Click HERE to see this thread with all of the graphics, features, and links.

Firestorm is Ronnie Jason composite


who wins

cis off full capacity

Surfer stomps.

Speed kills.

Full capacity Firestorm triggers big bang

The Surfer can actually outpace the destruction of entire realities.

FS is capable of winning.

If firestorm still has the restriction on transmuting organic matter than Suffer should take it comfortably. If not it can go either way and becomes a question of who transmuts who first.

Thought this was Firelord vs Surfer... but okay it's Firestorm not as familiar with him.

Could be kind of an interesting fight. But yes if FS can't directly affect Surfer because of his limitations then Surfer has a major advantage in that area, though he doesn't often use his MM powers offensively. Surfer I think has the better straight up firepower in terms of blasts etc.

Trying to remember any good matter manipulators vs Surfer. That Avengers issue with Molecule Man vs Surfer comes to mind.

https://s8d4.turboimg.net/t/78975630_E0D2C599-F693-4CE4-B806-E9828CB22A19.jpeg

Originally posted by Ambient
https://s8d4.turboimg.net/t/78975630_E0D2C599-F693-4CE4-B806-E9828CB22A19.jpeg
What's that supposed to show? Firestorm is a far better matter manipulator

Originally posted by Ambient
https://s8d4.turboimg.net/t/78975630_E0D2C599-F693-4CE4-B806-E9828CB22A19.jpeg

It never has to come down to a contest of matter manipulation though. There is a very large gap in speed between these two.

Originally posted by abhilegend
What's that supposed to show? Firestorm is a far better matter manipulator
that's in respond to Basilik Abhi, a better example to organic matter manipulation and no Surfer is by far better matter manipulator than Firestorm. fact

Surfer's also just a far faster matter manipulator.

ie: https://imgur.io/a/KXYvT9p

^ I keep forgetting about that fight. God Cable was the craze back then. But it was not undeserved. And, well... Silver Surfer wasn't no slouch in that fight either.

Originally posted by Ambient
that's in respond to Basilik Abhi, a better example to organic matter manipulation and no Surfer is by far better matter manipulator than Firestorm. fact


In your dreams. Call me when Surfer can transmute theoretical mass.

https://imgur.io/a/08sHSyO

Originally posted by Smurph
Surfer's also just a far faster matter manipulator.

ie: https://imgur.io/a/KXYvT9p
Uh-huh. Surely Cable was doing nothing, eh?

Originally posted by abhilegend

Gee, I wonder who's more powerful.

Not Superman.

Originally posted by Enzeru
Not Superman.


Sentry fans don't get to talk.

Originally posted by abhilegend


Uh-huh. Surely Cable was doing nothing, eh? It's a shared feat but that just means they were both working extremely fast. It's not like Cable could have made Surfer faster.

Originally posted by Smurph
It's a shared feat but that just means they were both working extremely fast. It's not like Cable could have made Surfer faster.
The keyword is shared feat. Firestorm once made the sun and Earth tremble by simply colliding with Brimstone, that doesn't mean he could simply oneshot him.

https://i.postimg.cc/0MZDYpkx/7931972-0199734322-HLAvddrt85-KDg-VUZbum-CVPv-k-B7-Mq-Du8m0-RGDL-Ge-Y39ft-SM89u-Mf-HZAUqn-IUPHu-S-SYUo46r9-IZ-s160.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/87rR2JHB/7931973-2331055034-HUUXJUwugu-Zai-GOp-ZFh2itna-J6u-Usxp-NENUmtyi-PMg-Flgx-Qkkh-Ab1-RTSSyj-PQFvv1gezge2-Dn-XUV-s160.jpg

Originally posted by abhilegend
The keyword is shared feat. Firestorm once made the sun and Earth tremble by simply colliding with Brimstone, that doesn't mean he could simply oneshot him.

https://i.postimg.cc/0MZDYpkx/7931972-0199734322-HLAvddrt85-KDg-VUZbum-CVPv-k-B7-Mq-Du8m0-RGDL-Ge-Y39ft-SM89u-Mf-HZAUqn-IUPHu-S-SYUo46r9-IZ-s160.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/87rR2JHB/7931973-2331055034-HUUXJUwugu-Zai-GOp-ZFh2itna-J6u-Usxp-NENUmtyi-PMg-Flgx-Qkkh-Ab1-RTSSyj-PQFvv1gezge2-Dn-XUV-s160.jpg The speed isn't shared though???

Do you understand that?

Not to mention Surfer wasn't actually able to stabilise the sun on his own, he had to absorb extra energy to do it. Still lying about it?

Why was Cable giving Surfer speed???

Originally posted by Smurph
The speed isn't shared though???

Do you understand that?
No, just how much matter manipulation is done by either Cable or Surfer.

Anyway, Surfer is hardly going to be able to blitz Firestorm if that's what you want to say.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Why was Cable giving Surfer speed???
Huh?

I wanted to say what I said, which is that Surfer is a much faster matter/energy manipulator

Originally posted by Smurph
I wanted to say what I said, which is that Surfer is a much faster matter/energy manipulator
Meh, one feat is hardly enough to say something like that. Firestorm can transmute energy blasts mid flight, Surfer is hardly faster than that.

lol what

Cable and Surfer vaporized a populated island at an atomic level and instantaneously reversed the explosions and damage. Then they did the same thing to the pacific fleet. While fighting each other.

No need to lowball Surfer's speed.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Not to mention Surfer wasn't actually able to stabilise the sun on his own, he had to absorb extra energy to do it. Still lying about it?

Low ball at its finest.

Read the comics Abhi.

Comics are fricken' stupid.
That's why we love 'em, right?
...
...
...
RIGHT?

We be nerdz 😆

Originally posted by Smurph
lol what

Cable and Surfer vaporized a populated island at an atomic level and instantaneously reversed the explosions and damage. Then they did the same thing to the pacific fleet. While fighting each other.

No need to lowball Surfer's speed.
Vaporized an island? It was pacific Fleet.

https://i.postimg.cc/t1k9MPZq/image.jpg

John's Firestorm is universal, and stated to be the most powerful hero on earth. I'd say he's overall more powerful than Surfer.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Vaporized an island? It was pacific Fleet.

https://i.postimg.cc/t1k9MPZq/image.jpg Yes, that's scan #2.

Scan #1, they're doing the same thing but to Providence.

Originally posted by Smurph
I wanted to say what I said, which is that Surfer is a much faster matter/energy manipulator

I wasn't sure what it being a shared feat had to do with anything. They were both reforming everything instantaneously, so unless Cable was lending Surfer speed, Surfer was doing his reforming on his own steam.

Originally posted by Smurph
Yes, that's scan #2.

Scan #1, they're doing the same thing but to Providence.
Cable never said anything about reassembling Providence.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I wasn't sure what it being a shared feat had to do with anything. They were both reforming everything instantaneously, so unless Cable was lending Surfer speed, Surfer was doing his reforming on his own steam. Precisely.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Cable never said anything about reassembling Providence. what?

Reread the comic

Originally posted by Smurph
what?

Reread the comic
Do post the scan where he says he's reassembling Providence. He says reassembling US fleet was too much for him.

Abhi, you bore me.

Wild Carver out of nowhere!

Anyways, regardless of what Firestorm theoretically could or could not do, he still loses to Surfer, who is incalculably faster than him and could kill him billions of ways before he can even react, with CIS off.

So Surfer stomps.

Originally posted by Glorificus
Anyways, regardless of what Firestorm theoretically could or could not do, he still loses to Surfer, who is incalculably faster than him and could kill him billions of ways before he can even react, with CIS off.

So Surfer stomps.

FS is FTL and can react at those speeds.

Against you I mean 😅

Originally posted by abhilegend
Do post the scan where he says he's reassembling Providence. He says reassembling US fleet was too much for him. lol abhi this isn't an important point but it's bizarre that you're going to h1 lengths to try to cast doubt on the feat.

They approach the US fleet in the second scan. They hit it in the third scan.

But in the first scan, they are vaporizing an island and reassembling it (per the dialogue - give it a read). Tell me: which island is that?

I mean, the point here is Surfer's speed at matter manipulation.

He could be doing it to an island, a ship, hell,how about a group of guys.....main point is that it's still pretty fast. And I haven't seen Firestorm do anything on that scale.

Even if it is a shared feat, which.....means what, I don't know, but Abhi made a point of it.

Ooooo a Firestorm flame fest! Firestorm can do the usual speed feets of transmuting falling buildings, trapping flying foes etc. But nothing on that speed level. Truth is Surfer is a beast, I still believe Superman has the tools to beat him but most other heroes don't. His highs are literally biblical giving life to a machine and bringing a deer back from the dead ala Starman the film. If Norrin did not change personalities faster than Wendell Crum and wasn't for a Scientist what Goku is for MENSA he could beat almost any other hero in moments.

Would be a good battle regardless of who wins.

Originally posted by tkitna
Would be a good battle regardless of who wins. True enuff pal!

Originally posted by Smurph
lol abhi this isn't an important point but it's bizarre that you're going to h1 lengths to try to cast doubt on the feat.

They approach the US fleet in the second scan. They hit it in the third scan.

But in the first scan, they are vaporizing an island and reassembling it (per the dialogue - give it a read). Tell me: which island is that?
Where did they said that they vaporized an island to begin with?

https://s8d1.turboimg.net/t/79121439_A182EF7B-32FD-4454-A872-6FABFB258698.jpeg

Not that Smurph needs any help but I have that comics handy in my comp.

You going to ignore that too Abhi?

and the word "vaporizing" is in the first scan that I posted.

Just read the words on the page, Abhi.

Originally posted by Smurph


and the word "vaporizing" is in the first scan that I posted.

Just read the words on the page, Abhi.

I have no horse in this race and probably off-topic subject, but the scan in the imgur site seems very blurry on my PC

I did find the words though, but I'm worried is this problem just me? Should I change my VPN?

https://i.ibb.co/xgS3Hwj/14.jpg

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I have no horse in this race and probably off-topic subject, but the scan in the imgur site seems very blurry on my PC

I did find the words though, but I'm worried is this problem just me? Should I change my VPN?

https://i.ibb.co/xgS3Hwj/14.jpg oh, huh, weird. Shows up very clear on my phone.

In case it's blurry for Abhi, the dialogue says:

"Location?"

"Flying over--no, wait--flying through Providence"

"Casualties?"

"None."

"How--all that power they're spitting out--?"

"I--well, it seems--they're vaporizing everything around them, sir--and putting it back together again at the same time!"

Emphasis in original. So, like I've been saying... they were vaporizing a populated island and instantaneously reversing the explosions and damage, as if it never happened. Then they did the same thing to the US pacific fleet.

Originally posted by qwertyuiop1998
I have no horse in this race and probably off-topic subject, but the scan in the imgur site seems very blurry on my PC

I did find the words though, but I'm worried is this problem just me? Should I change my VPN?

https://i.ibb.co/xgS3Hwj/14.jpg Check out Cable and Deadpool #10 for the full issue. Originally posted by Smurph
oh, huh, weird. Shows up very clear on my phone. I also had the same problem, weirdly enough.

Anyhow, so they pass through the Providence vaporizing everything around them with a pretty big radius from what's seen, then they use their matter manipulation to put it back together. Since abhi is caught up in semantics this doesn't seem to go anywhere, and Galan doesn't care about Firestorm anymore, I figured I'd post something here, too.

https://i.ibb.co/dWgW36V/OEXx-Sk92-IYJFo-MFg4-Auki063jya-ME3wmscz7-HNo-GQUqe4sslp-TBc-XGq-IMVF-p-CG4k-Pxsu-Os-Js75i-A-s1600-r.jpg https://i.ibb.co/yn8ccpd/Irt-Rvw-CYXp3-BKTuw7-Eu-DYBc-EYn-KZu-Kb-MKe2b-Ie-Ow6-Jsel36-if-Dw083-NH-NLn-FK-tosy-BC8zixg-s1600-rh.jpg https://i.ibb.co/9Nwd4CM/6-ABbp-YX4f-Jer-K9r-GOz2-YSc3-CMGH6-UDYRit-GRJc6uove-R7-W7-Qsf-G17-yn-Ov-Fp-Gq-TKh-Xms-SId-AFMHtg-A.jpg

Firestorm stops a large bomb after it's detonated by thinking fast and transmutates the energy/blast radius to save people caught in it

What do you think?

Originally posted by Smurph
Nice

Similarly a large-scale, on-the-fly, matter + energy manip feat - but I think it demonstrates the difference in speed between the two characters. Captain Atom and FS worked together to contain the blast area to the swamp, saving Atom's friends who were seemingly just outside the swamp (per the dialogue on the first and last page).

Cable and SS actually destroyed buildings and ships with people inside them and instantly reversed the damage leaving no casualties. And, they did it while fighting each other, so presumably pretty distracted.

Finally, FS notes that he had to think fast to turn the explosion into snow. In comparison, SS didn't just reflexively think of a random object to turn the explosions into, but instead (working with Cable) put the fleet and buildings back together again at an atomic level (per Cable's dialogue).

They're similar enough feats for comparison's sake, but SS's implies a much higher degree of super speed, imo Yeah it does, Firestorm has done a few explosion to Roses type shit before but nothing with the complexity of the Cable and Surfer feat which is on a par with Supes and the moon because these are living bloody people being restored.

Originally posted by Smurph
Nice

Similarly a large-scale, on-the-fly, matter + energy manip feat - but I think it demonstrates the difference in speed between the two characters. Captain Atom and FS worked together to contain the blast area to the swamp, saving Atom's friends who were seemingly just outside the swamp (per the dialogue on the first and last page).

Cable and SS actually destroyed buildings and ships with people inside them and instantly reversed the damage leaving no casualties. And, they did it while fighting each other, so presumably pretty distracted.

Finally, FS notes that he had to think fast to turn the explosion into snow. In comparison, SS didn't just reflexively think of a random object to turn the explosions into, but instead (working with Cable) put the fleet and buildings back together again at an atomic level (per Cable's dialogue).

They're similar enough feats for comparison's sake, but SS's implies a much higher degree of super speed, imo Heh, I'm the opposite, I think Firestorm's feat was faster , while Surfer's is more impressive in terms of matter-manipulation versatility .

It's the image of Surfer and Cable going through the ship that sways me. Except for the explosion, it looks as though they phase through the thing. So the "sundering it at the atomic level and putting it back together again" happens all at the same time in that one panel /shrug

Explosion to water or every cell, organelle, and associated chemicals put back exactly as they were...

Originally posted by Smurph
It's the image of Surfer and Cable going through the ship that sways me. Except for the explosion, it looks as though they phase through the thing. So the "sundering it at the atomic level and putting it back together again" happens all at the same time in that one panel /shrug It's hard to tell, I'd lean towards them going through it, trashing it as debris explodes , and then it being 'reversed' as they put the pieces back. Either way, I don't think this is a quickdraw or anything, even if I think Firestorm would be first - I just wanted to put something for Firestorm here, since....well, yeah. That type of thread.

It's actually really interesting to compare their matter manipulation abilities . Firestorm has more blunt matter manipulation while Surfer has more expertise . Helps that one has cosmic awareness while the other is based, many times, on high school chemistry classes.

Agree with Phil. CA makes surfer more verse in higher end matter manipulation which FS lacks.

Like this for example.

Fusing 2 giants stars together and his contribution Is cosmic awareness.

https://s8d5.turboimg.net/t/79123530_12CFEA18-DADB-4C48-ABB7-A1FB5DB4EC49.jpeg

https://s8d5.turboimg.net/t/79123531_43587B01-F7F7-49DB-87C7-3D02361D22CF.jpeg

https://s8d5.turboimg.net/t/79123532_C7763C53-1DCD-447A-9593-DE7FD1B15898.jpeg

The question how fast do u think this took place?

Surfer ft is more impressive

Originally posted by Old Man Whirly!
yeah 1 is X yhe other is 30 trillion cells per person put back to function as they were before being torn apart. This is matter manipulation as reality warping 8n honesty I wouldn't call it reality warping, it's more similar to magic from certain points of view. It's simply matter of willing something to happen and having the power to implement it, no matter how complex.

Firestorm has recreated a person from glass by using matter manipulation and wanting it really hard:

https://i.ibb.co/LZH7S2H/Ms-UM4lo-PBEGDmau-O-Dcf2-Eim-F1-MY6co-Acpl-VTq2-Cj-Hpse-Wk-RTGrm-Wx2m-ZR7h-KIG9bo78-CA5rpxt1w-XHd-Rd.jpg https://i.ibb.co/z58gK2R/2em-Ik-Gqen-Hyd-Z-Hozg1houc-Jk8-Ub-QIt8-Sgf-Ok-RNznpcf-Wcl5e35h2c6wt-Y-4-Hl-ESv-l-J5-HAzltzez-A2cc-H.jpg https://i.ibb.co/Ytw2TNj/Svmh-XIOn-Uc-Kw-Qu-COZn-PWy-Kdsip-Hg982a6-XQ-a-BGq-NN8-HZVKpo-Zq1nci-RICYcm-Zj-SJLNXWDqj-Qh-X5o-EJDu.jpg

Poof. Magic.

Where something like cosmic awareness helps is in, for example, receiving the knowledge regarding the problem/issue at hand, and then you just will it into existence using matter manipulation. Its usefulness in matches like this is dubious , but it's a cool thing to have for general comic book-y situations.

Surfer gets turned into salt.

"trying to argue"

ODG has some notes for me to work on

^ Not what I meant at all, but...

https://y.yarn.co/a8e682a5-6a59-4edf-a277-e6d0dfd41f4b_text.gif

jockey

Originally posted by Ambient
Agree with Phil. CA makes surfer more verse in higher end matter manipulation which FS lacks.

Like this for example.

Fusing 2 giants stars together and his contribution Is cosmic awareness.

https://s8d5.turboimg.net/t/79123530_12CFEA18-DADB-4C48-ABB7-A1FB5DB4EC49.jpeg

https://s8d5.turboimg.net/t/79123531_43587B01-F7F7-49DB-87C7-3D02361D22CF.jpeg

https://s8d5.turboimg.net/t/79123532_C7763C53-1DCD-447A-9593-DE7FD1B15898.jpeg

The question how fast do u think this took place?
Ronan is better matter manipulator than Surfer because its his matter manipulation that fuses the suns.

Originally posted by Ambient
https://s8d1.turboimg.net/t/79121439_A182EF7B-32FD-4454-A872-6FABFB258698.jpeg

Not that Smurph needs any help but I have that comics handy in my comp.

You going to ignore that too Abhi? Originally posted by Smurph


and the word "vaporizing" is in the first scan that I posted.

Just read the words on the page, Abhi. Originally posted by Smurph
In case it's blurry for Abhi, the dialogue says:

"Location?"

"Flying over--no, wait--flying through Providence"

"Casualties?"

"None."

"How--all that power they're spitting out--?"

"I--well, it seems--they're vaporizing everything around them, sir--and putting it back together again at the same time!"

Emphasis in original. So, like I've been saying... they were vaporizing a populated island and instantaneously reversing the explosions and damage, as if it never happened. Then they did the same thing to the US pacific fleet.
Apparently "tore apart" the island and "vaporising" are the same thing now.

I mean come on, I never said that they didn't do damage, just your insistence that the island was vaporized and reconstituted when it was apparently "tore apart".

I used the word vaporize because I posted a scan that used the word vaporize.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Ronan is better matter manipulator than Surfer because its his matter manipulation that fuses the suns.

When then both are better matter manipulators than Firestorm.

Also Surfer couldn't even reform a chasm in Rocky mountains.

https://i.postimg.cc/s1zhMtpV/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/JtQBZPqj/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/w7TRVLfZ/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/mtXz6kKD/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/jDDwVKrh/image.jpg

Surfer has been shown to have limits regarding matter manipulation, Firestorm has never been shown with a limit.

Even without Stein? A lot of his best feats were done with the professor's mind.

Stein only gives the knowledge, the power of the firestorm matrix isn't lesser without him.

Good thing I never said the Firestorm matrix was lessened in power here.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The last part is vastly overlooked.

The thread has Ronnie and Jason as a composite. No Martin Stein, no Gehenna. We're essentially dealing with a Carver High School alumnus here.

Though the 'poof, it's magic' aspect of matter manipulation bypasses knowledge most of the time and if they want visualize something hard enough it happens -- but there's certainly an implicit difference in versatility when the universe essentially gives you the knowledge of how certain things work and you then will them to work like you're told.

Originally posted by abhilegend
I think this is a better comparison between both

https://i.postimg.cc/mcDMcXnK/image.jpg

Surfer vs Molecule Man.

*snip*

Molecule Man vs Firestorm. Originally posted by abhilegend
Also Surfer couldn't even reform a chasm in Rocky mountains.

*snip*

Surfer has been shown to have limits regarding matter manipulation, Firestorm has never been shown with a limit. He certainly has limits, and they've been shown time and time again, regarding both power usage and versatility usage. There's some things that are beyond him. I mean, he can heal people's injuries but he cannot bring them back after they're deadly damaged:

https://i.ibb.co/KjNcKm9/RCO010.jpg https://i.ibb.co/pnKkQMN/RCO015.jpg https://i.ibb.co/D7LdCvg/RCO016.jpg https://i.ibb.co/VHqD988/RCO017.jpg

etc.

But I don't think it's a matter of whether or not one can beat the other -- they both have various options, it's a matter of what they'd each do, when, then how they'd react to what the other does, etc.

Options can, of course, be analyzed in a vacuum. Since you brought up Molecule Man, he was quickly using up power transmutating dirt and then was drained to near death by being immersed in it with stopped molecular movement:

https://i.ibb.co/G9K2JTL/YBd1-y-Onr-Rf6g-Q9-Hk-Qd-AYGo-EDkz1-BNe3-Skg-hkp-EZb-E1-B5-BFLSLZu-L24abzu8z-USs-Nxi-TLGp2-O2-FKVJTq.jpghttps://i.ibb.co/wNzbrZn/Jd-W6-V3x-Ww-TD7afic-QAy-Wwac-SRTj-Cme-AHHBV7e5yb5-Fr-Ww-TQj45-VOJJWe-Xqpecs-Xz2k-ELnk-RBjc8spce-V4.jpg

Which is exactly what Firestorm has already done, to Killer Frost -- drain her by surrounding her in stopped molecular movement:

https://i.ibb.co/9p1jDX3/uED5zuo.jpg https://i.ibb.co/171VGrk/vXWO2xx.jpg

Given Surfer's history, pushing him until he runs out of power, or directly draining him could be a tactic Firestorm uses. Direct transmutation is tricky -- you'd have to go into the properties of Surfer's skin and stuff .

I'd give Surfer a slight majority due to parity on most abilities . The board could also be useful as a second combatant, assuming they nullify each other's energy abilities. It can be countered with phasing, of course, on Firestorm's part. Or destroyed but, then, it can also be reformed. It's a ***-for-tat since they're the Spiderman meme, is what I'm essentially getting at at, and I think Surfer's experience with his powers trumps Firestorm's young hosts.

Firestorm is a frat boy in a Ferrari, while Surfer is a good driver in a BMW, imo.

Yeah, Surfer fans like to think he's a walking No Limit Fallacy and has never been shown to have limits.

I would take Surfer for a slight majority too. But to say he's flat out better matter manipulator than ****ing Firestorm? Dude, even Ronan is better than Surfer lol.

nice convo. i agree.

Every physical law is literally broken by Surfer.

Originally posted by leonidas
nice convo. i agree. Leo!

What's up? All good?

No one is touching Surfer with matter manipulation now this days when his capable of finding himself of the reality gem.

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136684_BA5CB87C-5B21-4711-831A-2CD21E1256C8.jpeg

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136685_EA0A4FBA-71DA-47A1-81EC-A3FD7C671F19.jpeg

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136686_8806B25A-5088-4702-A2E6-3374F5A8BF2F.jpeg

Reality manipulation > matter manipulation.

Originally posted by Ambient
No one is touching Surfer with matter manipulation now this days when his capable of finding himself of the reality gem.

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136684_BA5CB87C-5B21-4711-831A-2CD21E1256C8.jpeg

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136685_EA0A4FBA-71DA-47A1-81EC-A3FD7C671F19.jpeg

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136686_8806B25A-5088-4702-A2E6-3374F5A8BF2F.jpeg

Reality manipulation > matter manipulation.
Lolwut?

Originally posted by abhilegend
Did you miss the part where Firestorm brought the person back. Surfer can't even transmute back Human Torch when he was mutated by magic.

Range=/=power. Not to mention Surfer has been transmuted himself.

https://i.postimg.cc/q6nJ1sps/RCO026.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/hh7t4BVX/RCO028.jpg
intact he was able to reverse the process he did to them but in pieces he couldn't put them back hence the limitation.

You do know that's Surfer version 2.0 right, that just shows you the extent of his power and like I said his character developed over the years that now his able to fight off reality manipulation and not once but a couple of times.

/\/\/\ that was the past and this is the present.

https://s8d8.turboimg.net/t/79138359_89FD5896-25D9-4970-AF02-D7C39205FED4.jpeg

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136685_EA0A4FBA-71DA-47A1-81EC-A3FD7C671F19.jpeg

both have limits but at the end of it all Surfer just has a much more higher end feat.

Surfers got the range and the power.

Originally posted by Ambient
intact he was able to reverse the process he did to them but in pieces he couldn't put them back hence the limitation.

You do know that's Surfer version 2.0 right, that just shows you the extent of his power and like I said his character developed over the years that now his able to fight off reality manipulation and not once but a couple of times.

/\/\/\ that was the past and this is the present.

https://s8d8.turboimg.net/t/79138359_89FD5896-25D9-4970-AF02-D7C39205FED4.jpeg

https://s8d2.turboimg.net/t/79136685_EA0A4FBA-71DA-47A1-81EC-A3FD7C671F19.jpeg

both have limits but at the end of it all Surfer just has a much more higher end feat.

Surfers got the range and the power.
What are you blabbering about?

First scan is from SS v4? What's even happened there?

Surfer overcame reality manipulation? Good for him, how does it matter for transmutation?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
The last part is vastly overlooked.

The thread has Ronnie and Jason as a composite. No Martin Stein, no Gehenna. We're essentially dealing with a Carver High School alumnus here. So what are Jason/Ronnie's best matter transmutation feats? Are they better or worse than Jason/Stein's?

Because I think we all agree that with current versions, the Jason/Stein Firestorm cannot affect anything organic unless they have prep and concentration. It's even worse when they're distracted or in a fight.

While despite Surfer's varying/conflicting matter manipulation feats, Surfer can affect organic matter whether or not he has prep or concentration, even during a knock down, drag out fight with a peer opposing him.

So, is the Jason/Ronnie composite superior to the Jason/Stein composite?

Ohh and I never said surfer has reality manipulation powers or can manipulate reality, what I said was his matter manipulation is borders that shown via when he took himself out of 616 universe.

But what stops the Surfer from sending his board speeding towards Firestorm at multiple times the speed of light cutting him in two? Is there anything that would nullify this from happening?

"cis off full capacity"

Originally posted by Smurph
"cis off full capacity"

but in the flash vs thor thread odg said it has to happen in comics for it to count

even though it's cis off full capacity

or do marvel fans just pick and choose whatever suit their agenda?

Originally posted by MrMind
but in the flash vs thor thread odg said it has to happen in comics for it to count

even though it's cis off full capacity

or do marvel fans just pick and choose whatever suit their agenda? i'm not ODG, so... if he says something and I say something different, that's not an example of one person picking and choosing their stance??

but sure, is that the standard we're all settled on? in a cis off, full capacity thread, behaviour should still reflect the comics? jockey

Originally posted by Smurph
i'm not ODG, so... if he says something and I say something different, that's not an example of one person picking and choosing their stance??

but sure, is that the standard we're all settled on? in a cis off, full capacity thread, behaviour should still reflect the comics? jockey

that's what odg said in the wally vs cosmic thor thread

im just making a little snarky comment

don't take it to heart

I agree with you in this argument, in cis off full capacity battles we value powersets>>>feats

Originally posted by Smurph
"cis off full capacity"
So Firestorm matrix destroys the universe and Surfer dies too.

Originally posted by MrMind
that's what odg said in the wally vs cosmic thor thread

im just making a little snarky comment

don't take it to heart

I agree with you in this argument, in cis off full capacity battles we value powersets>>>feats I'm all aboard the snark train

and I actually think ODG is mostly right, but I just want a consistent standard.

Originally posted by Smurph
I'm all aboard the snark train

and I actually think ODG is mostly right, but I just want a consistent standard.
That's a lot asking from ODG.

See, I think CIS off, full capacity still has their characters intact.

For example, say Flash Vs Thor. It is fully within his capacity to run over to Thor and literally bite his face off and start eating chunks of his head in front of Thor, at super speed.

Is it CIS off? Yes.

Is it full capacity? Yes.

Is it in character? Hells no!

Now, if you then turn character off, sure. But character is still on. Wally won't fight like a bloodthirsty zombie, even though it's well within his power set to do so.

There needs to be some leeway, though. We've never seen Superman lift a 100 ton pencil in a comic but that doesn't mean he can't.

i was under the assumption character is off when cis is off

we are purely debating power sets, power levels

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
See, I think CIS off, full capacity still has their characters intact.

For example, say Flash Vs Thor. It is fully within his capacity to run over to Thor and literally bite his face off and start eating chunks of his head in front of Thor, at super speed.

Is it CIS off? Yes.

Is it full capacity? Yes.

Is it in character? Hells no!

Now, if you then turn character off, sure. But character is still on. Wally won't fight like a bloodthirsty zombie, even though it's well within his power set to do so.

There needs to be some leeway, though. We've never seen Superman lift a 100 ton pencil in a comic but that doesn't mean he can't.

I agree but that's an easy example because nobody's arguing that Flash will start chomping.

The tension occurs when an optimal strategy (full capacity) isn't supported by showings (in character).

Yeah, so I always think turning CIS isn't a good idea when making VSthreads, since it tends to blur the boundary between no-limits fallacy and in character

Originally posted by Smurph
I agree but that's an easy example because nobody's arguing that Flash will start chomping.

The tension occurs when an optimal strategy (full capacity) isn't supported by showings (in character).

Depends what you think their character is like.

Would Flash attempt to headbutt someone at lightspeed? We have no comics to suggest he has ever done so, but it's not out of the realms of possibility to say he would.

Would he bite his opponent's nose off at lightspeed? Also no comics to suggest so, but in character, he's more likely (like, 99%) to attempt headbutting, if he's trapped in a bear hug against a strong opponent. Or he could try a speed steal lol.

Stoic is talking about using his board to slice a teenage kid up. I argue that's out of character, CIS or no. Just as Superman won't attempt a nut shot, or WW won't attempt to castrate her opponent with her sword, or Batman won't shove C4 in his opponent's mouth, or .....you get the point.

Originally posted by MrMind
i was under the assumption character is off when cis is off

we are purely debating power sets, power levels I don't think there's consensus here on KMC that is what is meant by "CIS off." But it's your thread. So maybe ask the mods permission to edit the OP and turn this into a forum avatar battle that disregards these character's personalities entirely and is only about their powersets.

Which is a little weird.. given that you identified which of Firestorm's personalities are manifesting here.

Eternity straight up says she can't be on this plane of reality.

Learn to read.