Can Luke's character be salvaged?

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Eli Vanto
I'm a fan of canon Luke, but considering that we already know how his story concludes thanks to the abomination that is TLJ, do you think his story is even salvageable at this point?

NewGuy01
Not really.

Underachiever59
To each their own. I have no issue with Luke's story, or his portrayal in The Last Jedi. And the way he went out is arguably the most Jedi thing we've ever seen any Jedi do in canon. Halted an entire army in its tracks, inspired hope across the galaxy, and saved the last remaining members of the Resistance, all without ever doing any harm to any of his adversaries. It was basically the purest example of Jedi pacifist ideals expressed in almost any Star Wars storytelling medium.

And just because we know how a character's story ends doesn't mean we can't enjoy the current stories being told with them. People loved Obi-Wan in the Prequels and The Clone Wars, despite having already seen A New Hope and knowing he would get cut down by Vader. A lot of time, storytelling is about the journey, not the conclusion.

Luke is being fantastically written in Charles Soule's current Star Wars comic run, and has plenty of other great canon stories as well. The Mandalorian, Rise of Kylo Ren #2, Battlefront 2, Shattered Empire, and Weapon of a Jedi, just to name a few. Just because he doesn't always have the biggest part to play in those stories doesn't mean he's being poorly written.

This is especially apparent considering every time he seems to pop up in a story about other characters, his appearance goes down as being a fan favorite moment from that story. Look at how incredibly hyped people were by his very, very brief appearance at the end of Mandalorian Season 2. Look at how many people point to Luke's mission in Battlefront 2 as the best moment in that whole game.


If you think Luke's ending ruins all of that other storytelling, and you can't get over a movie that came out four years ago, maybe just admit to yourself that you're not a big fan of Luke and move on to other characters?

xPRIMEx

Galan007
I didn't have a problem with how Luke was killed-off in TLJ, per se. I had a problem with his initial hopelessness and disdain for the Jedi Order -- that aspect of his characterization was handled poorly, imo.

That being said, nothing short of a major retcon would be able to undo Luke's portrayal in TLJ... But it could conceivably happen if they go the cloning route, I suppose.

For example, we know that in canon, Palpatine 'bottled' Luke's hand after Vader sliced it off in ESB:
https://ibb.co/PMWFgMW

We also know that Mount Tantiss is a canon cloning facility(per the Bad Batch finale.) Moreover, we know that Thrawn is still alive as of The Mandalorian S02.

This is only relevant because in Legends, Luuke Skywalker was a clone that appeared during the original Thrawn trilogy, who was grown on Mount Tantiss from cells extracted from the hand he lost during ESB.

So the groundwork has effectively been laid out for a Luke clone to potentially appear in canon... Although I can't imagine the uproar it would cause if it were revealed that the Luke we saw in TLJ/RoS was just a clone, and the 'real' Luke was still roaming the galaxy...

xPRIMEx

Sheev
Originally posted by Galan007
I didn't have a problem with how Luke was killed-off in TLJ, per se. I had a problem with his initial hopelessness and disdain for the Jedi Order -- that aspect of his characterization was handled poorly, imo.

That being said, nothing short of a major retcon would be able to undo Luke's portrayal in TLJ... But it could conceivably happen if they go the cloning route, I suppose.

For example, we know that in canon, Palpatine 'bottled' Luke's hand after Vader sliced it off in ESB:
https://ibb.co/PMWFgMW

We also know that Mount Tantiss is a canon cloning facility(per the Bad Batch finale.) Moreover, we know that Thrawn is still alive as of The Mandalorian S02.

This is only relevant because in Legends, Luuke Skywalker was a clone that appeared during the original Thrawn trilogy, who was grown on Mount Tantiss from cells extracted from the hand he lost during ESB.

So the groundwork has effectively been laid out for a Luke clone to potentially appear in canon... Although I can't imagine the uproar it would cause if it were revealed that the Luke we saw in TLJ/RoS was just a clone, and the 'real' Luke was still roaming the galaxy... Retconning TLJ Luke into a clone would be such a perfect **** you to the ST. laughing out loud

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Sheev
Retconning TLJ Luke into a clone would be such a perfect **** you to the ST. laughing out loud


Yeah I think everyone would cheer that move. Look how some fans want to desperately believe the ST is a different timeline where Ezra didnt save Ahsoka.

But its too far fetched to expect them to essentially retcon the sequels.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Underachiever59
To each their own. I have no issue with Luke's story, or his portrayal in The Last Jedi. And the way he went out is arguably the most Jedi thing we've ever seen any Jedi do in canon. Halted an entire army in its tracks, inspired hope across the galaxy, and saved the last remaining members of the Resistance, all without ever doing any harm to any of his adversaries. It was basically the purest example of Jedi pacifist ideals expressed in almost any Star Wars storytelling medium.

The problem isn't his death, at least not in a vacuum; the problem is his uninspired backstory. His life's work was the New Jedi Order, it failed unceremoniously (and for the silliest of reasons), and then he gave up. There's no story potential there. I guess you can write stories about the creation of the NJO, but why would anyone want to read that? It rose, it fell, it didn't accomplish anything, it didn't leave a trace. Its only function in the story was to be the thing Luke is depressed about. Remove its existence wholesale, and nothing about the ST's setting changes, so why bother setting it up?



Luke showing up and kicking ass is enough to excite a lot of fans, sure. That's just cashing in on nostalgia though, nothing of value is being added to his character. If anything, the overcompensation has made his personality more stale than before.



Yup, I'm not a fan, and I've moved on. It's a shame, though.

ares834
Originally posted by Underachiever59
If you think Luke's ending ruins all of that other storytelling, and you can't get over a movie that came out four years ago, maybe just admit to yourself that you're not a big fan of Luke and move on to other characters?

Completely wrong. I'm a big fan of Luke. You know the actual Luke Skwalker. Not the broken failure of a man we got in Rian's shitty fanfiction.

Eli Vanto
Kinda what I'm getting at.

It's hard for me to completely get behind canon Luke as a character, because we already know where he ends up. So regardless of all the good things he does now, we still know where his story inevitably goes. We still know that he becomes this broken, emo variant of guy he used to be..because Rian is a complete f*ckwit.

Dont get me wrong I'd be perfectly happy with a retcon of some kind. I think most of us would be. But assuming Disney was even willing to retcon bits from the ST, how would they go about changing Luke for the better in a believable way?

xPRIMEx

Darth Thor

Galan007
Also the fact that Luke, however briefly, considered murdering his own nephew while he slept... cuz inner darkness, lol.

Rewind to the OT, and Luke didn't believe that anyone was beyond redemption... Even someone with Vader's track record. Seeing the good in others, even when no one else could see it, was always one of Luke's most important defining qualities as a character. He was the quintessential embodiment of hope.

...Then Rian happened.

Darth Thor
And what made it worse was they DID redeem him by the end of the trilogy. So we factually know he was redeemable, which just makes Lukes actions as told in TLJ seem even more scummy. Not Jedi like and not OT Luke like. Not At All.

Total Warrior
Wasn't there any SW expert in Ryan's stuff that told him to stop when he came up with his shitty idea?

"I'd like to have an emotionaly conflicted Luke--"
"No Ryan no **** you, it's not how Luke works"

Sheev
Originally posted by Galan007
Also the fact that Luke, however briefly, considered murdering his own nephew while he slept... cuz inner darkness, lol.

Rewind to the OT, and Luke didn't believe that anyone was beyond redemption... Even someone with Vader's track record. Seeing the good in others, even when no one else could see it, was always one of Luke's most important defining qualities as a character. He was the quintessential embodiment of hope.

...Then Rian happened. If we're talking retcons, then they could always make the sequence where Luke was supposedly going to attack Ben just be an illusion that Sidious placed into his mind to help sway him to the dark side.

Galan007
Except for the fact that it was Luke himself who told Rey that he considered flaying Ben in his sleep.

Sheev
Originally posted by Galan007
Except for the fact that it was Luke himself who told Rey that he considered flaying Ben in his sleep. True but hear me out..

We know Sidious is more powerful then Luke and Kylo in canon. So retcon things to where Sidious injected those thoughts into BOTH of their minds, so they basically would have only saw and felt what Sidious WANTED them to see and feel. That would at least alter things to where Luke's thoughts of killing Ben weren't actually his own.

That kind of minor retcon could actually help salvage Luke's characterization across the board IMO.

Eli Vanto
Sidious tried to go the TP route on Luke in the Ages comics, and it didn't exactly go in his favor.

and if I remember right, that was ROTJ Luke. ST Luke should have been considerably more resilient to TP.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Total Warrior
Wasn't there any SW expert in Ryan's stuff that told him to stop when he came up with his shitty idea?

"I'd like to have an emotionaly conflicted Luke--"
"No Ryan no **** you, it's not how Luke works"


Mark Hamill kinda did tell him that. But was probably too late by the time Hamill saw the script.

StiltmanFTW
Rian's whole style is about "subverting expectations".

Looking at both R1 and Solo (not to mention the recent and upcoming work by Filoni and Favreau), I think it's safe to say that Sequel Trilogy could have easily been handled hundreds of times better.

You guys better hope Rian will not return:

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Untitled_Star_Wars_trilogy

NewGuy01
The ST would have been bad with or without Rian.

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Even that wouldnt justify it.

In ANH Lukes adopted parents were murdered by the Empire. Then Ben by Vader. Did Luke give up, become a loner and go into depression?

Then think how that was an untrained Luke, and the sequels were supposed to give as Luke as a true Jedi Master. Perhaps the best ever.

That's the other thing. You can't even blame his cynicism in TLJ on the fallout from tragic events, and have Luke grow as a character in the interim. Because we're shown in TLJ that even at the height of his accomplishment, he fails at all of the same trials that he'd already overcome in the OT. In some ways, he continues to come short of himself even after TLJ. If any media has post-RotJ Luke evolve into anything other than a disappointment, then it's pretty much contradicting the film.

xPRIMEx

Darth Thor

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The ST would have been bad with or without Rian.

There is bad and there is awful.

Rian's humour in the first scene was worse than any Scary Movie, which was considered to be an impossible feat.

Then he exposed us to this:

https://i.ibb.co/k5SB5Rj/Hi-Fi-GIF-cc-star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalkers-breast-milk-small.gif

Darth Thor
Originally posted by NewGuy01
The ST would have been bad with or without Rian.


Yeah it was clearly trying to repeat the OT from the start which was a terrible idea.

First one made bank of course. But the whole nostalgia thing is a one time trick. But then youre stuck for the rest of the trilogy.



Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
There is bad and there is awful.

Rian's humour in the first scene was worse than any Scary Movie, which was considered to be an impossible feat.

Then he exposed us to this:

https://i.ibb.co/k5SB5Rj/Hi-Fi-GIF-cc-star-wars-the-last-jedi-luke-skywalkers-breast-milk-small.gif

Yuk

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Yeah it was clearly trying to repeat the OT from the start which was a terrible idea.
That's indeed bad enough on its own, and it's made worse by the fact that there was never so much as a general outline for the trilogy's plot. Concluding a 9-film series with a trilogy by three different writers, who were each bid to improvise the story as they went along, is among the worst ideas I've ever heard. Worse yet, they didn't even go through with it, and now the whole thing feels like an back-and-forth argument between Rian and Abrams over who the characters are, and what the story was supposed to be about.

TLJ was a sour turning point, but in retrospect, I think J.J. did more harm than Rian between how he started the trilogy with an ANH copy paste, and how he decided to follow up TLJ by trying to undermine Rian's direction.

StiltmanFTW
The worst part is that it has happened and we're stuck with it... and there's no good way to retcon or reboot it, since Carrie's gone and Hamill is not willing to be included in large projects again...

Galan007
Originally posted by NewGuy01
TLJ was a sour turning point, but in retrospect, I think J.J. did more harm than Rian between how he started the trilogy with an ANH copy paste, and how he decided to follow up TLJ by trying to undermine Rian's direction. Yeah, I've gone back and fourth with that myself.

It essentially became "Rian's vision v.s JJ's vision"... Which just didn't work. Would have likely been better in the scheme of things(from a cohesive POV) if one director had been in charge of the ST from start to finish.

StiltmanFTW
We probably would still end up being disappointed.

Filoni and Favreau will need years to repair the damage caused by those imbeciles.

Galan007
Make no mistake, the ST would have still failed... Both JJ and Rian just wanted to copy/paste the OT, which is ridiculous.

Just saying that the ST would've probably made more sense overall, if one guy had been in charge from start to finish.

S_W_LeGenD
They cannot do much with him now.

Sequel Trilogy should have been a new story set about 150 years later than the Original Trilogy. A young Jedi discovers ancient artifacts and awakens an ancient evil and disaster follows (or something on these lines). This could be a fresh take on Star Wars on the big screen. This route would have left much space for writers to expand on Luke Skywalker and his exploits without ruining the character.

The Nostalgia Pandering route adopted by Disney ruined Sequel Trilogy. The Directors hired for the job were lacking in vision as well. They attempted to recreate a Galactic environment similar to that of the Original Trilogy but made it infinitely worse by introducing villians who were merely puppets of Palpatine and turned Luke Skywalker into a failure only to job for Rey who herself was related to Palpatine. There is no depth and sense of accomplishment in this story.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by S_W_LeGenD


Sequel Trilogy should have been a new story set about 150 years later than the Original Trilogy. A young Jedi discovers ancient artifacts and awakens an ancient evil and disaster follows (or something on these lines). This could be a fresh take on Star Wars on the big screen. This route would have left much space for writers to expand on Luke Skywalker and his exploits without ruining the character.





Nah Should have focused around Luke's Jedi Academy.

That way it's also fresh (not done before), can also include the OT characters, and whatever other Galactic shenanigans are going on it would show the OT wasn't all for nothing.

Darth Thor
Oh and welcome back Legend.

Total Warrior

Total Warrior
I would have kept Rey. Well, maybe her character written a bit better, but I like the idea of a descendant of Palpatine serving as a Jedi. I would have made her a biological descendant of the emperor himself honestly, not just a clone. I think exploring how she deals with her past and her present as a Jedi would be cool. So her and Ben Solo could have been those who end the war in the final movie and will continue the work of Luke

StiltmanFTW
Originally posted by Galan007
Make no mistake, the ST would have still failed... Both JJ and Rian just wanted to copy/paste the OT, which is ridiculous.

Just saying that the ST would've probably made more sense overall, if one guy had been in charge from start to finish.

Yeah. As we already talked in a gazillion different threads and came to the same conclusion.

Disney wanted to replicate that unique magic responsible for the OT success.

Even if we see Marquand as a puppet director and exclude him, Kershner was a god and Lucas was Lucas.

Darth Thor
Originally posted by Total Warrior
I would have kept Rey. Well, maybe her character written a bit better, but I like the idea of a descendant of Palpatine serving as a Jedi. I would have made her a biological descendant of the emperor himself honestly, not just a clone. I think exploring how she deals with her past and her present as a Jedi would be cool. So her and Ben Solo could have been those who end the war in the final movie and will continue the work of Luke


Rey and Finn were both good ideas on paper.

Rey could be the strong force sensitive being discovered and joining the Academy by the end of the first film. Essentially the Harry Potter.

Have 3 years between films, and by the 3rd one both Rey and Finn would be Jedi Knights.

Kylo was fine on paper as well. Just dont kill him after his redemption. Much more interesting to have him live with his sins. Dont just copy Vaders OT story to the letter FFS.

StiltmanFTW
Driver at least put some effort and actually interacted with the fans, if memory serves?

Rest of the new cast didn't give a shit, lol.

Total Warrior
well if I recall John Boyega was also very involved into it

StiltmanFTW
laughing out loud

NewGuy01
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Rey and Finn were both good ideas on paper.
Finn would've been really cool if his character actually reflected his character settings. He deserts, leaves everything he's ever known behind because he's uncomfortable with killing despite years of conditioning. Then 5 minutes later, he has zero qualms about blasting his brothers in arms to smithereens, no hesitation. If his relationship to the stormtroopers was so inconsequential, then why even make him a stormtrooper...

...what was Rey's idea, again? Do you mean her being retconned into a Palpatine?

Darth Thor
Originally posted by NewGuy01
...what was Rey's idea, again? Do you mean her being retconned into a Palpatine?


No just the idea of an orphan who is a powerful force sensitive whose never left her planet but joins the adventure. I get thats still like Luke but in an entirely different Galactic setting thatd work fine.

Agree Finn had tons of potential. Annoys me he never wore his stormtrooper costume again. Like keep it, use it to go undercover like Kanan and Ezra always did.

Also should have explored his force sensitivity from the start. And not just make that a throwaway line in the last film.

I guess in a Jedi Academy based series all characters would start off younger as well, so probably have to be a different cast.

NewGuy01
Having a major Jedi character who isn't an extraordinary Force sensitive would also have been a nice change of pace @Finn. It might have been difficult to keep him from being overshadowed by Rey in that case, but I could see it being done in a similar way to Leia in the EU, where being a Jedi was only a secondary pursuit for that character.

S_W_LeGenD
Originally posted by Darth Thor
Nah Should have focused around Luke's Jedi Academy.

That way it's also fresh (not done before), can also include the OT characters, and whatever other Galactic shenanigans are going on it would show the OT wasn't all for nothing.
This could be independent interim project. Luke Skywalker proceeds to establish the New Jedi Order. He has to deal with numerous challenges including Imperial Remnants in the course. He gets his own films and stories to tell.

Sequel Trilogy set in the future could show that Luke Skywalker succeeded in rebuilding the Jedi Order and restoring peace to the galaxy. While the New Jedi Order is attempting to manage a more evolved version of the galaxy, a task force is in the process of discovering and recovering ancient artifacts and awakens an ancient evil in the process, and disaster follows. In this manner, Sequel Trilogy could not only show Luke in a positive light but could tell a new story which could allow an entirely new set of characters to emerge and develop while they learn how to deal with the new threat. This could be something fresh to rejuvenate Star Wars and draw more people to it.

Original Trilogy clicked because it was something new and fresh at the time. George Lucas had ample time to add to it with Prequel Trilogy among other project.

Similarly, KoTOR clicked because it was something new and fresh at the time, although in game format.

People need to move on from Original Trilogy to be honest. The continous appeal to OT Nostalgia has prevented Star Wars from evolving into something new and fresh over time. Just look at the heap of mess the Sequel Triology turned into due to said practice. Both of the fan favorites Luke and Palpatine became anticlimatic in the end. It also diminished the significance of Death Star.

Disney is doing nothing but fan-servicing and hyping Darth Vader with junk stories. Novel writers are left to pick on the pieces and make sense of them but there is a limit to how much junk can be addressed.

Disney had an entire Expanded Universe lore at its disposal to draw from and tell relatively better stories but people in charge are not bright to begin with.

If I was George Lucas, I would be pretty upset.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Oh and welcome back Legend.
Thank you.

I am more into other games and professional matters.

Star Wars under Disney does not appeal to me much. Rogue One is memorable though.

Bedabing
Originally posted by Underachiever59
To each their own. I have no issue with Luke's story, or his portrayal in The Last Jedi. And the way he went out is arguably the most Jedi thing we've ever seen any Jedi do in canon. Halted an entire army in its tracks, inspired hope across the galaxy, and saved the last remaining members of the Resistance, all without ever doing any harm to any of his adversaries. It was basically the purest example of Jedi pacifist ideals expressed in almost any Star Wars storytelling medium.

And just because we know how a character's story ends doesn't mean we can't enjoy the current stories being told with them. People loved Obi-Wan in the Prequels and The Clone Wars, despite having already seen A New Hope and knowing he would get cut down by Vader. A lot of time, storytelling is about the journey, not the conclusion.

Luke is being fantastically written in Charles Soule's current Star Wars comic run, and has plenty of other great canon stories as well. The Mandalorian, Rise of Kylo Ren #2, Battlefront 2, Shattered Empire, and Weapon of a Jedi, just to name a few. Just because he doesn't always have the biggest part to play in those stories doesn't mean he's being poorly written.

This is especially apparent considering every time he seems to pop up in a story about other characters, his appearance goes down as being a fan favorite moment from that story. Look at how incredibly hyped people were by his very, very brief appearance at the end of Mandalorian Season 2. Look at how many people point to Luke's mission in Battlefront 2 as the best moment in that whole game.


If you think Luke's ending ruins all of that other storytelling, and you can't get over a movie that came out four years ago, maybe just admit to yourself that you're not a big fan of Luke and move on to other characters?

Bedabing
Originally posted by NewGuy01
Not really.

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