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this is pretty simple

CIS OFF, FULL CAPACITY

Wally

Wally bfr him for the 10 count.

Wally oneshots this clown

Cosmic Thor.

Wally, easily.

Originally posted by lawest9
Cosmic Thor.

Cosmic Thor

Wait, why do you talk about speed and give other characters advantages due to speed in a forum fight but Flash, the embodiment of speed, you're mentioning his fights against slow people as a crutch here and giving Thor the edge over him because of it? Wtf

Well said Stoic, the most sensible post here yet.

Originally posted by lawest9
Well said Stoic, the most sensible post here yet.

Originally posted by carver9
Wally bfr him for the 10 count. 😆😆😆

Cosmic Thor ftw

Originally posted by carver9
Wait, why do you talk about speed and give other characters advantages due to speed in a forum fight but Flash, the embodiment of speed, you're mentioning his fights against slow people as a crutch here and giving Thor the edge over him because of it? Wtf

Because Thor with the Odin Force controlled time at one point. If you can control time, speed becomes less dangerous. If you read my entire post, I mentioned that I would not be surprised if Wally did win for obvious reasons.

Originally posted by carver9


Speed kills, what can I say. You should read entire posts before going with the bitter routine.

Originally posted by Stoic
Because Thor with the Odin Force controlled time at one point. If you can control time, speed becomes less dangerous. If you read my entire post, I mentioned that I would not be surprised if Wally did win for obvious reasons.

When did he do this? Or are you using a different version of the one in the thread?

What is Wally's greatest feat?

Anally raping Anti-Monitor?

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
What is Wally's greatest feat?

Anally raping Anti-Monitor?
Outracing Death, being faster than the Speed Force, being casually faster than the JLA, casually timejumping in the middle of a conversation....quite a few of his feats are just casual things that DC just shows in his comics.

Also Barry just pushed the entire universe through time or something

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Outracing Death, being faster than the Speed Force, being casually faster than the JLA, casually timejumping in the middle of a conversation....quite a few of his feats are just casual things that DC just shows in his comics.

Also Barry just pushed the entire universe through time or something

Composite?

no

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Outracing Death, being faster than the Speed Force, being casually faster than the JLA, casually timejumping in the middle of a conversation....quite a few of his feats are just casual things that DC just shows in his comics.

Also Barry just pushed the entire universe through time or something

mmm

So he never actually beats anyone, just runs and hallucinates?

Ezra Miller is indeed the perfect Flash.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
mmm

So he never actually beats anyone, just runs and hallucinates?

Ezra Miller is indeed the perfect Flash.

Barry beat the Turtle!!!!

Originally posted by Stoic
Because Thor with the Odin Force controlled time at one point. If you can control time, speed becomes less dangerous. If you read my entire post, I mentioned that I would not be surprised if Wally did win for obvious reasons.

Thor doesn't have the SPEED to pull off the attack before being blitzed. Don't switch up now. You've always debated speed, so please stay consistent.

Originally posted by carver9
please stay consistent.

hysterical

Where's my Scooby snack for being consistent

Originally posted by -Pr-
hysterical

Lol... what's funny? I'm always consistent. Hater!!!

Originally posted by carver9
Lol... what's funny? I'm always consistent. Hater!!! Originally posted by -Pr-
hysterical

I mean....he's consistently silly. There IS that.

If Thor knew what he was dealing with beforehand he could shield himself from the attack, I don't see this version of Thor losing.

Originally posted by lawest9
If Thor knew what he was dealing with beforehand he could shield himself from the attack, I don't see this version of Thor losing.

You think he can out react Wally? Why does only Thor know who he is dealing with beforehand lol

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You think he can out react Wally? Why does only Thor know who he is dealing with beforehand lol

COSMIC AWARENESS!!!

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
You think he can out react Wally? Why does only Thor know who he is dealing with beforehand lol It's just a scenario, the Flashes can do a lot of off the chain crazy feats but there are limits even with speed.

Originally posted by lawest9
It's just a scenario, the Flashes can do a lot of off the chain crazy feats but there are limits even with speed.

Well....I mean, yeah, we can create a completely one sided scenario where Wally has no legs or something if you want to give Thor a chance

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well....I mean, yeah, we can create a completely one sided scenario where Wally has no legs or something if you want to give Thor a chance That's a little ridiculous, Wally could win this but it's not going to be that easy if it all against a being who destroyed both Galactus and the Black Winter.

It's going to be trivial.

Speed steal in the first picosecond. Thor and Mjolnir are literal statues. Nothing they can do.

Originally posted by carver9
Thor doesn't have the SPEED to pull off the attack before being blitzed. Don't switch up now. You've always debated speed, so please stay consistent.

Time manipulation. Google the meaning, or continue being contrary.

The CIS off makes pretty lopsided in favour of Flash, yeah?

CIS off, full capacity.

In the first picosecond, he speed steals Cosmic Thor and Mjolnir's speed. Thor becomes a statue, unable to even understand that he's in a fight.

Stealing Thor's "speed" might turn Flash into a statue...

How far up the chain can Wally speed steal?!

Except Thor still relies on science. His limbs, his muscles, his neurons etc still fire and utilise kinetic energy.

If he cannot move, cannot think, then magic is for naught.

Isn't Speed Force also controls space-time and it was stated is something more terrific than magic or somesuch?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Isn't Speed Force also controls space-time and it was stated is something more terrific than magic or somesuch?

Are you talking about this?
https://i.postimg.cc/D0XtQKsF/jl-30-recap.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Are you talking about this?
https://i.postimg.cc/D0XtQKsF/jl-30-recap.jpg

No, I was referring to this scene ( the Speed Force is far more horrific than magic or science part, and it keeps the Multiverse moving)

https://ibb.co/RSqsNbK

And for the Speed Force can control time. I think it based on multiple facts depicted such

For examples

Well known feat of Flash manipulating entire space-time and moving it forward
https://ibb.co/F372zg0
https://ibb.co/vL3JL1W
https://ibb.co/q0RMbBc
https://ibb.co/SXmWFBd
https://ibb.co/9y9ZMRh
https://ibb.co/k51hRjV

We also have bio states Speed Force controls all motions in the Multiverse. Through it, time itself moves forward or backwards
https://ibb.co/qd4CpqR

The writer who wrote the above scenes( Speed Force keeps the Multiverse moving, Flash manipulated entire space-time to banish the Turtle) also took similar approach about it
https://i.ibb.co/cNP2H1P/3.jpg
https://www.comicsbeat.com/sdcc-joshua-williamson-interview/

We also have Thawne states the Speed Force IS time, technically, all of time
https://ibb.co/sy5QqPb

We also have Wally stops time by tapping the Speed Force in a different way
https://ibb.co/MZdwCkS
https://ibb.co/kX4n8FM


Etcetcetcetcetc

So, yeah, I would say you could control time via the Speed Force, since it controls all motions in the Multiverse, which includes time

awesome post

DS is stroking it as we speak

Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Except Thor still relies on science. His limbs, his muscles, his neurons etc still fire and utilise kinetic energy.

If he cannot move, cannot think, then magic is for naught.

The Power Cosmic changed him. Then you have wards of protection and full time stops, as well as debuffs, universal level TP assaults, physics bending magical and soul assaults. Wally still has a mortal soul.

^ How exactly does Wally's mortal soul bear on this match-up?

Originally posted by ODG
Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

what level would u place cosmic thor

Originally posted by ODG
Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

That's my question.

Originally posted by MrMind
what level would u place cosmic thor Skyfather level? Cosmic Thor was capable of manipulating an amped Galactus' Power Cosmic but even I think it was via the convenient direct connection to the Power Cosmic that Galactus unwittingly bestowed upon him.

What else challenged Cosmic Thor at that point? Serious question. IIRC, a literal backstab from Knull, a Cosmic Cube wielding Shang Chi, and a Fist/Eye/Hellfire, Khonshu-supermoon amped Moon Knight. I definitely feel like I am missing more.

Originally posted by ODG
Skyfather level? Cosmic Thor was capable of manipulating an amped Galactus' Power Cosmic but even I think it was via the convenient direct connection to the Power Cosmic that Galactus unwittingly bestowed upon him.

What else challenged Cosmic Thor at that point? Serious question. IIRC, a literal backstab from Knull, a Cosmic Cube wielding Shang Chi, and a Fist/Eye/Hellfire, Khonshu-supermoon amped Moon Knight. I definitely feel like I am missing more.

do you think a cis less wally can hurt skyfather level being?

Originally posted by MrMind
do you think a cis less wally can hurt skyfather level being? I wouldn't count on it.

Originally posted by MrMind
do you think a cis less wally can hurt skyfather level being? Yes. Jane Thor kinda gave Odin the business in her best on-panel fight. But what skyfather-level beings has Wally speed-stole from? Or are we talking about two different things?

Originally posted by ODG
Yes. Jane Thor kinda gave Odin the business in her best on-panel fight. But what skyfather-level beings has Wally speed-stole from? Or are we talking about two different things?

He wasn't depicted as a skyfather during that arc ..he was definitely weaker than normal

^ That seems arbitrary. But if you want to set aside that fight entirely, are we supposed to pretend that high heralds like Superman, Flash, Thor and Silver Surfer haven't hurt skyfather-level beings? I mean... they've hurt Abstract-level beings...

What Abstract beings have Flash hurt.

^ Anti-Monitor?

Originally posted by ODG
Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

The question then becomes, is Cosmic Thor's kinetic energy any different from say, normal Thor's kinetic energy, for that question to be applicable. Agreed that Cosmic Thor could output energy levels far above Normal Thor, but does that mean he didn't need kinetic energy to move his arms or jaw etc?

Also, I'd place AntiMonitor above Skyfather level, but that's by the by.

How did CK Thor remain a Sky Father instead of being many millions of times more powerful than a Sky Father? Galactus is and was for that matter much greater than a Sky Father. With the Power Cosmic, it transformed him into much more.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No.

Magic mixed with the essence of the universe. Yes. Odin alone could stop time.

By the time he thinks to do it, the match would be over.

Plus, like I posted, Flash actually timestopped a Dr.Manhattan level being temporarily on panel.

If anyone going to do some time gimmick in this match, Flash has favorable chances

Yeah I saw that post after I read this last page and posted.
Wally has been pretty crazy lately.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
We also have Wally stops time by tapping the Speed Force in a different way
https://ibb.co/MZdwCkS
https://ibb.co/kX4n8FM

That's Batman who Laughs who had Dr Manhattan's powers or something, right?

Originally posted by ODG
Yes. Jane Thor kinda gave Odin the business in her best on-panel fight. But what skyfather-level beings has Wally speed-stole from? Or are we talking about two different things?

speed stealing is just one option

if wally can hurt thor, he can kill him before thor can react, it's the same deal with zoom

if he can punch him once, he can punch him a million time in millisecond, that's how fast wally is currently, in a cis less environment his speed has literally no limit



Originally posted by ODG
^ That seems arbitrary. But if you want to set aside that fight entirely, are we supposed to pretend that high heralds like Superman, Flash, Thor and Silver Surfer haven't hurt skyfather-level beings? I mean... they've hurt Abstract-level beings...

superman is far above high herald on the tier list but i digress

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
That's Batman who Laughs who had Dr Manhattan's powers or something, right?
Technically, a Dark Multiverse version of Manhattan. But the implication power is he should be around Manhattan's levels(albeit, still weaker than the prime version)

A power strong enough to create and destroy worlds. A Batmanhattan
Yes, I will be a culmination of human evil. And a cosmic weapon of infinite power
Plus a cosmic awareness that allows he to experience and absorb knowledge and experience of every batman in the Dark Multiverse, and seemingly has some precog ability

https://ibb.co/XJ86JVL
https://ibb.co/TBWmXvv
https://ibb.co/tbm5NGy
https://ibb.co/DL61kpZ
https://ibb.co/553dM3v
https://ibb.co/Nrjvq11

The Batman Who Laught's brain was placed into the body of a Bruce Wayne who had the godlike abilities of the entity called Doctor Manhattan
https://i.ibb.co/tsyQfXr/4.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
^ That seems arbitrary. But if you want to set aside that fight entirely, are we supposed to pretend that high heralds like Superman, Flash, Thor and Silver Surfer haven't hurt skyfather-level beings? I mean... they've hurt Abstract-level beings...

Arbitrary? Not at all, being weakened is a big deal.

Yes, they operate at that level

Originally posted by Stoic
How did CK Thor remain a Sky Father instead of being many millions of times more powerful than a Sky Father? Galactus is and was for that matter much greater than a Sky Father. With the Power Cosmic, it transformed him into much more. If you gave Odin the Power Cosmic, I don't see him being transformed into millions of times more powerful than he originally was. Hell, have Odin pass the entire Odinforce onto Galactus and I don't see him being millions of times more powerful either. That level of amp is like Supergod Hercules. Originally posted by MrMind
speed stealing is just one option

if wally can hurt thor, he can kill him before thor can react, it's the same deal with zoom

if he can punch him once, he can punch him a million time in millisecond, that's how fast wally is currently, in a cis less environment his speed has literally no limit

superman is far above high herald on the tier list but i digress Why stop there? Surely, in 100 milliseconds he can kill 100 Cosmic Thors with 1,000,000 punches each. After all, this is based on absolutely no comics whatsoever. Originally posted by Sin I AM
Arbitrary? Not at all, being weakened is a big deal.

Yes, they operate at that level Unless I'm forgetting something, I do not recall Odin losing the Odinforce. Not until well after his fight with Jane Thor. Yes, Mjolnir was revolting but that's because the Motherstorm overcame Odin's enchantment. It didn't break Odin himself.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Speed did affect Knull.

He caught Sentry easily enough.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Double post, just to say that you're just vomiting useless walls of text, lol. It sounds like you're just clinging to this fantasy version of Thor, with nothing backing it up whatsoever.

It's simple. If Thor has kinetic energy, it gets removed. Doesn't matter if he is amped a billion or a trillion times, if he still has kinetic energy it can get stolen. Cosmic Thor did nothing of the sort when he had the PC, otherwise I'm sure you'd have posted it.

Cosmic Thor has the Odin Force which is easily capable of time manipulation. That is a fact. Canon fact actually. Plot is why you did not see it. It was not needed. Thor is actually more powerful than Odin was as the All Father at base levels.

Your kinetic force argument is great without a means of undoing it. However, when another character actually has the ability in an all out battle that disregards character, type match, all abilities are to be considered. Not what you allow to be considered.

Originally posted by Stoic
He caught Sentry easily enough.



Cosmic Thor has the Odin Force which is easily capable of time manipulation. That is a fact. Canon fact actually. Plot is why you did not see it. It was not needed. Thor is actually more powerful than Odin was as the All Father at base levels.

Your kinetic force argument is great without a means of undoing it. However, when another character actually has the ability in an all out battle that disregards character, type match, all abilities are to be considered. Not what you allow to be considered.

Yet Wraith outdrew him when injured. Surfer blasted him just fine. Maybe he took Sentry out because of his connection to the Void.

Or character. Thor would prefer to bash his opponent's head in with Mjolnir, or blast with powerful energy blasts.

Where does it say character is disregarded?

Originally posted by Stoic
He caught Sentry easily enough.



Cosmic Thor has the Odin Force which is easily capable of time manipulation. That is a fact. Canon fact actually. Plot is why you did not see it. It was not needed. Thor is actually more powerful than Odin was as the All Father at base levels.

Your kinetic force argument is great without a means of undoing it. However, when another character actually has the ability in an all out battle that disregards character, type match, all abilities are to be considered. Not what you allow to be considered. Thor cannot manipulate time. Based on feats Odin is more powerful. Alot of what you are saying is incorrect

Cosmic Thor > Black Winter > Regular Thor> Depowered Throg > Entire Justice League amped by KMC's hate for Thor > weakened Rock Em Sock Em Robot > Composite Flash

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Cosmic Thor > Black Winter > Regular Thor> Depowered Throg > Entire Justice League amped by KMC's hate for Thor > weakened Rock Em Sock Em Robot > Composite Flash

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Double post, just to say that you're just vomiting useless walls of text, lol. It sounds like you're just clinging to this fantasy version of Thor, with nothing backing it up whatsoever.

It's simple. If Thor has kinetic energy, it gets removed. Doesn't matter if he is amped a billion or a trillion times, if he still has kinetic energy it can get stolen. Cosmic Thor did nothing of the sort when he had the PC, otherwise I'm sure you'd have posted it. Is it your intention to counter what you perceive to be a no-limits fallacy with an argument that itself is also a no-limits fallacy? I'll be honest, I've not tracked this conversation closely enough but this stuck out to me. Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Cosmic Thor > Black Winter > Regular Thor> Depowered Throg > Entire Justice League amped by KMC's hate for Thor > weakened Rock Em Sock Em Robot > Composite Flash Cosmic Thor defeated the Black Winter, yes. But we all know the context that if he wasn't able to strip/manipulate an amped Galactus' energies, Cosmic Thor woulda been toast, right?

Originally posted by ODG
Is it your intention to counter what you perceive to be a no-limits fallacy with an argument that itself is also a no-limits fallacy? I'll be honest, I've not tracked this conversation closely enough but this stuck out to me. Cosmic Thor defeated the Black Winter, yes. But we all know the context that if he wasn't able to strip/manipulate an amped Galactus' energies, Cosmic Thor woulda been toast, right?


Well, I put a Rock Em Sock Em Robot into the mix so everyone knows I mean business in this debate.

Originally posted by ShadowFyre
Well, I put a Rock Em Sock Em Robot into the mix so everyone knows I mean business in this debate. There is simply no room for levity in a comic book versus forum thread that discusses fictional comic book characters fighting hypothetical battles.

Because by the time he thinks to step out of time, he's already frozen.

That moment that he took, would be a lifetime to Wally.

Saint stop lol..u all get carried away to easily

I feel like this is still a relevant question: Originally posted by ODG
Haven't read the thread much but maybe a cogent question to ask/answer would be: who has Wally West speed-stolen from that is similar to (or above) the level of Cosmic Thor.

No one. People ignore this though

Originally posted by ODG
I feel like this is still a relevant question:

Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Batmanhattan Who Laughs was time stopped. Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

Originally posted by ODG
Why stop there? Surely, in 100 milliseconds he can kill 100 Cosmic Thors with 1,000,000 punches each. After all, this is based on absolutely no comics whatsoever.

none of this is based on comic book situation, and they are from 2 characters from 2 different companies

this is what the full capacity rule is for

let me ask you a couple questions

1. can flash hurt this thor with punches, if he can, how many punches do you think a full capacity flash can throw in a milisecond?

2. do you think cosmic thor can react to the initial blitze of a full capacity flash

Originally posted by MrMind
none of this is based on comic book situation Bruh, that's my point. If Flash doesn't have a load of on-panel feats where he defeats a comic character on the level of Cosmic Thor with a million punches in a millisecond... why are you trying to argue that result?

Originally posted by ODG
Bruh, that's my point. If Flash doesn't have a load of on-panel feats where he defeats a comic character on the level of Cosmic Thor with a million punches in a millisecond... why are you trying to argue that result?

because full capacity almost never happen with flash, flash rarely goes millions times lightspeed and throw punches that hit like white dwarf star, but he has done so.

so again i ask

1. can flash hurt this thor with punches, if he can, how many punches do you think a full capacity flash can throw in a milisecond?

2. do you think cosmic thor can react to the initial blitze of a full capacity flash

Originally posted by MrMind
because full capacity almost never happen with flash, flash rarely goes millions times lightspeed and throw punches that hit like white dwarf star, but he has done so. Almost never? Yet... we're speaking about a comic character that has thousands of appearances and you cannot even cite to a single on-panel example supporting a result like defeating a Cosmic Thor-level foe with a million punches in a millisecond?

And, yet... the burden of proof is on me to prove otherwise?

This is what's called a negative proof fallacy.

I literally have nothing to argue against other than your imaginary (and unsupported) premise.

I find it increasingly ludicrous that when I try to bring the discussion closer to the comics themselves in these kind of debates... I am somehow the poster who is disregarding the comic character.

Originally posted by ODG
Almost never? Yet... we're speaking about a comic character that has thousands of appearances and you cannot even cite to a single on-panel example supporting a result like defeating a Cosmic Thor-level foe with a million punches in a millisecond?

And, yet... the burden of proof is on me to prove otherwise?

This is what's called a negative proof fallacy.

I literally have nothing to argue against other than your imaginary (and unsupported) premise.

I find it increasingly ludicrous that when I try to bring the discussion closer to the comics themselves in these kind of debates... I am somehow the poster who is disregarding the comic character.

Maybe the argument boils down to scaling

^ Maybe the argument shouldn't start with a no-limit fallacy based on absolutely no on-panel evidence and then clumsily flipped onto naysayers with a limp negative proof fallacy.

But hey, that's just me.

Originally posted by ODG
^ Maybe the argument shouldn't start with a no-limit fallacy based on absolutely no on-panel evidence and then clumsily flipped onto naysayers with a limp negative proof fallacy.

But hey, that's just me.

I get it. I honestly think Flash loses. I can't see him hurting a trans tier level flying brick. I'm referring to the speed steal argument. I think people automatically scale JayvSupes and say in the old man can do it to Clark then Wally can stop an abstract. But like you said he hasn't done anything resembling what's suggested to someone that high up so moot argument

^ Should we unite our powers???

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Unite01.png

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?

No? Unless you are referring to the Speed equation?

Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?
He utilized speed force formula to do it, as he states in this scan

https://ibb.co/kX4n8FM

I don't know why you think(or at least, suggests) he needed other Flash family members help to do it tbh

Is because other Flashes alluded they felt the Speed Force was drained? Then, it is due to Speed Force was nearly burnt out at this time

https://ibb.co/HVBPkpC

That is why Batmanhattan tried to use Dark Multiverse flashes to catch them

https://ibb.co/g7p895H

This actually makes the feat more impressive, since Wally timestopped Batmanhattan, when the Speed Force was at its weakest

Pick a comic up and you'll see what is standard equipment for Thor these days.

Anyway, this thread has Thor with the PC. We saw what he had as standard.

Rune magic is equipment now?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I don't know why you think(or at least, suggests) he needed other Flash family members help to do it tbh I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them. But here, Wally literally "combin the formula and abilities":

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

I interpreted that to be Wally referring to their running. Like a royal we.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosism

Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them. But here, Wally literally "combin the formula and abilities":

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg
No, read it carefully, it states combining the formula and their abilities puts an extra effort to the Speed Force, accelerates its burning.

I.E, Speed Force now needed to provide both of Flash family's powers and the Speed Force Formula power, thus it being burnt out faster

Combing the formula and out abilities puts an extra strain on the Speed Force and---Accelerates the burnout

It actually spelled out to you what Batmanhattan was pushing against

You can feel that monster pushing against the Speed Force Formual
https://i.ibb.co/R95cXN3/5.jpg

Just finished my work, now back to my PC. I think I can elaborate my point further

First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly

https://i.ibb.co/ts6F1kr/8.jpg
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine

And then I think we all agreed that the Speed Force Formula is the thing has timestop attribute and it's a different way tapping into the Speed Force, as it stated in the comic

https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg

Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them.

I also think we agreed that Batmanhatan was timestopped in that scene


Then what he was tried breaking free from/pushing against?

The Speed Force Formula
https://i.ibb.co/R95cXN3/5.jpg

We also have the story multiple times referred the Speed Force was almost burnt out, and when Flashes used their speed/abilities, they put pressure on the Speed Force

https://ibb.co/HVBPkpC
https://ibb.co/9cvv8QP
https://ibb.co/g7p895H

We also see Jay still has his speed after Wally timestopped Batmanhattan, and when he felt exhaustion, he attributed it to the strain of the Speed Force, not just his own Speed Force/abilities

https://ibb.co/q0DrkYY

In summary:

1) The timestop is a property of Speed Force Formula
2) TBWL was timestopped
3) TBWL was pushing against Speed Force Formula
4) Speed Force Formula is a different way to tap into the Speed Force
5) Flashes burning the Speed Force out when they running/using their abilities
6) Jay still has his speed, so it's not like his speedforce was used to merge with SFF to timestop TBWL, and he attributed his exhaustion to the strain on the Speed Force, not just his abilities

So take above all into consideration, the word "combine" in the context is likely to refer the Speed Force now not only needed to provide the energy for Flash Family, but also the Speed Force Formula

That's a whole lot of chatter to avoid reading simple English:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

But yes, let's cite to dictionary.com instead.

Originally posted by ODG
That's a whole lot of chatter to avoid reading simple English:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

Yes, it indeed requires simple english.....combining with some simple reading compreshension

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly

https://i.ibb.co/ts6F1kr/8.jpg
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine



Edit:

Originally posted by ODG

But yes, let's cite to dictionary.com instead.

So what is your reasoning for this?
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998


In summary:

1) The timestop is a property of Speed Force Formula
2) TBWL was timestopped
3) TBWL was pushing against Speed Force Formula
4) Speed Force Formula is a different way to tap into the Speed Force
5) Flashes burning the Speed Force out when they running/using their abilities
6) Jay still has his speed, so it's not like his speedforce was used to merge with SFF to timestop TBWL, and he attributed his exhaustion to the strain on the Speed Force, not just his abilities

Or, let me ask you a simple question, what do you think is the thing that stopped time? And was TBWL timestopped or not?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yes, it indeed requires simple english.....combining with some simple reading compreshension I could disprove your interpretation without torturing the English language. But given your insistent equivocation over a simple panel, I don't see any point to it. I'd just be wasting electrons.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
So what is your reasoning for this?

Or, let me ask you a simple question, what do you think is the thing that stopped time? And was TBWL timestopped or not? Reasoning for what?

The thing that stopped time was Wally using Johnny Quick's Speed Force Formula combined with the Flash family's speedforce. Yes, for several minutes (relative to the Flash family anyway).

Originally posted by ODG
I could disprove your interpretation without torturing the English language. But given your insistent equivocation over a simple panel, I don't see any point to it. I'd just be wasting electrons.

Then disprove it, I mean, you realize there exist different interpretations about that sentence that are different from yours, right?


Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I interpreted that to be Wally referring to their running. Like a royal we.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosism

Originally posted by ODG
Reasoning for what?

The thing that stopped time was Wally using Johnny Quick's Speed Force Formula combined with the Flash family's speedforce. Yes, for several minutes (relative to the Flash family anyway).
Huh? Wally made the timestop statement right before the scan you posted, and he specifically attributed it to the Speed Force Formula, not it combined with Flash family's speedforce.
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Then disprove it, I mean, you realize there exist different interpretations about that sentence that are different from yours, right?

Huh? Wally made the timestop statement right before the scan you posted, and he specifically attributed it to the Speed Force Formula, not it combined with Flash family's speedforce.
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg Can you honestly think of no reason why he might need to do so? Without sarcasm, just take a moment and ponder whether Wally might need to do so.

... except when he did specifically attribute it to the Speed Force Formula combined with Flash family's speedforce:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

Also, personal request from me, please don't stretch the page.

Originally posted by ODG
That's a whole lot of chatter to avoid reading simple English:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

But yes, let's cite to dictionary.com instead. I haven't read the comic, so maybe I'm pulling an h1 here, but it's hard to resist a grammar nerd debate.

The simple English in this panel says that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force.

It does not say that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop.

Those are two separate ideas.

Originally posted by ODG
Can you honestly think of no reason why he might need to do so? Without sarcasm, just take a moment and ponder whether Wally might need to do so.

... except when he did specifically attribute it to the Speed Force Formula combined with Flash family's speedforce:

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

Also, personal request from me, please don't stretch the page.
You seem hanging on your interpretation about the word "combine" without recognizing other interpretations concerning this word

Wally stated he used Speed Force Formula to stop time once before, so if you can prove the last time he was combining other Flash family's speedforce to do so....wait, you actually admitted he doesn't need other Flash family's members to do so
Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them.
So why suddenly Wally needed other Flash family's now?

Originally posted by Smurph
I haven't read the comic, so maybe I'm pulling an h1 here, but it's hard to resist a grammar nerd debate.

The simple English in this panel says that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force.

It does not say that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop.

Those are two separate ideas. I really do not want to equivocate over English. But would you consider the connotation of the term "combining" intimates a merging or a mixing? I suppose this is a rhetorical question because seriously, I find such conversations tortuous. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
You seem hanging on your interpretation about the word "combine" without recognizing other interpretations concerning this word I don't see how I'm the one hanging from a cliff here. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Wally stated he used Speed Force Formula to stop time once before, so if you can prove the last time he was combining other Flash family's speedforce to do so....wait, you actually admitted he doesn't need other Flash family's members to do so

So why suddenly Wally needed other Flash family's now? Ah-ha! Did the light bulb go off?

Can you guys think of a reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?

Originally posted by ODG
I don't see how I'm the one hanging from a cliff here.

Originally posted by ODG
I really do not want to equivocate over English. But would you consider the connotation of the term "combining" intimates a merging or a mixing?

Like hanging on a very specific meaning of a word, and ignoring other interpretations?

For examples
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I interpreted that to be Wally referring to their running. Like a royal we.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nosism
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
No, read it carefully, it states combining the formula and their abilities puts an extra effort to the Speed Force, accelerates its burning.

I.E, Speed Force now needed to provide both of Flash family's powers and the Speed Force Formula power, thus it being burnt out faster

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998

First of all, "combine" this word can be used to refer you do two things simultanesouly

https://i.ibb.co/ts6F1kr/8.jpg
https://dictionary.cambridge.org/us/dictionary/english/combine

Originally posted by Smurph
I haven't read the comic, so maybe I'm pulling an h1 here, but it's hard to resist a grammar nerd debate.

The simple English in this panel says that combination of Flash family powers and the formula puts a strain on the speed force.

It does not say that the combination of Flash family powers and the formula achieved the time stop.

Those are two separate ideas.


And for this part
Originally posted by ODG

Can you guys think of a reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?
So do you admit timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula, not an attribute that results from combining Speed Force Formula and Flash family's Speedforce?

Originally posted by ODG
I really do not want to equivocate over English. But would you consider the connotation of the term "combining" intimates a merging or a mixing? I suppose this is a rhetorical question because seriously, I find such conversations tortuous. I don't see how I'm the one hanging from a cliff here. Ah-ha! Did the light bulb go off?

Can you guys think of a reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time? I have no horse in this race because idgaf about either character or the thread, really.

My two cents are that you're reading intent into the word "combine" as if Wally intentionally added powers together, but another way to read the scene is that Wally used a technique (the formula) that is particularly taxing on the speed force, in the context of a fight where the speed force was already being taxed by the whole Flash fam.

Originally posted by Smurph
I have no horse in this race because idgaf about either character or the thread, really.

My two cents are that you're reading intent into the word "combine" as if Wally intentionally added powers together, but another way to read the scene is that Wally used a technique (the formula) that is particularly taxing on the speed force, in the context of a fight where the speed force was already being taxed by the whole Flash fam.

https://i.postimg.cc/Tw4VXhPq/IMG-20220813-182037.jpg

Already posted it one page ago. And I even put some time to elaborate why I think the latter interpretation is likely right.

But clearly, nobody reads my post

Originally posted by Smurph
I have no horse in this race because idgaf about either character or the thread, really. I didn't think I had a horse in this thread either. I feel like I'm being accused of lowballing Wally or Johnny Quick's Speed Force Formula now.
Originally posted by Smurph
My two cents are that you're reading intent into the word "combine" as if Wally intentionally added powers together, but another way to read the scene is that Wally used a technique (the formula) that is particularly taxing on the speed force, in the context of a fight where the speed force was already being taxed by the whole Flash fam. I... I really hate this. But, ok. I can tell you're not being disingenous. So, let me take a few minutes to set up this exercise:

If Wally had said this or this, does that bring you closer or further away from the interpretation I am suggesting?

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula_mixing.jpg

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula_MERGING.jpg

Because, I am suggesting that "combining" as it was used here suggested an affirmative action. Not a passive state.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Like hanging on a very spefic meaning of a word, and ignoring other interpretations?

For examples I didn't come here to debate the connotation of the word, combine. Tortured propositions over the English language just take the conversation further from the simple on-panel presentation of the comic. So forgive me if I continue to dismiss the notion that Wally couldn't possibly be referring to him combining Johnny Quick's Speed Force Formula w/ the Flash family's speedforce.
Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
And for this part

So do you admit timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula, not an attribute that results from combining Speed Force Formula and Flash family's Speedforce? I thought for a second there, you had it. The light bulb didn't go off?

Before proceeding to your straw-man, please just pause and ponder it for a moment. Can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?

Originally posted by ODG
I didn't come here to debate the connotation of the word, combine. Tortured propositions over the English language just take the conversation further from the simple on-panel presentation of the comic. So forgive me if I continue to dismiss the notion that Wally couldn't possibly be referring to him combining Johnny Quick's Speed Force Formula w/ the Flash family's speedforce.

Ok, if you want simple on panel, straight forward statement, you have this

Wally used the Speed Force Formula, which he used to stop time once before
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg

He didn't say he combined it with other Flash family members' Speedforce to stop time, did he?

Originally posted by ODG
I thought for a second there, you had it. The light bulb didn't go off?

Before proceeding to your straw-man, please just pause and ponder it for a moment. Can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?

What I'm strawmaning? I explained to you one page ago your interpretation isn't the only way to look at that sentence. You just keep saying I avoid reading simple English, which proved to be not so simple as you think at all?

No one is saying that Wally didn't combine/merge/mix the two.

What is being argued is that the mixing resulted in an added strain on the SF, NOT that it resulted in a timestop.

A few pages prior, Wally explains that the SF is strained, with every superfast step the Flash family takes.

He uses the Formula.

Time stop ensues.

Wallace experiences a drain. Why?

The formula usage PLUS the Flash family's running, combined, is damaging the SF further, which is why Wallace feels a drain/like a drain.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Ok, if you want simple on panel, straight forward statement, you have this

Wally used the Speed Force Formula, which he used to stop time once before
https://i.ibb.co/TtQ1rVN/6.jpg

He didn't say he combined it with other Flash family members' Speedforce to stop time, did he? He did say he combined it. In his very next sentence where he explains what' just happened. But then we have to torture English to ignore the implication. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
What I'm strawmaning? I explained to you one page ago your interpretation isn't the only way to look at that sentence. You just keep saying I avoid reading simple English, which proved to be not so simple as you think at all? FFS, focus: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time? There's no reason to ignore this request. You kept demanding I disprove your conclusion, after all. Somehow, I've got the burden of proof but whatever. Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No one is saying that Wally didn't combine/merge/mix the two. Err, yes, it is being very much said. Why this is so hotly contested, who knows?

Both qwerty and Smurph said he combined the two though.

Baby Jesus wept. I hate these sort of discussions...

https://thumbs.gfycat.com/LankyGlossyIndianspinyloach-max-1mb.gif

Breaking down the use of the English language invariably leads to the discussion itself breaking down.

Lmao.

All I'm saying is, we all agree he combined the two.

You are arguing he combined the two to stop time.

They're arguing he combined the two which resulted in Wallace feeling the extra drain.

Originally posted by ODG
He did say he combined it. In his very next sentence where he explains what' just happened.
Where? Oh, do you mean the next panel when Wallace experiences a drain and Wally makes the combining statement?

Again, do you realize your interpretation isn't the only one to read it, right?


Originally posted by ODG
FFS, focus: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?

Oh, I'm focusing, thus I asked you do you think timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula or not?

Originally posted by ODG
There's no reason to ignore this request. You kept demanding I disprove your conclusion, after all. Somehow, I've got the burden of proof but whatever.
Huh? You are the one who made "there maybe exists some reason for Wally to combine the SpeedForce of other Flash Family's to time stop, and it somehow will help my argument" thing

So it should be you who give us the proof and reasoning

Yes, you're the one who got the burden of proof because you inital evidence proven to be not as solid as you think it is. I.E, you need other proofs to back up your stance

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Where? Oh, do you mean the next panel when Wallace experiences a drain and Wally makes the combining statement?

Again, do you realize your interpretation isn't the only one to read it, right? No need to waste electrons begging the question.

I do understand that a person can torture simple English and have different interpretations. The motivation behind why seems so pointless but, well, there you have it. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Oh, I'm focusing, thus I asked you do you think timestop is an attribute of Speed Force Formula or not? Keep avoiding the question I posed to you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you already understand where I am going with this and are just hoping to stretch out the conversation to avoid confronting it. But I don't think it will reflect well on how youOriginally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Huh? You are the one who made "there maybe exists some reason for Wally to combine the SpeedForce of other Flash Family's to time stop, and it somehow will help my argument" thing

So it should be you who give us the proof and reasoning

Yes, you're the one who got the burden of proof because you inital evidence proven to be not as solid as you think it is. I.E, you need other proofs to back up your stance Yes, I did. And you cannot simply bring yourself to think of a simple reason why. Are you really trying to pretend it is beyond your ability?

Given that you're the one trying to argue Wally definitely was not combining the Flash family's speedforce with Johnny Quick's formula, I really don't think you can pass that baton to me. But it doesn't matter if it's "fair" or not because I can actually disprove your conclusion.

So answer the question: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time? If your answer is a simple "no", well then at least I can conclude you're certainly committed to this farce.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Lmao.

All I'm saying is, we all agree he combined the two. Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
No, read it carefully, it states combining the formula and their abilities puts an extra effort to the Speed Force, accelerates its burning.

I.E, Speed Force now needed to provide both of Flash family's powers and the Speed Force Formula power, thus it being burnt out faster

Combing the formula and out abilities puts an extra strain on the Speed Force and---Accelerates the burnout

It actually spelled out to you what Batmanhattan was pushing against

You can feel that monster pushing against the Speed Force Formual
https://i.ibb.co/R95cXN3/5.jpg
I thought he did, a couple of pages ago.

^ Yes, well. qwertyuiop1998 is using English differently, you see.

EDIT: You page-breaking, sonuvabiscuit...

Originally posted by ODG
No need to waste electrons begging the question.

I do understand that a person can torture simple English and have different interpretations. The motivation behind why seems so pointless but, well, there you have it.
Yes, it is simple English, which is why I'm so frustrated you can't understand it, despite me and many others have spent time to explain this to you

Originally posted by ODG
Keep avoiding the question I posed to you. I will give you the benefit of the doubt that you already understand where I am going with this and are just hoping to stretch out the conversation to avoid confronting it. But I don't think it will reflect well on how you
Originally posted by ODG
Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.

Ok, let me get this clear. You used this scan to prove that Wally timestopped Batmanhattan is a result from combining SFF and their abilities
Originally posted by ODG
Didn't he utilize the Speedforce of the Flash family to do so?
Originally posted by ODG
I never said he needed other Flash family members to do it. After all, the only other time he did it, he didn't need them. But here, Wally literally "combin the formula and abilities":

https://hosting.photobucket.com/images/oo326/OneDumbG0/Speed_Formula.jpg

However, I, DS, and Smurph all pointed out this could be referring to the strain they put on SF, not the timestop

Thus, your stance isn't back up by a solid evidence and you still have the burden to prove it, understand?

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Yes, it is simple English, which is why I'm so frustrated you can't understand it, despite me and many others have spent time to explain this to you

Ok, let me get this clear. You used this scan to prove that Wally timestopped Batmanhattan is a result from combining SFF and their abilities

However, I, DS, and Smurph all pointed out this could be referring to the strain they put on SF, not the timestop Between you and I, we already disagree how simple English ought to be treated. I understand that's the only leg you have to stand on but, again, I'm willing to go beyond that. Yet, you continue to disengage. How many times can I ask you to focus? One more time it seems. Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
Thus, your stance isn't back up by a solid evidence and you still have the burden to prove it, understand? Neither is your's? You're just applying your own interpretation to how Wally used the simple word, "combining," and pretending that your interpretation is automatically right and overrides my own interpretation. Now, I don't just have to prove my interpretation, I have to disprove your's. Not the first time this has ever happened on KMC. I don't think my interpretation is unfair, much less wrong. In fact, based on the colloquial use and simple connotation of that term itself, I think my interpretation is more than fair. But, no, according to you, my grasp of the English language should be mocked. But, again, I'll do so if you can just focus on that.

Whatever. Proceed to answer this question and let's bring this inane conversation to an end, please: can you think of any reason why Wally might need to combine the Flash family's speedforce with the Speed Force Formula this time as opposed to the first time?

yes/no

Originally posted by ODG
Sadly, no, I don't think qwertyuiop1998 agrees with that.
Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I thought he did, a couple of pages ago.
Originally posted by ODG
^ Yes, well. qwertyuiop1998 is using English differently, you see.

EDIT: You page-breaking, sonuvabiscuit...

That basically summarized the frustration I got from this discussion

ODG:"Look, I made a stance that is untenable"
Me:"Actually, this proof is not as solid as you think it is, here is why......"

*Spent a lot of time to explain why it isn't solid*

ODG:"No, you just don't understand simple English!!!!"
Me:

"https://i.ibb.co/MDgkPsK/3.jpg"

I can answer - no.

He didn't need to combine the other Flashes abilities with the formula to stop time. He could have simply done it with the formula alone.

The sentence about the combination from Wally is not talking about the time stop, it's a direct reply to Wallace asking why he feels like a drain.