Order these guys by speed

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HumbleServant
Based on reaction, dodging, and fighting speed

Wolverine (no adamantium so the weight is reduced)
Spiderman
Venom
Lizard
Quicksilver
Wonder Woman
Power girl
Shazam

EcstaticGrace
If I had to rank them

Wonder Woman > Shazam > Power Girl > Quicksilver >Spiderman > Venom > Lizard

EcstaticGrace
Wolverine is last

GodofNature
Fastest to slowest:

1. Wonder Woman
2. Captain Marvel
3. Powergirl
4. Quicksilver
5. Venom
6. Spider Man
7. Lizard
8. Logan

But why go these characters from high herald to low meta tier?

HumbleServant
Originally posted by GodofNature
Fastest to slowest:

1. Wonder Woman
2. Captain Marvel
3. Powergirl
4. Quicksilver
5. Venom
6. Spider Man
7. Lizard
8. Logan

But why go these characters from high herald to low meta tier? I couldn't think of characters in mid to high meta

h1a8
Originally posted by GodofNature
Fastest to slowest:

1. Wonder Woman
2. Captain Marvel
3. Powergirl
4. Quicksilver
5. Venom
6. Spider Man
7. Lizard
8. Logan

But why go these characters from high herald to low meta tier? Spider man is faster than venom.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by h1a8
Spider man is faster than venom.

No.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Sin I AM
No.

We just comparing pure speed, no Spidey Sense right?yeah I always thought Carnage was faster than Venom, who was faster than Spidey.

Sin I AM
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We just comparing pure speed, no Spidey Sense right?yeah I always thought Carnage was faster than Venom, who was faster than Spidey.

Pretty much. Same goes for strength etc...the only thing he has on them is intelligence

Philosophía
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We just comparing pure speed, no Spidey Sense right?yeah I always thought Carnage was faster than Venom, who was faster than Spidey. Hasn't Spiderman gotten upgrades since then? I dunno about speed, in particular.

Parm? Stilt?

----

Originally posted by HumbleServant
Based on reaction, dodging, and fighting speed

Wolverine (no adamantium so the weight is reduced)
Spiderman
Venom
Lizard
Quicksilver
Wonder Woman
Power girl
Shazam

Powergirl >/= Wonder Woman/Shazam
Quicksilver
Venom
Spiderman












Logan

http://gif-free.com/uploads/posts/2017-02/1487578082_jensen-ackles-restrains-smile.gif

GodofNature
Originally posted by h1a8
Spider man is faster than venom.
Do you mean with spider senses?

GodofNature

beatboks
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
If I had to rank them

Wonder Woman > Shazam > Power Girl > Quicksilver >Spiderman > Venom > Lizard


On PAPER for fighting speed this is correct based on feats. However based on a statement in JSA by PG that Billy didn't argue with PG is faster than Cap.


When it comes to reactions, I personally question whether Spidey doesn't leapfrog Quicksilver. Spider sense basically means he reacting to things that haven't even happened yet. I mean Firelord is faster than QS and Peter reacted to him.

beatboks
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We just comparing pure speed, no Spidey Sense right?yeah I always thought Carnage was faster than Venom, who was faster than Spidey.

I figured spidey sense had to be included for round 1 and 3 (reaction, battle speed)

Philosophía
Originally posted by beatboks
However based on a statement in JSA by PG that Billy didn't argue with PG is faster than Cap. I think you got that backwards, Billy didn't argue with Power Girl that she is stronger than Captain Marvel, while she didn't argue that he is faster.

https://i.ibb.co/7kXz9YP/RCO007.jpg

But one thing to keep in mind here is that for the vast majority of Post-Crisis continuity before Infinite Crisis, Power Girl was depowered and/or not even a kryptonian. Including during this time.

So it really has no bearing on the actual kryptonian Power Girl post-infinite Crisis, who we know by Wonder Woman's own admission is at least as fast as Diana:

https://i.ibb.co/D7NkKqc/RCO012.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/b159bhL/RCO013.jpg

carver9
Originally posted by GodofNature
Fastest to slowest:

1. Wonder Woman
2. Captain Marvel
3. Powergirl
4. Quicksilver
5. Venom
6. Spider Man
7. Lizard
8. Logan

But why go these characters from high herald to low meta tier?

This.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by h1a8
Spider man is faster than venom.

He *has to* rely on his speed more, but they were said to be in the same league.

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We just comparing pure speed, no Spidey Sense right?yeah I always thought Carnage was faster than Venom, who was faster than Spidey.


Advantage never applied to them, SS doesn't work on symbiotes.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by EcstaticGrace
>Spiderman > Venom > Lizard

No:

https://i.ibb.co/H4LVTMp/liz.jpg

StiltmanFTW
As for Brock...

1. All of my powers:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2b53907920f36f4ecb1549278072fcfb

2. Speed that equals Relly's own:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b3247a74c94e819a3af4ae94d6621325/tumblr_o8tbiu5mBW1rvm5qqo4_1280.jpg

Philosophía
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
No:

https://i.ibb.co/H4LVTMp/liz.jpg Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
As for Brock...

1. All of my powers:

https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-2b53907920f36f4ecb1549278072fcfb

2. Speed that equals Relly's own:

https://64.media.tumblr.com/b3247a74c94e819a3af4ae94d6621325/tumblr_o8tbiu5mBW1rvm5qqo4_1280.jpg thumb up

Perhaps, given the thread, it's also worth posting Spiderman vs a speedster, Speed Demon, with a non-PIS confrontation:

https://i.ibb.co/cL9TdZY/RCO007.jpg
https://i.ibb.co/tPqtxZM/RCO008.jpg

GodofNature

abhilegend
Skill doesn't mean she is faster though.

carver9
Diana is faster, though.

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by abhilegend
Skill doesn't mean she is faster though.

In comics, skill can magically make up for the lack of strength, speed, reflexes and even f*cking durability laughing out loud

And that's just street & martial arts skill --- supernatural skill is even worse.

Diana is often praised for her fighting skill.

DarkSaint85
Yeah I think abhi's trying to say she's using skill to make up for her relative lack of speed.

Like Parker using his SS to close the gap (and surpass others).

Philosophía
Originally posted by abhilegend
Skill doesn't mean she is faster though. Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
In comics, skill can magically make up for the lack of strength, speed, reflexes and even f*cking durability laughing out loud

And that's just street & martial arts skill --- supernatural skill is even worse.

Diana is often praised for her fighting skill. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yeah I think abhi's trying to say she's using skill to make up for her relative lack of speed.

Like Parker using his SS to close the gap (and surpass others). thumb up

It's not just what abhi is trying to say either, it's literally what's spelled out in the issue, all with flashbacks of discussions with Black Canary, in case the posters reading it have a subhuman iq.

Power Girl is at least as fast (i.e. >/=) , but Diana's skill allows her to win.

DarkSaint85
I mean, Batman's skills enable him to trade blows with WW for a brief amount of time.

No one (sane) here would say that during that period, WW is Batman's level of speed.

Philosophía
Yeah, skills and strategy go a long way towards bridging the gap in inferior stats.

Remember how WW placed as high as 7th fastest in DC based on her understanding the mechanics of running better than anyone else?

h1a8
Originally posted by Sin I AM
No. Spider-Man is slightly faster going by feats and some battles against each other. They are peers though.

h1a8
It takes reflex speed to perceive an attack, thinking speed to decide what to do IN TIME, and movement speed to initiate the action IN TIME.
Therefore WW can be said to be faster (limb and perception speed) than PG

CosmicComet
Originally posted by h1a8
It takes reflex speed to perceive an attack, thinking speed to decide what to do IN TIME, and movement speed to initiate the action IN TIME.
Therefore WW can be said to be faster (limb and perception speed) than PG

It means in raw speed PG is faster.

But WW's training has optimized her delay from stimuli intake to reaction. And she can throw a punch with better form, meaning it flies out quicker and/or with less telegraphing.

If PG was equal in skill/training to Diana, the difference would probably be like what Ali and Roy Jones did to equally experienced boxers.

StyleTime
I'd push the Lizard issue even further with a hot take: Connors is likely faster than Spiderman in raw speed. Not only does he not have the advantage of Spidersense, but his last transformation seemed to indicate a speed increase.

https://postimg.cc/NK85TWd8

Granted, it's difficult to tell if his "Always knew I was faster" comment was about humanity in general, Spiderman, or if he's referencing both. Spiderman does confirm that he wouldn't be able to catch Lizard if Lizard tried to leave though. Running away isn't completely comparable to speed in combat, but it does seem like another bit of evidence I suppose.

https://postimg.cc/mcbhS8nv

And it's notable that Peter couldn't land hits unless Lizard was hallucinating, or attacking someone else. Spiderman trying to land the serum needle is probably the best visual example of what I mean.

https://postimg.cc/7CmhtS8f
https://postimg.cc/JD0nftMK

As for why we haven't seen much else, Lizard has spent the last decade with Connors being in control, turning him into a pacifist. He even had a chip implanted that stops him from harming people, and was willingly imprisoned too. He mauled the Last Son of Kraven (chip was removed), but was mostly just doing science stuff. Currently, The Lizard has been forceably separated from Connors, so I guess we'll see what direction they go in. So far, it's just been Lizard dodging Stegron in the background.

Smurph
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It means in raw speed PG is faster.

But WW's training has optimized her delay from stimuli intake to reaction. And she can throw a punch with better form, meaning it flies out quicker and/or with less telegraphing.

If PG was equal in skill/training to Diana, the difference would probably be like what Ali and Roy Jones did to equally experienced boxers. But since OP is asking for reaction, dodging and fighting, then the speed edges that WW gets from training should factor into her rank on the list.

cdtm
Originally posted by Smurph
But since OP is asking for reaction, dodging and fighting, then the speed edges that WW gets from training should factor into her rank on the list.

Unless you're Val Armorr, training could only make up so much difference, you'd think.


Zoom is so fast Wonder Woman could practice for a thousand years and should never touch him.

Smurph

cdtm

Smurph

cdtm

StiltmanFTW
I never argued MURDOCK (learn to spell it, you inbred imbecile) can beat up Namor.

Stop making shit up. And do kill yourself.

Smurph

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Smurph
But since OP is asking for reaction, dodging and fighting, then the speed edges that WW gets from training should factor into her rank on the list.
Whilst I would say that it shouldn't factor in (or at least, should be taken into account with 'points' deducted. Caveats etc).

Otherwise, precogs etc should also be taken into account, and then it gets muddied.

Skill, however, is this magical ability that makes up for gaps because writers want streets to not become pink mists as soon as they face a meta. I mean, we have Batman trading blows with Zoom, lol - a guy who was casually batting a bloodlusted Wally away with one hand.

Smurph

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I never argued MURDOCK (learn to spell it, you inbred imbecile) can beat up Namor.

Stop making shit up. And do kill yourself.



Originally posted by lawest9
As IMMORTAL Herc he got KO'd by Daredevils Billy club while a member of the Champions so I'm sure he'd get ko'd by Danny's Iron fist when BOTH shot was to the back of his head.



Close enough.

StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.

2. It wasn't his billy club, it was Cap's shield which got redirected and thrown back at Herc.

3. Herc still wasn't KO'd:

https://tinyurl.com/362cjhrp

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.

2. It wasn't his billy club, it was Cap's shield which got redirected and thrown back at Herc.

3. Herc still wasn't KO'd:

https://tinyurl.com/362cjhrp


You all sound the same to me.


Proof enough I'm not the only one who can't get his facts straight, never see you go hard affer him. stick out tongue

Smurph
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.
laughing out loud

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by cdtm
never see you go hard affer him. stick out tongue

Are you serious?

I go so ****ing hard after him, he literally reports me for sexual harassment.

qwertyuiop1998
Im actually surprised Stilt hasnt put cdtm on ignore, considering the annoyance he caused

StiltmanFTW
I have, actually. A good few times. But the posts are always one click away and cdtm posts f*cking everywhere.

So, our relationship is like this:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/a8/68/3aa86868b40faf961541c3d8e6dac375.gif

I catch his bait and f*ck him up.

ShadowFyre
Originally posted by Sin I AM
No.

Shes right,, Lizard and venom are both faster in pure speed and bullrushes, Parker just has spider sense.

Parker has stated this multiple times, and these two have always had decent showings of reacting and outreacting Spiderman.

Venom saving the child in the first Carnage Ark comes to mind some say Parker just missed what is because he was too slow

StiltmanFTW
Gravity - who was a hardcore Spider-Man fanboy - has stated that Gargan (yes, even Gargan... who, let's face it, was one of the lamest Venoms ever) was comparable to Parker in terms of speed.

StiltmanFTW
And Gargan's inferiority was pretty much confirmed in that Venom Annual a while back, if memory serves.

When Mac brags in the bar about being Venom once, nobody is impressed, and he ends up wetting his pants in front of the real deal.

Philosophía
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Whilst I would say that it shouldn't factor in (or at least, should be taken into account with 'points' deducted. Caveats etc).

Otherwise, precogs etc should also be taken into account, and then it gets muddied.

Skill, however, is this magical ability that makes up for gaps because writers want streets to not become pink mists as soon as they face a meta. I mean, we have Batman trading blows with Zoom, lol - a guy who was casually batting a bloodlusted Wally away with one hand.
You can consider skill as essentially a precog ability, too. Telegraphing attacks is a real thing even in the PG fight. So although, as Wonder Woman says, Power Girl is faster than her, she telegraphs her attacks and are easily dodgeable and more effectively countered. So while Power Girl does move/react faster in the general sense, in terms of fighting she is easily anticipated by Wonder Woman and her counter-attack is more effective given the better offensive knowledge.

In that sense, it's actually the perfect fight that shows the difference between speed and skill, and how ones superior skill can counter an >/= speed opponent.

StiltmanFTW
Then you have the ridiculous "rolling with the blows" ability (which somehow so drastically reduces effectiveness of your opponent's hits, you can survive anything, even superhuman bricks whose fists are the size of a truck)... and - of course - targeting vital areas and pressure points.

PG/WW is quite rare, as usually heralds don't bother utilizing skill to any degree - as Canary says.

h1a8
Originally posted by CosmicComet
It means in raw speed PG is faster.

But WW's training has optimized her delay from stimuli intake to reaction. And she can throw a punch with better form, meaning it flies out quicker and/or with less telegraphing.

If PG was equal in skill/training to Diana, the difference would probably be like what Ali and Roy Jones did to equally experienced boxers. Wrong. It takes perception to perceive a punch in time and movement speed to deal with it in time. WW is faster in perceptions and limb speed. She cam hit PG but PG has trouble hitting her.
PG might be faster in travel speed.

There is no such thing as raw speed. There are many different types of speed as well as strength (think of the strongman competition).

h1a8
Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Shes right,, Lizard and venom are both faster in pure speed and bullrushes, Parker just has spider sense.

Parker has stated this multiple times, and these two have always had decent showings of reacting and outreacting Spiderman.

Venom saving the child in the first Carnage Ark comes to mind some say Parker just missed what is because he was too slow

Different writers Different opinions. By feats Spider-Man is faster.
By direct confrontation, spidey has reacted to venom attacks more than the other way around.

Plot also dictates speed.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
1. That's lawest, not me.

2. It wasn't his billy club, it was Cap's shield which got redirected and thrown back at Herc.

3. Herc still wasn't KO'd:

https://tinyurl.com/362cjhrp

laughing out loud so he's even wrong about being wrong now.

CosmicComet
Originally posted by h1a8
Wrong. It takes perception to perceive a punch in time and movement speed to deal with it in time. WW is faster in perceptions and limb speed. She cam hit PG but PG has trouble hitting her.
PG might be faster in travel speed.

There is no such thing as raw speed. There are many different types of speed as well as strength (think of the strongman competition).

Wrong. I don't understand how you could misunderstand such a simple concept.

Perception speed is innate, and can be honed by training.

The fact that PG can land hits despite several centuries of training disadvantage means that her pure physical stats are noticeably higher than WW, but simply unrefined to the point that WW's quickness (economy of movement thru skill and muscle memory) overtakes it.

A jab is quicker than an overhand punch. An overhand punch however is far *faster* in movement rate than a jab. Get the difference?

If training was equal, the reflex difference would be at least as great as the difference between a very fast boxer (Roy Jones Jr) vs a somewhat above average speed boxer (James Toney).

If RJJ was only an amateur level fighter, he would have been smoked by Toney despite being the far better athlete.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
I have, actually. A good few times. But the posts are always one click away and cdtm posts f*cking everywhere.

So, our relationship is like this:

https://i.pinimg.com/originals/3a/a8/68/3aa86868b40faf961541c3d8e6dac375.gif

I catch his bait and f*ck him up.


laughing out loud

In fairness you totally glossed over Samuel Silke. Even in my ignorance of Fisk laughing off stabs, gun shots, and billy clubs, I knew something was off about a garden variety goombah getting the drop on Fisk and sending him to the hospital.


Brian Michael Bendis doing what he does best.

h1a8
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Wrong. I don't understand how you could misunderstand such a simple concept.

Perception speed is innate, and can be honed by training.

The fact that PG can land hits despite several centuries of training disadvantage means that her pure physical stats are noticeably higher than WW, but simply unrefined to the point that WW's quickness (economy of movement thru skill and muscle memory) overtakes it.

A jab is quicker than an overhand punch. An overhand punch however is far *faster* in movement rate than a jab. Get the difference?

If training was equal, the reflex difference would be at least as great as the difference between a very fast boxer (Roy Jones Jr) vs a somewhat above average speed boxer (James Toney).

If RJJ was only an amateur level fighter, he would have been smoked by Toney despite being the far better athlete.

Lol it doesn't matter where WW gets her speed from since the fact is that she is faster than PG in certan categories.

You are arguing since WW obtain speed through practice doesn't count as her being faster. That's a stupid argument.

DarkSaint85
It's not stupid, lol. It's literally spelled out in comics, with Superman and WW especially (see Batman's statement).

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's not stupid, lol. It's literally spelled out in comics, with Superman and WW especially (see Batman's statement).

The Usain Bolt vs Bruce Lee argument?


The fatal flaw in Batman's logic, is they are both "human".


Apply that same logic between a cheetah and a ray of light.

qwertyuiop1998
That is not DS point though. Raw speed and trained speed are two different things in comics

P.S. I know cdtm you probably just posting random statements for attention, but Im so bored right now that I actually replying your posts

cdtm
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
That is not DS point though. Raw speed and trained speed are two different things in comics

P.S. I know cdtm you probably just posting random statements for attention, but Im so bored right now that I actually replying your posts

Nah. Speed is speed.

When you play the knife between the fingers game, you can either do it fast or do it slow. Doesn't matter whether you train for it or have natural talent.


And even in comics, there physical limitations. If Batman trained for 1000 years, he shouldn't be able to become as fast as Spider-Man, let alone a flash.

You can get around that by using alien martial arts, or "chi", but if a MASSIVE gap existed between Superman and Wonder Woman's overall speed, trained skill shouldn't cover that gap.

StiltmanFTW
Pure speed is pure speed.

Anticipating movements and reacting accordingly is a whole different thing.

If even a herald fight can follow the rules, then sure as hell cdtm****meintheass has nothing to say.

cdtm
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pure speed is pure speed.

Anticipating movements and reacting accordingly is a whole different thing.

If even a herald fight can follow the rules, then sure as hell cdtm****meintheass has nothing to say.


Nope. The Identity Crisis smackdown of Slade on Wally is bullshit. Slade is a literal statue at Flash speeds.


No statue is taking you by surprise even with anticipation.

StiltmanFTW
Flash is a moron who gets literally bitten by talking gorillas in his own comic.

Shut up, Todd.

Philosophía
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pure speed is pure speed.

Anticipating movements and reacting accordingly is a whole different thing. This.

There's some conflating going on between speed in general and hand to hand skill. But, as you said, speed is speed. They're complementary in terms of h2h but wholly different. If you can see and move faster than your opponent, then you are superior in speed to your opponent -- but he can use his particular skill to anticipate your movements and efficiently dodge and counter. Applied knowledge, which is predictive defense and efficient offense, is not the same as being superior in speed.

There's of course moments where the gap is so big, the move predictions don't matter because the opponent can't react to the attacks, and this is a good opportunity to repost this fight:

https://i.ibb.co/rMfqjf5/wWtr5yT.png
https://i.ibb.co/HHt9QKM/pQQtwPh.png
https://i.ibb.co/2hYXfNd/1jhzbU4.png

It just so happens that Power Girl was close enough to Wonder Woman in speed at least as fast, meaning >/= i.e. close to equal] that Diana's skill offset the speed difference.

DarkSaint85
I mean we have abhi's most loved scan:

https://i.imgur.com/3g1SL9E

Which has WW using her skill as a form of precog. Literally not speed

If I know sunlight is coming towards me (and yes, I know because I know it takes 8+minutes for light to travel to me) I can close my eyelids and block out a specific photon from reaching my eyes.

Doesn't mean I'm FTL

cdtm

Smurph

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It's not stupid, lol. It's literally spelled out in comics, with Superman and WW especially (see Batman's statement).

It is stupid. Wtf are you talking about. If WW is faster at some task then it doesn't matter where she got the speed from.
This thread is all about who's faster.

WW is not faster than PG in some things (like travel speed). But she is faster in perceptions and arm movement speed.

h1a8
Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Pure speed is pure speed.

Anticipating movements and reacting accordingly is a whole different thing.

If even a herald fight can follow the rules, then sure as hell cdtm****meintheass has nothing to say.

Perception speed is a speed
Arm movement speed is a speed
Flight speed is a speed
Hopefully get the point

Ww got PG beat in arm movement speed and perception speed
PG got WW beat in flight speed.

Booya_69
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean we have abhi's most loved scan:

https://i.imgur.com/3g1SL9E

Which has WW using her skill as a form of precog. Literally not speed

If I know sunlight is coming towards me (and yes, I know because I know it takes 8+minutes for light to travel to me) I can close my eyelids and block out a specific photon from reaching my eyes.

Doesn't mean I'm FTL

You would still need a great amount of speed to successfully pull the feat tho. If look at prime Roy Jones Jr, he would easily bob and weave out of the way of his opponents punches and set up a counter. Later in his career his speed declines and he gets tagged more often. Even suffering brutal kos. Same case with Anderson silva, Lyoto machida and many others. With all their experience and skill, some were getting caught with basic combos

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
It is stupid. Wtf are you talking about. If WW is faster at some task then it doesn't matter where she got the speed from.
This thread is all about who's faster.

WW is not faster than PG in some things (like travel speed). But she is faster in perceptions and arm movement speed.

Because skill is used as a form of precog in comics. Deathstroke 'knows' where Flash will run to, based on his skill, so can tag him. Doesn't mean DS is faster or as fast as Flash. Wolverine knows where Speed Demon will be, so can tag him. Batman knows where etc etc.

This is common comic knowledge.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Booya_69
You would still need a great amount of speed to successfully pull the feat tho. If look at prime Roy Jones Jr, he would easily bob and weave out of the way of his opponents punches and set up a counter. Later in his career his speed declines and he gets tagged more often. Even suffering brutal kos. Same case with Anderson silva, Lyoto machida and many others. With all their experience and skill, some were getting caught with basic combos

So I am FTL? I know exactly when a specific photon (let's call it photon A) will hit my eye - so I close my eyelids to block it. Am I as fast as or faster than a photon?

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because skill is used as a form of precog in comics. Deathstroke 'knows' where Flash will run to, based on his skill, so can tag him. Doesn't mean DS is faster or as fast as Flash. Wolverine knows where Speed Demon will be, so can tag him. Batman knows where etc etc.

This is common comic knowledge. No it isn't. WW has to see the attack unfolding through perception speed. She has no precog. She responds AFTER the attack initiates, not before.

WW still has to move her limbs in time and AFTER the attack initiates. That's limb speed.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So I am FTL? I know exactly when a specific photon (let's call it photon A) will hit my eye - so I close my eyelids to block it. Am I as fast as or faster than a photon? No, but your perception speed is faster than PG

Also, being able to easily duck, weave and block someone's attack means that you are at least a peer to them in limb movement speed (since you can swing far faster than you block).

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean we have abhi's most loved scan:

https://i.imgur.com/3g1SL9E

Which has WW using her skill as a form of precog. Literally not speed

If I know sunlight is coming towards me (and yes, I know because I know it takes 8+minutes for light to travel to me) I can close my eyelids and block out a specific photon from reaching my eyes.

Doesn't mean I'm FTL


So doing what any garden variety street can do. laughing out loud


If Abhi pimps that as impressive, I'd counter argue this wouldn't work if a real speedster had the gun.


Basically, lets say Quicksilver is firing at Parker... He fires off the gun, Peter precogs and dodges, and Pietro fires off another five shots that track faster then Peter can move his body, while he's mid dodging the first shot.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
No it isn't. WW has to see the attack unfolding through perception speed. She has no precog. She responds AFTER the attack initiates, not before.

WW still has to move her limbs in time and AFTER the attack initiates. That's limb speed.

That's the thing you are not understanding.

She does it BEFORE the attack initiates. She knows where the shooter is going to aim for, and has her gauntlets there accordingly. The scan spells this out.

This is skill. Same way Deathstroke knows what Flash would do - he has experience and skill in dealing with Wally. He's not faster than Wally, he just knows how Wally thinks.

In abhi's scan, WW isn't faster than the shooter, she just knows how they think.

With PG, she's not faster, she just knows how a fighter/brawler would fight, and can 'precog' it. Like a champion chess master. There are only so many ways a two armed two legged humanoid body can move, so WWs skill and fighting experience means she can effectively predict and counter what their next move would be.

Originally posted by h1a8
No, but your perception speed is faster than PG

Also, being able to easily duck, weave and block someone's attack means that you are at least a peer to them in limb movement speed (since you can swing far faster than you block).
So I am faster than a Kryptonian. Thanks.

StyleTime
Edit

cdtm
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's the thing you are not understanding.

She does it BEFORE the attack initiates. She knows where the shooter is going to aim for, and has her gauntlets there accordingly. The scan spells this out.

This is skill. Same way Deathstroke knows what Flash would do - he has experience and skill in dealing with Wally. He's not faster than Wally, he just knows how Wally thinks.

In abhi's scan, WW isn't faster than the shooter, she just knows how they think.

With PG, she's not faster, she just knows how a fighter/brawler would fight, and can 'precog' it. Like a champion chess master. There are only so many ways a two armed two legged humanoid body can move, so WWs skill and fighting experience means she can effectively predict and counter what their next move would be.


So I am faster than a Kryptonian. Thanks.

Your logic is spot on, and likely how the writer saw it.


The problem has always been with Wally's perception not noticing the sword. From his view, Slade would be sitting there with the sword behind him as he ran into it

I mean, otherwise he'd be tripping over cars and unexpected pedestrians

Booya_69
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I know exactly when a specific bullet(let's call it bullet A) will hit my eye - so I close my eyelids to block it. Am I as fast as or faster than a speeding bullet?

No.
But if you can block multiple bullets from close range and control the direction of the ricochet, like wondie has recently, then you most likely are.

Diana is standing squared, flat footed, no gaurd and is easily out manuavering pg.

https://youtu.be/jXqusSIDsvA

^Is this a precog feat or a speed feat?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Booya_69
No.
But if you can block multiple bullets from close range and control the direction of the ricochet, like wondie has recently, then you most likely are.

Diana is standing squared, flat footed, no gaurd and is easily out manuavering pg.

https://youtu.be/jXqusSIDsvA

^Is this a precog feat or a speed feat?

Well he has no precog,but it's both a skill and speed feat. To act like Silva can do what he does with no training and endless work in the gym is....a strange stance to take. Sure, he has speed - but he also puts work in sparring etc, until he pretty much knows what the other person can do. Likely watches videos of his opponents' fights so as to get a feel of their style.

And then after all that, as I said there are only so many ways the human body can move in a fight. Especially when you're then limited by the rules of the sport (no eye gouging etc), which further cuts down the possible moves your opponent can make.

carver9
https://m.imgur.com/G2uIeeS

Also, Spiderman precog isn't light speed.

Booya_69
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well he has no precog,but it's both a skill and speed feat. To act like Silva can do what he does with no training and endless work in the gym is....a strange stance to take. Sure, he has speed - but he also puts work in sparring etc, until he pretty much knows what the other person can do. Likely watches videos of his opponents' fights so as to get a feel of their style.



Yeah, but that applies to both fighters, not just silva. Yes, skill plays a roll, but speed is the key factor if you're going to "matrix" someone imo.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's the thing you are not understanding.

She does it BEFORE the attack initiates. She knows where the shooter is going to aim for, and has her gauntlets there accordingly. The scan spells this out.

This is skill. Same way Deathstroke knows what Flash would do - he has experience and skill in dealing with Wally. He's not faster than Wally, he just knows how Wally thinks.

In abhi's scan, WW isn't faster than the shooter, she just knows how they think.

With PG, she's not faster, she just knows how a fighter/brawler would fight, and can 'precog' it. Like a champion chess master. There are only so many ways a two armed two legged humanoid body can move, so WWs skill and fighting experience means she can effectively predict and counter what their next move would be.


So I am faster than a Kryptonian. Thanks.

What are you talking about? I'm referring to h2h fighting where she ducks dodges Superman's and PG's attacks or lassos Zoom while he is moving at light speed (or near).

You are referring to her blocking bullets. One writer's opinion doesn't change what other writer's think. WW has blocked bullets and energy blasts WITHOUT knowing where the shooter is exactly aiming at.

If Darkseid looks at her with his eyes glowing (no pupil to know exactly where he is aiming at) and she holds her bracelet up for defense (before DS fires) then do you think DS would still shoot at her bracelets on purpose? WW doesn't know the exact moment DS is going to fire his OB. It can be in 2 seconds, 5 seconds, or even 10 seconds. She isn't going to just stand there with her bracelets up hoping for the best. WW has no move her bracelets AFTER the beam enters the air, otherwise DS would aim for something else instead of her bracelets.

WW has blocked bullets and beams blindfolded. She did not rely on sight in order to see where the shooter was aiming. She can sense the bullet in the air and respond to it.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85



So I am faster than a Kryptonian. Thanks.

Well since they don't exist then I guess you are. But otherwise, I don't get how you come to that conclusion.

Again, if you can EASILY block or dodge someone's attacks then you are automatically at least a peer to them in arm movement speed since you can throw a punch far faster (velocity wise) than you can block.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Booya_69
Yeah, but that applies to both fighters, not just silva. Yes, skill plays a roll, but speed is the key factor if you're going to "matrix" someone imo.
Never said it wasn't. But, as I have been saying all this time, skill plays a part and it's not pure speed.Originally posted by h1a8
Well since they don't exist then I guess you are. But otherwise, I don't get how you come to that conclusion.

Again, if you can EASILY block or dodge someone's attacks then you are automatically at least a peer to them in arm movement speed since you can throw a punch far faster (velocity wise) than you can block.

From your post saying yes, when I asked if I was. I don't have to actually see the photon being fired off the surface of the sun, nor do I need to track it. I could be blindfolded, then take it off - as long as I close my eyes 8.5 minutes from now (or however long it takes for light to reach earth) I know I wil block that photon.

Without needing to be lightspeed.

Originally posted by h1a8
What are you talking about? I'm referring to h2h fighting where she ducks dodges Superman's and PG's attacks or lassos Zoom while he is moving at light speed (or near).

You are referring to her blocking bullets. One writer's opinion doesn't change what other writer's think. WW has blocked bullets and energy blasts WITHOUT knowing where the shooter is exactly aiming at.

If Darkseid looks at her with his eyes glowing (no pupil to know exactly where he is aiming at) and she holds her bracelet up for defense (before DS fires) then do you think DS would still shoot at her bracelets on purpose? WW doesn't know the exact moment DS is going to fire his OB. It can be in 2 seconds, 5 seconds, or even 10 seconds. She isn't going to just stand there with her bracelets up hoping for the best. WW has no move her bracelets AFTER the beam enters the air, otherwise DS would aim for something else instead of her bracelets.

WW has blocked bullets and beams blindfolded. She did not rely on sight in order to see where the shooter was aiming. She can sense the bullet in the air and respond to it.

She still does it with skill, even with DS and when blindfolded. With seeing it, she knows where the bullets are going/where DS will target, based on her fighting experience and skill.

Same way Batman does it

h1a8
Originally posted by cdtm
So doing what any garden variety street can do. laughing out loud


If Abhi pimps that as impressive, I'd counter argue this wouldn't work if a real speedster had the gun.


Basically, lets say Quicksilver is firing at Parker... He fires off the gun, Peter precogs and dodges, and Pietro fires off another five shots that track faster then Peter can move his body, while he's mid dodging the first shot. A laser blast yes but not bullets as Parker can move his body faster than bullets.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said it wasn't. But, as I have been saying all this time, skill plays a part and it's not pure speed.

From your post saying yes, when I asked if I was. I don't have to actually see the photon being fired off the surface of the sun, nor do I need to track it. I could be blindfolded, then take it off - as long as I close my eyes 8.5 minutes from now (or however long it takes for light to reach earth) I know I wil block that photon.

Without needing to be lightspeed.



She still does it with skill, even with DS and when blindfolded. With seeing it, she knows where the bullets are going/where DS will target, based on her fighting experience and skill.

Same way Batman does it

I just proved that she didn't know where DS would target.
All you did was restate the faulty argument.

I'll repeat.
DS has no pupils, just glowing eyes. She doesn't know where and exactly when his OB will fire. If she guesses and puts her bracelets up 2 seconds before he fires then he is going to see this and aim where the bracelets aren't.

Lol WW doesn't close her eyes right after the attack is initiated. She has fought blind on multiple occasions. Therefore she can't see where the attacker is aiming. She has to respond AFTER the attack enters the air. WW doesn't have precog. This is a fact.

The beast from kung-fu hustle uses skill to catch a bullet. His hand still moved faster than a bullet though. So skill as the reason someone is fast doesn't disqualify the fact that they are fast.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
I just proved that she didn't know where DS would target.
All you did was restate the faulty argument.

I'll repeat.
DS has no pupils, just glowing eyes. She doesn't know where and exactly when his OB will fire. If she guesses and puts her bracelets up 2 seconds before he fires then he is going to see this and aim where the bracelets aren't.

Lol WW doesn't close her eyes right after the attack is initiated. She has fought blind on multiple occasions. Therefore she can't see where the attacker is aiming. She has to respond AFTER the attack enters the air. WW doesn't have precog. This is a fact.

The beast from kung-fu hustle uses skill to catch a bullet. His hand still moved faster than a bullet though. So skill as the reason someone is fast doesn't disqualify the fact that they are fast.

Prove she didn't know where he was going to fire, though. All you did is make unsupported statements.

Unless you can prove she didn't know where he was going to target.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Prove she didn't know where he was going to fire, though. All you did is make unsupported statements.

Unless you can prove she didn't know where he was going to target.

She didn't know because it is a special attribute (to know where DS is aiming at) and the comic doesn't give any evidence towards her having that special attribute.

DarkSaint85
Yes, indeed, a special attribute.

Her skill.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yes, indeed, a special attribute.

Her skill. I have skill but don't have that attribute

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
I have skill but don't have that attribute

You don't have WWs level of skill. I mean, I have speed but I'm not Flash. What a nonsense argument, lol.

I have some degree of strength but I can't lift a ship like Superman.

Booya_69
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Never said it wasn't. But, as I have been saying all this time, skill plays a part and it's not pure speed.

From your post saying yes, when I asked if I was. I don't have to actually see the photon being fired off the surface of the sun, nor do I need to track it. I could be blindfolded, then take it off - as long as I close my eyes 8.5 minutes from now (or however long it takes for light to reach earth) I know I wil block that photon.

Without needing to be lightspeed.



She still does it with skill, even with DS and when blindfolded. With seeing it, she knows where the bullets are going/where DS will target, based on her fighting experience and skill.

Same way Batman does it

But again you still need the limb speed to pull off the feat. WW blocks bullets from multiple gunmen all shooting simultaneously all the time. you're saying that in between each bullet that gets blocked, her limbs and perception are moving slower than the in-coming bullets and skill is compensating the rest? It's just not feasible.

She's even blocked a bullet coming from behind her aimed for the person next to her and they didn't even know they were being fired at.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by Booya_69
But again you still need the limb speed to pull off the feat. WW blocks bullets from multiple gunmen all shooting simultaneously all the time. you're saying that in between each bullet that gets blocked, her limbs and perception are moving slower than the in-coming bullets and skill is compensating the rest? It's just not feasible.

She's even blocked a bullet coming from behind her aimed for the person next to her and they didn't even know they were being fired at.

Same way a chess master can play 25 simultaneous games of chess, sometimes blindfolded.

Not saying there's no speed and it's pure skill, btw. But neither am I saying it's pure speed and no skill.

h1a8
double post

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You don't have WWs level of skill. I mean, I have speed but I'm not Flash. What a nonsense argument, lol.

I have some degree of strength but I can't lift a ship like Superman.

You don't get it. The argument is having skill doesn't give you that special attribute.
You have to prove that WW knew when and where DS was aiming since he had no pupils to focus on (and WW doesn't know the exact moment the beams are coming out).


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Same way a chess master can play 25 simultaneous games of chess, sometimes blindfolded.

Not saying there's no speed and it's pure skill, btw. But neither am I saying it's pure speed and no skill.

No one is quantifying the speed in which WW is moving her limbs. Therefore you are arguing against nothing. We all agree that WW has superhuman speed. She can move her arms very fast.

And I would argue that WW does this without ANY skill. Why?
Because she never trained against bullets (she would have got shot on her first attempt) or laser blasts. She just naturally can block them (same as Superman).

DarkSaint85
In comics, having skill gives you that special attribute. Like Batman can rest to HV, despite having human level speed.

cdtm
I like to think Ivy was seriously dulling Superman reflexes and speed there.


Maybe even that he was resisting just enough to miss on purpose. He is Superman after all.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
In comics, having skill gives you that special attribute. Like Batman can rest to HV, despite having human level speed. No it doesn't. Now you are just talking crazy.

You are basically arguing in circles. In proving that WW has that ability you argue that having fighting skill gives her that ability. I countered with a counter example (showed someone with fighting skill that doesn't have that ability). Then you stated it has to be WW level skill. That's begging the question. This doesn't prove that WW has the ability to know where DS is aiming with his beam before he fires nor the exact moment it will fire.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
No it doesn't. Now you are just talking crazy.

You are basically arguing in circles. In proving that WW has that ability you argue that having fighting skill gives her that ability. I countered with a counter example (showed someone with fighting skill that doesn't have that ability). Then you stated it has to be WW level skill. That's begging the question. This doesn't prove that WW has the ability to know where DS is aiming with his beam before he fires nor the exact moment it will fire.

That's how comics are. Batman and Invisible woman etc can react to laser attacks being fired at them from behind, without knowing when or where they're being aimed at. This is due to that magical ability known as skill.

Smurph

h1a8

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's how comics are. Batman and Invisible woman etc can react to laser attacks being fired at them from behind, without knowing when or where they're being aimed at. This is due to that magical ability known as skill.

No where in comics does it show a character knowing exactly where DS is aiming or the precise moment he will fire.

Batman and IW can not react to lasers being shot at them AFTER the fire. If they are in the way of the beam when it enters the air then they will get hit.

And that scenario still doesn't prove WW knows where DS is aiming and when he will fire. Therefore she perceives the beam and reacts accordingly.

Smurph

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
No where in comics does it show a character knowing exactly where DS is aiming or the precise moment he will fire.

Batman and IW can not react to lasers being shot at them AFTER the fire. If they are in the way of the beam when it enters the air then they will get hit.

And that scenario still doesn't prove WW knows where DS is aiming and when he will fire. Therefore she perceives the beam and reacts accordingly.

Yet, they do.

cdtm
To be fair, the beams do have a tendency to do that randomish zigzag thing for no reason. Even when the target is right in front of him, it can go way off to the sides like a drunken laser beam.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yet, they do. If I say they can't that means they haven't. Prove that they reacted lasers shot from behind them AFTER they were fired.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
If I say they can't that means they haven't. Prove that they reacted lasers shot from behind them AFTER they were fired.

Your word means absolutely nothing, considering I have had to educate you so many times (remember our Ozymandias 'debate'?)

Moving goalposts?

Your initial post said:



smile

Now you're adding that he has to react to it from behind? Tsk tsk. How sad. How.....disappointing.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Your word means absolutely nothing, considering I have had to educate you so many times (remember our Ozymandias 'debate'?)

Moving goalposts?

Your initial post said:



smile

Now you're adding that he has to react to it from behind? Tsk tsk. How sad. How.....disappointing. That's what you stated. "From behind". Do you need me to quote you?

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
That's what you stated. "From behind". Do you need me to quote you?

smile

https://i.imgur.com/OrTxmCk.jpeg

Although, surely the intent (as you love to say) is what matters? What does it matter if they were in front or behind, as long as they react|AFTER the firing??

DarkSaint85
Invisible Woman (and not just with one blast, either!)

https://i.postimg.cc/Gmxjz6FL/p14-17-copy.jpg

And she doesnt' just block them, she even bubbles them up - which necessitates doing so AFTER they're fired (note how there are blasts behind her). All done as she's concentrating on fl;ying and talking.

DarkSaint85
And:

https://i.postimg.cc/MTKVsTWt/O9CXMIu.jpg

Note she has to not only block, but each shield has a different frequency. Note too, some firing behind her smile

DarkSaint85
I mean, we are just going down a pedantic route now (in front of vs behind).

Batman clearly moves AFTER the HV has fired here:

https://i.postimg.cc/MZ3C65zg/RCO012-1485337935.jpg.

Now, PIS? Sure. But writers don't have 'PIS' - in fact, they'd be offended we use that term ,lol. Batman has no superspeed, but he does have insane skills.

Skills which enable him to react to HV AFTER it was fired. Comics have shown this.

So back to the point in hand. In comics, writers use 'skill' as a catch-all magical BS, which enables a character to cross gaps in physical stats, including speed. Thus, in a discussion about speed, we need to take that into account, and 'deduct points', as it were.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Invisible Woman (and not just with one blast, either!)

https://i.postimg.cc/Gmxjz6FL/p14-17-copy.jpg

And she doesnt' just block them, she even bubbles them up - which necessitates doing so AFTER they're fired (note how there are blasts behind her). All done as she's concentrating on fl;ying and talking. The speed of those blasts are unknown. I would guess less than bullet speed going by usual animated or movie visuals.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
smile

https://i.imgur.com/OrTxmCk.jpeg

Although, surely the intent (as you love to say) is what matters? What does it matter if they were in front or behind, as long as they react|AFTER the firing??

That scan is inconclusive. Eyes could have been glowing prior and Batman moved out the way before the fire. The fact that Hello was said supports that.

DarkSaint85
Talking is a free action.

And frankly, we said laser blasts, no? Which I showed. You wanting to now move the goalposts (as I knew you would) is just disingenuous of you.

h1a8
One more thing (please read my rebuttal on the prior page to your scans), if you had a truly legitimate scan of Batman actually moving 1/100 or more the distance that an object or beam (that moves at the speed of light) moves in the same time frame then we can either conclude

1) The beam or object was moving slower than the speed of light
Or
2) Batman moved 1/100 or more of the speed of light and therefore he has superhuman level speed (regardless if it was obtained from skill)
Or
3) PIS and it doesn't count towards anything.

Smurph
h1 arguing with himself

Originally posted by h1a8


That scan is inconclusive. Eyes could have been glowing prior and Batman moved out the way before the fire. The fact that Hello was said supports that.

Originally posted by h1a8

If Darkseid looks at her with his eyes glowing (no pupil to know exactly where he is aiming at) and she holds her bracelet up for defense (before DS fires) then do you think DS would still shoot at her bracelets on purpose? WW doesn't know the exact moment DS is going to fire his OB. It can be in 2 seconds, 5 seconds, or even 10 seconds. She isn't going to just stand there with her bracelets up hoping for the best. WW has no move her bracelets AFTER the beam enters the air, otherwise DS would aim for something else instead of her bracelets.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
One more thing (please read my rebuttal on the prior page to your scans), if you had a truly legitimate scan of Batman actually moving 1/100 or more the distance that an object or beam (that moves at the speed of light) moves in the same time frame then we can either conclude

1) The beam or object was moving slower than the speed of light
Or
2) Batman moved 1/100 or more of the speed of light and therefore he has superhuman level speed (regardless if it was obtained from skill)
Or
3) PIS and it doesn't count towards anything.

Guess you didn't actually read my posts. I have already addressed them.

So thanks for playing, and you can continue arguing with yourself lol.

Originally posted by Smurph
h1 arguing with himself

Pretty much. He just possesses this arrogance that he is right, when everytime we cross paths I humiliate him.

I mean, he even acknowledges that PIS shouldn't exist:

Originally posted by h1a8
If I was in a comic book then what I said would still be true. Therefore, me being in a comic doesn't disprove what I said.

Yet, when Batman (a human) and IW (a human) possess such attributes, he ignores it, and tries to handwave it away as PIS, which I address.

Smurph
lol yes.

the same scenario (eyes glowing / laser fired / laser misses) both proves that Batman dodges with skill and no super speed and that Wonder Woman blocks attacks using super speed and no skill.

h1a8
Originally posted by Smurph
lol yes.

the same scenario (eyes glowing / laser fired / laser misses) both proves that Batman dodges with skill and no super speed and that Wonder Woman blocks attacks using super speed and no skill.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand my point.
WW did not know where DS was aiming (he has no pupils) to be able to block head on and delect the blast at exactly the right angle.
WW didn't know exactly when DS would fire. If she upped her bracelets a second to early then DS aims elsewhere and a second too late then she will be struck. Therefore WW used perception and speed to block.

Batman got a warning. Hello was said while eye's were glowing. Batman got out of the way. It's inconclusive.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Guess you didn't actually read my posts. I have already addressed them.

So thanks for playing, and you can continue arguing with yourself lol.



Pretty much. He just possesses this arrogance that he is right, when everytime we cross paths I humiliate him.

I mean, he even acknowledges that PIS shouldn't exist:



Yet, when Batman (a human) and IW (a human) possess such attributes, he ignores it, and tries to handwave it away as PIS, which I address.
You made up a stupid nonsensical theory that is unsupported.
Skill can give a character more speed by making them perceive and move faster. But now they are faster.
You haven't disproved that.

If through skill I can move my arms at a higher velocity than someone else then I'm faster. If through skill I can perceive motion quicker than someone else then I'm faster. The source of my speed is irrelevant as this is about whose faster.

Speed is all about movement speed or reflexes (time it takes to initiate an action AFTER stimuli comes into existence)..

You showed IW bubbling some random blasts with unknown velocity (which doesn't require skill but super powers).

You showed that Batman got out of the way of HV after he had warning and not necessarily after the fire.

Therefore you haven't proven your case sir.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
You made up a stupid nonsensical theory that is unsupported.
Skill can give a character more speed by making them perceive and move faster. But now they are faster.
You haven't disproved that.

If through skill I can move my arms at a higher velocity than someone else then I'm faster. If through skill I can perceive motion quicker and someone else then I'm faster. The source of my speed is irrelevant.

Speed is all about movement speed or reflexes (time it takes to initiate an action AFTER stimuli comes into existence)..

You showed IW bubbling some random blasts with unknown velocity (which doesn't require skill but super powers).

You showed that Batman got out of the way of HV after he had warning and not necessarily after the fire.

Therefore you haven't proven your case sir.

You didn't see all my scans. Come back when you have. And please don't ignore them smile

Edit: no point attempting to debate with you when you are coming from a position of ignorance.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You didn't see all my scans. Come back when you have. And please don't ignore them smile I addressed them twice. If you read my last post I address them a 2nd time showing that they don't prove your case.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I mean, we are just going down a pedantic route now (in front of vs behind).

Batman clearly moves AFTER the HV has fired here:

https://i.postimg.cc/MZ3C65zg/RCO012-1485337935.jpg.

Now, PIS? Sure. But writers don't have 'PIS' - in fact, they'd be offended we use that term ,lol. Batman has no superspeed, but he does have insane skills.

Skills which enable him to react to HV AFTER it was fired. Comics have shown this.

So back to the point in hand. In comics, writers use 'skill' as a catch-all magical BS, which enables a character to cross gaps in physical stats, including speed. Thus, in a discussion about speed, we need to take that into account, and 'deduct points', as it were.

Batman moving out of the way of HV AFTER they have been fired.

The point was to do with energy blasts, no? I have shown energy blasts, right?

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batman moving out of the way of HV AFTER they have been fired.

The point was to do with energy blasts, no? I have shown energy blasts, right?

So that scan isn't from behind. I knew of that feat and that's why I addressed it BEFORE you posted the scan. I knew you were about to post that scan so I countered before you did. It seems you are the one ignoring things.

I'll repeat from that earlier post

So either
1) HV is moving far less than the speed of light
Or
2) Batman can actually move at least 1/100 of the speed of light, regardless if you claim that skill is the source of his speed.
Or
3) It's PIS and not usable. You know that PIS CAN NOT be used as evidence for anything other than to prove PIS.

h1a8
If through skill I can run a million miles per hour then I can still run a million miles per hour.

The source of my speed is irrelevant to the fact that I can run a million miles per hour. Common sense.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
So that scan isn't from behind. I knew of that feat and that's why I addressed it BEFORE you posted the scan. I knew you were about to post that scan so I countered before you did. It seems you are the one ignoring things.

I'll repeat from that earlier post

So either
1) HV is moving far less than the speed of light
Or
2) Batman can actually move at least 1/100 of the speed of light, regardless if you claim that skill is the source of his speed.
Or
3) It's PIS and not usable. You know that PIS CAN NOT be used as evidence for anything other than to prove PIS.

PIS does not exist in universe; note my words in my post. The writer does not have PIS - he/she wrote that scene, and the explanation is that Batman has the skills to do what he does.

The alternative is that he has the speed to do what he does, which no writer has ever said. So this can be thrown out.

The third explanation is PIS, as you say. But that is a term we have invented, to explain inexplicable showings. The writer doesn't have the intent that Batman can utilize PIS.

Moreover, you also failed to address my other IW scan. Did we not talk about blasts? And did I not show this? So how am I suddenly ignoring this? You seem to love moving the goal posts - first I had to show blasts, then I now have to quantify exactly said energy blasts?

Why don't YOU quantify Darkseid's energy blasts? After all, Batman (again!) has been able to even say a word as the blasts zipped their way to him.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
If through skill I can run a million miles per hour then I can still run a million miles per hour.

The source of my speed is irrelevant to the fact that I can run a million miles per hour. Common sense.

Because in comics, skill and speed are two separate concepts. As seen with Batman, and other humans.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
And:

https://i.postimg.cc/MTKVsTWt/O9CXMIu.jpg

Note she has to not only block, but each shield has a different frequency. Note too, some firing behind her smile

H1, did you not ask for blasts? Here you are. Mysteriously, no rebuttal.

Of course, if you want to put the burden of proof on me for these blasts' speed, surely you know how fast Darkseid's blasts are right? Not estimates, a concrete number?

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Because in comics, skill and speed are two separate concepts. As seen with Batman, and other humans.

Skill can fuel speed and therefore it is relevant to speed.
If skill makes me run a million miles per then guess what? I can run a million miles per hour.

If skill allows me to move with 1/100 the speed of light then Guess what? I can move at 1/100 the speed of light.

You still have to be fast enough to move out of the way AFTER the fire.

You are just repeating the same unsupported nonsensical argument.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
Skill can fuel speed and therefore it is relevant to speed.
If skill makes me run a million miles per then guess what? I can run a million miles per hour.

If skill allows me to move with 1/100 the speed of light then Guess what? I can move at 1/100 the speed of light.

You still have to be fast enough to move out of the way AFTER the fire.

You are just repeating the same unsupported nonsensical argument.

Skill is what writers use to explain Batman's showings. They don't rely on PIS as an explanation. Thus, as per writer intent, skill enables humans to have superhuman speed (like with Batman).

Of course, am ignoring goofy comics where PIS is explicitly used (Toon force). Batman doesn't have this, a writer does not sit down and go well ok, he does this because of my own stupidity in writing.

Smurph

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
H1, did you not ask for blasts? Here you are. Mysteriously, no rebuttal.

Of course, if you want to put the burden of proof on me for these blasts' speed, surely you know how fast Darkseid's blasts are right? Not estimates, a concrete number?

I can sit here an argue the following:

Again the speed is unknown. But even assuming light speed then it's still inconclusive (create bubbles in advanced and aim dodging possibly)

But I won't since my statement still stands

So assuming no prep bubbles or aim dodging then

Either
1) Beams were significantly less than the speed of light
Or
2) Beams where the speed of light and IW moved with at least 1/100 the speed of light.
Or
3)
PIS

h1a8

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Skill is what writers use to explain Batman's showings. They don't rely on PIS as an explanation. Thus, as per writer intent, skill enables humans to have superhuman speed (like with Batman).

Of course, am ignoring goofy comics where PIS is explicitly used (Toon force). Batman doesn't have this, a writer does not sit down and go well ok, he does this because of my own stupidity in writing. PIS exists independent of writers intent. A writer can ntend for a character to do something but it is still PIS.

Again if skill allows me to run a million miles per hour than I can run a million miles per hour.

If skill allows Batman to move at 1/100 the speed of light Or better then Batman can move at 1/100 the speed of light Or better.

The source of speed is irrelevant. It's all about how how you can move or respond.

Here's a joke:

I and Usian Bolt (at his best) race the 100m dash.
I beat him by 4 seconds.
People ask me how I did it.
I tell them I used skill.

Judges disqualify me telling me that skill is illegal.
I cry.

Smurph

h1a8

Smurph

h1a8

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
PIS exists independent of writers intent. A writer can ntend for a character to do something but it is still PIS.

Again if skill allows me to run a million miles per hour than I can run a million miles per hour.

If skill allows Batman to move at 1/100 the speed of light Or better then Batman can move at 1/100 the speed of light Or better.

The source of speed is irrelevant. It's all about how how you can move or respond.

Here's a joke:

I and Usian Bolt (at his best) race the 100m dash.
I beat him by 4 seconds.
People ask me how I did it.
I tell them I used skill.

Judges disqualify me telling me that skill is illegal.
I cry.

But I am not using the Batman scan to prove he is faster or that he beats XYZ character here.

I am using it to show that writers have, in fact, shown Batman moving and reacting to energy blasts AFTER they have been fired.

Which is what I have said.

I also showed IW doing the same. So your statement, that they can't do it because it hasn't happened, is false.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
If I say they can't that means they haven't. Prove that they reacted lasers shot from behind them AFTER they were fired.

Done.

StiltmanFTW
Fun facts:


h1 has a brain tumour size of a horse testicle

he uses IE6 as his one and only browser

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But I am not using the Batman scan to prove he is faster or that he beats XYZ character here.

I am using it to show that writers have, in fact, shown Batman moving and reacting to energy blasts AFTER they have been fired.

Which is what I have said.

I also showed IW doing the same. So your statement, that they can't do it because it hasn't happened, is false.

The statement was from "behind" and "lasers" in which you haven't.
The batman scan is inconclusive and so is the IW scan.

I never stated that Batman didnt react to an energy blast after the fire because I knew of 2 separate instances where he did.
But you stated "behind" and "lasers" to both which are not necessarily true.

DarkSaint85
Originally posted by h1a8
The statement was from "behind" and "lasers" in which you haven't.
The batman scan is inconclusive and so is the IW scan.

I never stated that Batman didnt react to an energy blast after the fire because I knew of 2 separate instances where he did.
But you stated "behind" and "lasers" to both which are not necessarily true.

The blasts came from behind them, and they reacted. You being pedantic is beneath you, as you once said to me.

The writer intent is still that two humans were able to react to blasts, despite having human level speed, because of their skill.

h1a8
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The blasts came from behind them, and they reacted. You being pedantic is beneath you, as you once said to me.

The writer intent is still that two humans were able to react to blasts, despite having human level speed, because of their skill. It is inconclusive that Batman reacted after the fire. It's inconclusive that they were lasers.

And assuming they reacted after the fire

Then either
1) beam wasn't very fast (not near the speed of light)
Or
2) beam was near the speed of light and they move 1/100 the speed of light or more
Or
3) PIS

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