image.jpg

Just like the rest of the probes. There's literally no evidence that the Apokolips tech changed anything other than turning the probe against Imperiex.

I noticed you forgot to post the preceding page, where they explicitly state the Aegis absorbs and nullifies all energy. Curious, that. I am sure the probes did the same, correct?

Anyway, a better res scan than Phil's:

https://i.postimg.cc/RFBF4RKx/RCO003-1582502755.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I noticed you forgot to post the preceding page, where they explicitly state the Aegis absorbs and nullifies all energy. Curious, that. I am sure the probes did the same, correct?

Anyway, a better res scan than Phil's:

https://i.postimg.cc/RFBF4RKx/RCO003-1582502755.jpg
Again, you're using something which isn't essential for a probe to do to establish something entirely different altogether.

The Aegis was a piece of Imperiex, it used entropic power like the probes did. You still have to prove the Apokolips tech made it more powerful or different.

Geez, Can we just view it as a high showing for probes and the tanks example just a low showing for probes

And per forum rules( Full Capacity, The "No PIS" Rule etc) , We'll ignore low showings.

This will make things much easier

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Geez, Can we just view it as a high showing for probes and the tanks example just a low showing for probes

And per forum rules( Full Capacity, The "No PIS" Rule etc) , We'll ignore low showings.

This will make things much easier
Shh, that's not how things work. It's mjolnir slicing Destroyer vs getting killed by a tank Probe here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Like what

Like unless they meant something else, the tanks being Luthor's armaments, as the book says. I mean, could be the White House security system upgraded, but nuclear tanks? Sure not the hover tanks I thought, but that's a pretty decent upgrade. I also never got a quote for what exactly you're disputing with Abhi on the tanks.

You keep bringing up what Professor Hamilton said about the Entropy Aegis to argue against it tanking the Omega Effect as the Imperiex Probe on it's own but Apokolipsian technology (whether you're arguing it was the tech itself or in addition). But why wouldn't Darkseid bring that up? He said the drone's shell. Sounds like the Probe itself is just that durable. So either what Hamilton is observing is the tech later(perhaps wasn't on) or just the property of the Probe itself. In the next page of the scan you posted, Steel talks about getting a crash course in entropic power control, says he doesn't even begin to understand the "hunk of alien metal" and Superman says "it's a little bit of Imperiex himself."

https://bit.ly/3unJptG

And Mr. Terrific said similar about Imperiex makes the Probes from himself.

https://bit.ly/3in1Mdx

I mean, I think the shell is just that durable, but could be the Entropy thing. Regardless, Darkseid didn't attribute it tanking the OE to Apokolipsian technology.

As for the argument Qwerty made about the Entropy Aegis did what Probes couldn't, maybe not.

In YOUNG JUSTICE: OWAW we see Probes on the Russian steepes in 2500 AD.

https://bit.ly/3mhHF1M

https://bit.ly/2WoHoRt

But later during their time bouncing around the time stream, we see them in 2020 when Earth gets turned into energy anr what's left becomes a black hole.

https://bit.ly/2Yd3wiz

https://bit.ly/2Y4ipnD

https://bit.ly/3kWtNul

And when at a point, "--so remote that time and dates as we understand them no longer apply"

https://bit.ly/3F3TsZZ

--a Probe tracks their "temporal wake."

https://bit.ly/3uoeYnp

So for all we know Steel breaking through time and space was just something the Probes can do on their own, but it just wasn't fully explored. Could they already have been there? Perhaps, but tracking temporal stuff sounds like something someone(or in this case something) time traveling would have. And we see them at other points, even after on Earth centuries after they destroyed it.

I mean DarkSaint, Hell, I can even give evidence against your argument about the Entropy Aegis is smaller to fit Steel. We saw them change size to Brainiac-13 size.

https://bit.ly/3mhHjZ0

I mean unless it's Imperiex Prime teleporting in or something. But if not, for all we know the Entropy Aegis is actually the natural size of the Probes but we normally see them bigger. No worse an argument than ignoring what Darkseid said about the shell took the Omega Effect.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Again, you're using something which isn't essential for a probe to do to establish something entirely different altogether.

The Aegis was a piece of Imperiex, it used entropic power like the probes did. You still have to prove the Apokolips tech made it more powerful or different.

The size and look doesn't make it different?

The fact it absorbs and nullifies all energy directed at it (even when no one is in it), something that no probe did, doesn't make it different?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Like unless they meant something else, the tanks being Luthor's armaments, as the book says. I mean, could be the White House security system upgraded, but nuclear tanks? Sure not the hover tanks I thought, but that's a pretty decent upgrade. I also never got a quote for what exactly you're disputing with Abhi on the tanks.

You keep bringing up what Professor Hamilton said about the Entropy Aegis to argue against it tanking the Omega Effect as the Imperiex Probe on it's own but Apokolipsian technology (whether you're arguing it was the tech itself or in addition). But why wouldn't Darkseid bring that up? He said the drone's shell. Sounds like the Probe itself is just that durable. So either what Hamilton is observing is the tech later(perhaps wasn't on) or just the property of the Probe itself. In the next page of the scan you posted, Steel talks about getting a crash course in entropic power control, says he doesn't even begin to understand the "hunk of alien metal" and Superman says "it's a little bit of Imperiex himself."

https://bit.ly/3unJptG

And Mr. Terrific said similar about Imperiex makes the Probes from himself.

https://bit.ly/3in1Mdx

I mean, I think the shell is just that durable, but could be the Entropy thing. Regardless, Darkseid didn't attribute it tanking the OE to Apokolipsian technology.

As for the argument Qwerty made about the Entropy Aegis did what Probes couldn't, maybe not.

In YOUNG JUSTICE: OWAW we see Probes on the Russian steepes in 2500 AD.

https://bit.ly/3mhHF1M

https://bit.ly/2WoHoRt

But later during their time bouncing around the time stream, we see them in 2020 when Earth gets turned into energy anr what's left becomes a black hole.

https://bit.ly/2Yd3wiz

https://bit.ly/2Y4ipnD

https://bit.ly/3kWtNul

And when at a point, "--so remote that time and dates as we understand them no longer apply"

https://bit.ly/3F3TsZZ

--a Probe tracks their "temporal wake."

https://bit.ly/3uoeYnp

So for all we know Steel breaking through time and space was just something the Probes can do on their own, but it just wasn't fully explored. Could they already have been there? Perhaps, but tracking temporal stuff sounds like something someone(or in this case something) time traveling would have. And we see them at other points, even after on Earth centuries after they destroyed it.

I mean DarkSaint, Hell, I can even give evidence against your argument about the Entropy Aegis is smaller to fit Steel. We saw them change size to Brainiac-13 size.

https://bit.ly/3mhHjZ0

I mean unless it's Imperiex Prime teleporting in or something. But if not, for all we know the Entropy Aegis is actually the natural size of the Probes but we normally see them bigger. No worse an argument than ignoring what Darkseid said about the shell took the Omega Effect.

My dispute is this.

I am 100% in agreement with abhi and you that the tanks were amped. 100%. Do an advanced search, for 'B13' posts by me - you will see me arguing that they were amped as far back as 2014:

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Black Lightning? When he was amped by B13 and a nuke? Isn't that leaving out context? Or are you lowballing?

HOWEVER, just as I argue that the tanks were amped, I use the EXACT same logic to argue that the Aegis is =/= a probe. All this arguing from me about the tanks, is to highlight the relative lack of evidence for the tanks being amped - and yet WE both agree they are amped. Look at the evidence we use to argue the tanks are amped - a throwaway line from a book not even in the OWAW TPB, some sketches from the Secret Files....and yet we BOTH agree it was amped.

Abhi goes to extreme lengths to argue that the probes and the Aegis are the same. Even goes to argue that it's artist's depictions, lol. But Mahnke draws the probes the same way every other artist did:

https://i.postimg.cc/4mKpp5xx/RCO019-1582502715.jpg

With little faces, capes, armour on (no abs, lol), helmet, the works.

In short, the Aegis was different. Abhi seems to think I am lowballing (lulzworthy!) - when in fact, I have and AM arguing that the tanks were amped with B13 tech, had a nuke, and was channelled through BL at a specific point - hardly a lowball. But he is so used to trying to win against JBL and Carv and Darthgoober, he doesn't see that I am arguing something different - that it was amped, and that the same logic should be applied to the Aegis. Only difference is, we have a LOT more evidence for the Aegis b being different, than for the nuke tanks being different.

Abhi is using the Aegis' feats for the probes. Can he not use,....you know, the probes' feats for the probes?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Like unless they meant something else, the tanks being Luthor's armaments, as the book says. I mean, could be the White House security system upgraded, but nuclear tanks? Sure not the hover tanks I thought, but that's a pretty decent upgrade. I also never got a quote for what exactly you're disputing with Abhi on the tanks.

You keep bringing up what Professor Hamilton said about the Entropy Aegis to argue against it tanking the Omega Effect as the Imperiex Probe on it's own but Apokolipsian technology (whether you're arguing it was the tech itself or in addition). But why wouldn't Darkseid bring that up? He said the drone's shell. Sounds like the Probe itself is just that durable. So either what Hamilton is observing is the tech later(perhaps wasn't on) or just the property of the Probe itself. In the next page of the scan you posted, Steel talks about getting a crash course in entropic power control, says he doesn't even begin to understand the "hunk of alien metal" and Superman says "it's a little bit of Imperiex himself."

https://bit.ly/3unJptG

And Mr. Terrific said similar about Imperiex makes the Probes from himself.

https://bit.ly/3in1Mdx

I mean, I think the shell is just that durable, but could be the Entropy thing. Regardless, Darkseid didn't attribute it tanking the OE to Apokolipsian technology.

As for the argument Qwerty made about the Entropy Aegis did what Probes couldn't, maybe not.

In YOUNG JUSTICE: OWAW we see Probes on the Russian steepes in 2500 AD.

https://bit.ly/3mhHF1M

https://bit.ly/2WoHoRt

But later during their time bouncing around the time stream, we see them in 2020 when Earth gets turned into energy anr what's left becomes a black hole.

https://bit.ly/2Yd3wiz

https://bit.ly/2Y4ipnD

https://bit.ly/3kWtNul

And when at a point, "--so remote that time and dates as we understand them no longer apply"

https://bit.ly/3F3TsZZ

--a Probe tracks their "temporal wake."

https://bit.ly/3uoeYnp

So for all we know Steel breaking through time and space was just something the Probes can do on their own, but it just wasn't fully explored. Could they already have been there? Perhaps, but tracking temporal stuff sounds like something someone(or in this case something) time traveling would have. And we see them at other points, even after on Earth centuries after they destroyed it.

I mean DarkSaint, Hell, I can even give evidence against your argument about the Entropy Aegis is smaller to fit Steel. We saw them change size to Brainiac-13 size.

https://bit.ly/3mhHjZ0

I mean unless it's Imperiex Prime teleporting in or something. But if not, for all we know the Entropy Aegis is actually the natural size of the Probes but we normally see them bigger. No worse an argument than ignoring what Darkseid said about the shell took the Omega Effect.
Well, For my part. Entropy Aegis not only just broke space-time, but also entered a higher plane of existence where the Quintessence was sitting and judging, Which is more impressive than just travelling through time imo

Also The EA was meant to grow to become an Imperiex-level entity. So from my point of view it not just some random probe, It should be growing more powerful as time passed
https://ibb.co/n83MK2B
https://ibb.co/ZM8dQS2

Regardless. Like I said before either EA no sold Omega Beams is a high showing for probes and Tanks example just a low showing for probes. We'll ignore low showings per forum rules

Or we can make arguments that based on some implications, Like the tank was amped and EA wasnt just a normal probe etc

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The size and look doesn't make it different?

The fact it absorbs and nullifies all energy directed at it (even when no one is in it), something that no probe did, doesn't make it different?
No, it doesn't

Cool.

Show me a probe being that size, looking like that, and absorbing/nullifying all energy please.

Why?

Because they're the same, so they should look the same and do the same things.

Aegis feats don't transfer to Probes. Come on, guys...

About "It should have same appearance" part. I personally disagree with that

Take Wally for example. You can see here in only two pages space. Wally's appearance completely changed. Different constume and even had different lightning color.
https://ibb.co/N10Y5TQ
https://ibb.co/nrSXBXP

But there is no drastically power levels change mentioned here

Though I do agree EA's absorbing and nullifying all energy isnt something normal probes seems to be capable, Thus should be more durable than norma probes

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because they're the same, so they should look the same and do the same things.
Why would that matter? Why don't you prove that the Apokolips tech amped or changed its powers? It was a piece of Imperiex and channeled entropic power, just like any probe.

Its like asking to match exact same feat for green Lanterns, of course there's gonna be different feats for different Lanterns. Doesn't mean anything.

I say we un-ban Trollberto so we can all get along and rag on him instead.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Aegis feats don't transfer to Probes. Come on, guys...


fair enough. Probes should be more than able to stand on their own feats.

Originally posted by -Pr-
Aegis feats don't transfer to Probes. Come on, guys...

The argument this started from was the Entropy Aegis tanking the Omega Effect. Arguments about the Apokolipsian tech were made. But Darkseid's description was all it was turning Imperiex's own power against him.
Originally posted by Delta1938
Apokolips tech making it a weapon that will "bite the hand that fed it," that it's "anti-venom on a cosmic scale," and "it is the power of Imperiex turned against him." 3 different ways of saying the Apokolips tech is using Imperiex's own power against him, pretty specific.

https://bit.ly/3kQRm7N



Then after it takes the OE, after Superman leaves, Darkseid says the "Imperiex drone's shell repelled even my Omega Effect" He says nothing of Apokolipsian technology being part of it.

https://bit.ly/3ibIveS

If the EA tanked them because of the Probe's shell, wouldn't that be a feat of the shell, so the Probes?

The other stuff I posted was just to argue actually there are examples that the Probes may have done some of the things being used to argue against the EA taking the OE because of the Probe's durability.

If we were to remove all of the energy absorption possibilities, how would it go down if they fought strictly hand to hand? This argument doesn't appear to be gaining any ground on either side.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Let's say Loki



Loki should be a good choice.

Not too uber (Odin) and not too weak (wounded Frigga).

Encouraging people to use its average showings, basically. Which should be something we all ought to do more often, you know

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
My dispute is this.

I am 100% in agreement with abhi and you that the tanks were amped. 100%. Do an advanced search, for 'B13' posts by me - you will see me arguing that they were amped as far back as 2014:



HOWEVER, just as I argue that the tanks were amped, I use the EXACT same logic to argue that the Aegis is =/= a probe. All this arguing from me about the tanks, is to highlight the relative lack of evidence for the tanks being amped - and yet WE both agree they are amped. Look at the evidence we use to argue the tanks are amped - a throwaway line from a book not even in the OWAW TPB, some sketches from the Secret Files....and yet we BOTH agree it was amped.

Abhi goes to extreme lengths to argue that the probes and the Aegis are the same. Even goes to argue that it's artist's depictions, lol. But Mahnke draws the probes the same way every other artist did:

https://i.postimg.cc/4mKpp5xx/RCO019-1582502715.jpg

With little faces, capes, armour on (no abs, lol), helmet, the works.

In short, the Aegis was different. Abhi seems to think I am lowballing (lulzworthy!) - when in fact, I have and AM arguing that the tanks were amped with B13 tech, had a nuke, and was channelled through BL at a specific point - hardly a lowball. But he is so used to trying to win against JBL and Carv and Darthgoober, he doesn't see that I am arguing something different - that it was amped, and that the same logic should be applied to the Aegis. Only difference is, we have a LOT more evidence for the Aegis b being different, than for the nuke tanks being different.

Abhi is using the Aegis' feats for the probes. Can he not use,....you know, the probes' feats for the probes?

I actually missed this and Qwerty's post when I scrolled through and replied to Pr.

Did Abhi argue other things for the Aegis that I missed? I do believe I asked this question before without an answer. I ask because if he argued other things, then you continuing this would make sense. If not, you're either trolling him or outright ignoring what Darkseid said about it tanking the OE. It's like you acknowledged it but still don't count it. On top of that, your, "Can he not use the probes' feats for the probes?" is just wrong because he has.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I'm not so sure about that. Entropy Aegis no sold omega beams and I don't recall energy attacks even affecting probes from Green Lantern and Earth Angels.

I noted Kyle was actually amped at the time(though an unknown degrer) with it being when he was becoming Ion, and Abhi agreed. So he brought up two examples that are what you asked for, in addition to the EA which evidence does support it was the Probe's durability, not Apokolips tech.


http://memes.ucoz.com/_nw/13/29922471.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
At their best the probes stalemated Mordru, beat 100,000 daxamites and hospitalized 90% of Earth's heroes. Destroyer has nothing on that level.

But all of this got forgotten because of the argument over whether tanking the OE should count or not.

But you say he uses the Aegis' feats. Plural. Again, did I miss Abhi arguing other feats from it?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, For my part. Entropy Aegis not only just broke space-time, but also entered a higher plane of existence where the Quintessence was sitting and judging, Which is more impressive than just travelling through time imo

Also The EA was meant to grow to become an Imperiex-level entity. So from my point of view it not just some random probe, It should be growing more powerful as time passed
https://ibb.co/n83MK2B
https://ibb.co/ZM8dQS2

Regardless. Like I said before either EA no sold Omega Beams is a high showing for probes and Tanks example just a low showing for probes. We'll ignore low showings per forum rules

Or we can make arguments that based on some implications, Like the tank was amped and EA wasnt just a normal probe etc

Oh I get what you're saying. The problem is you're bringing up other things to argue the EA was more powerful because Probes didn't do that sort of thing, except we do have examples like that. And I agree breaking through is more than just time travel, but....can you prove the EA could do that but Probes couldn't? I don't think you can.

The EA tanking the OE however is supported to be the durability of the Probe because of what Darkseid said. If we didn't have what Darkseid said, you'd have a point.

As for what it was meant to do, that's fine and dandy, but doesn't dispute what Darkseid said about the "drone's shell " tanking the OE. Unless you have something more specific to contradict what Darkseid said?

Originally posted by Delta1938
Oh I get what you're saying. The problem is you're bringing up other things to argue the EA was more powerful because Probes didn't do that sort of thing, except we do have examples like that. And I agree breaking through is more than just time travel, but....can you prove the EA could do that but Probes couldn't? I don't think you can.

The EA tanking the OE however is supported to be the durability of the Probe because of what Darkseid said. If we didn't have what Darkseid said, you'd have a point.

As for what it was meant to do, that's fine and dandy, but doesn't dispute what Darkseid said about the "drone's shell " tanking the OE. Unless you have something more specific to contradict what Darkseid said?
TBH, I dont want to think/make this too complicated.

I personally view EA is to normal probes what Superman/Supergirl/Zod/*Insert any non-generic kryptonian is to generic kryptonians/Daxamites. Even though sometimes they were stated to be as powerful as other kryptonians, But their feats suggest oterhwise

And Like I said before, EA's feats seem to be more impressive. But this just my two cents

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
TBH, I dont want to think

None of us wants that.

Thinking can lead to asking existential questions and such deep brooding never ends well.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
TBH, I dont want to think/make this too complicated.

I personally view EA is to normal probes what Superman/Supergirl/Zod/*Insert any non-generic kryptonian is to generic kryptonians/Daxamites. Even though sometimes they were stated to be as powerful as other kryptonians, But their feats suggest oterhwise

And Like I said before, EA's feats seem to be more impressive. But this just my two cents

And I understand your argument, but it doesn't work for a couple reasons. One is your analogy is flawed, as at least for Clark and Kara there are reasons to but them above, where the Probes were mass produced, not varied genetic potential like with a living race. Two is I'm not arguing the EA feats in general, just tanking the OE, because what Darkseid said supports the Probes are just that durable.

Originally posted by Delta1938
The argument this started from was the Entropy Aegis tanking the Omega Effect. Arguments about the Apokolipsian tech were made. But Darkseid's description was all it was turning Imperiex's own power against him.




Then after it takes the OE, after Superman leaves, Darkseid says the "Imperiex drone's shell repelled even my Omega Effect" He says nothing of Apokolipsian technology being part of it.

https://bit.ly/3ibIveS

If the EA tanked them because of the Probe's shell, wouldn't that be a feat of the shell, so the Probes?

The other stuff I posted was just to argue actually there are examples that the Probes may have done some of the things being used to argue against the EA taking the OE because of the Probe's durability.

Okay?

Originally posted by Delta1938
And I understand your argument, but it doesn't work for a couple reasons. One is your analogy is flawed, as at least for Clark and Kara there are reasons to but them above, where the Probes were mass produced, not varied genetic potential like with a living race. Two is I'm not arguing the EA feats in general, just tanking the OE, because what Darkseid said supports the Probes are just that durable.
Well, Then I think this will go back to whether you want to use specific evidence or implicated powers
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Regardless. Like I said before either EA no sold Omega Beams is a high showing for probes and Tanks example just a low showing for probes. We'll ignore low showings per forum rules

Or we can make arguments that based on some implications, Like the tank was amped and EA wasnt just a normal probe etc
I personally think this problem should be relatively simple or maybe I just dont want to think too hard*shrug*

Originally posted by -Pr-
Okay?

Go home Pr, you're drunk.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, Then I think

I personally think

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TheseMisguidedAmberpenshell-size_restricted.gif

You are thinking too much.

Don't let the existential crisis consume you.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://thumbs.gfycat.com/TheseMisguidedAmberpenshell-size_restricted.gif

You are thinking too much.

Don't let the existential crisis consume you.
Im still learning the power that resides in Carver
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Is it possible to learn the power that lies in Carver,Alberto,JBL,Quan?

Im so bored, I want to be perfectly intoxicated

Nobody can truly master that knowledge, my young Padawan.

And it is way too dangerous to even attempt so.

Now, if you value your life, you must...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/DistantFairKingfisher-max-1mb.gif

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Well, Then I think this will go back to whether you want to use specific evidence or implicated powers

I personally think this problem should be relatively simple or maybe I just dont want to think too hard*shrug*

I mean by definition it would be a high tanking the Omega Effect, but not an outlier. Outside Superman(who had 3 energy examples I can recall, one when all out), I believe they were only damaged(energy wise) by that amped Black Lightning. And think about it. He was amped but it's been used against the Probes like we know how powerful it was. But by definition it would be the outlier.

As mentioned they took energy attacks from an amped GL, one was no selling Doctor Light II and Geo-Force plus someone I didn't recognize simultaneously. What little was shown of Mordru/Legion team. Booster Gold plus Blue Beetle's vehicle blasted one to no avail. There are other examples, mostly not worth mentioning outside they weren't damaged by energy blasts, so taking away Superman, we have one example I'm aware of.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Go home Pr, you're drunk.

I genuinely just didn't know what you were getting at was all.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I genuinely just didn't know what you were getting at was all.

The only actual feat(unless I missed something) for the Entropy Aegis being argued was it tanking the Omega Effect, and Darkseid's statement supports it was the Probes are just that durable, not it was the Apokolips tech. But it got dragged out.

Originally posted by -Pr-
I genuinely just didn't know what you were getting at was all.
I think Delta point is the specific showing( I.E Entropy Aegis no selling Darkseid's omega beams) is a legitimate feat to probes, Which I can understand since Darkseid specifically attributed it to probes' durability

Edit: Delta ninja'ed me

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

Edit: Delta ninja'ed me

https://youtu.be/BAqabMWnAmk

(you'll pretty much have to watch the whole clip to get it, also NSFW language, and comedic gore)

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I think

Again?????

Stop!!!!

Massive action >>>> careful planning

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Again?????

Stop!!!!

Massive action >>>> careful planning
I initially wanted to edit it but Im too lazy to do so

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I initially wanted to edit it but Im too lazy to do so

Editing it further would require more thinking Stilt is getting on you about. You did the right thing.