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doctor manhattan

takes on

the entire celestial race

who can stop him

Depends on how powerful Scathan really is I suppose.

Manhattan.

Manhattan (Doomsday Clock arch) can reshape, restore and reboot entire universes. AFAIK, the Celestials have not shown that level of power.

Originally posted by Robtard
Manhattan (Doomsday Clock arch) can reshape, restore and reboot entire universes. AFAIK, the Celestials have not shown that level of power.

They have, but it may have been retconned.

Anyway I hear that current Manhattan is massively multiversal, at least like Multi-Eternity level, so he should win.

Fair enough

Celestials love blue balls lmao

Doc Manhattan.

Originally posted by Endless Mike
They have, but it may have been retconned.

Anyway I hear that current Manhattan is massively multiversal, at least like Multi-Eternity level, so he should win. It seems to me that's actually been reinforced with the new Defenders: Beyond series out by Al Ewing. But it's not clear if the feats of the First Cosmos' Celestials can be claimed by the current 616 Celestial Host.

Dr. Manhattan's retcons struck me as more of retconning 10 years away from DC's metaverse which systematically caused the DC multiverse to grow a new alternate universe(s). Jonn didn't twist around every single DC alternate universe simultaneously.

Originally posted by ODG
It seems to me that's actually been reinforced with the new Defenders: Beyond series out by Al Ewing. But it's not clear if the feats of the First Cosmos' Celestials can be claimed by the current 616 Celestial Host.

Dr. Manhattan's retcons struck me as more of retconning 10 years away from DC's metaverse which systematically caused the DC multiverse to grow a new alternate universe(s). Jonn didn't twist around every single DC alternate universe simultaneously.

true, but it was specifically implied in death metal that doctor manhattan is equal to perpetua

^ What scene are you referring to again? If that were the case though, I don't think the Darkest Knight would have needed to redirect all of the Crisis energy being gathered into himself to take Perpetua on then.

Originally posted by ODG
^ What scene are you referring to again? If that were the case though, I don't think the Darkest Knight would have needed to redirect all of the Crisis energy being gathered into himself to take Perpetua on then.

connective energy manhattan wields is the opposite of crisis energy perpetua wields, ying and yang

https://i.ibb.co/2PNzBTH/RCO023-1592324118.jpg

And as of Defenders Beyond #2 it's made clear that the Beyonders (and by implication their creators, the Celestials) have infinite power.

Batman Who Laughs had the power of at least one Dr. Manhattan and he consolidated powers beyond that to combat Perpetua, and both of their powers were finite.
Originally posted by Astner
https://i.imgur.com/mhNrLwgm.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/PW66K4m.png

https://i.imgur.com/yt1suwC.png

Originally posted by Astner
And as of Defenders Beyond #2 it's made clear that the Beyonders (and by implication their creators, the Celestials) have infinite power.

Batman Who Laughs had the power of at least one Dr. Manhattan and he consolidated powers beyond that to combat Perpetua, and both of their powers were finite.

https://i.imgur.com/PW66K4m.png

https://i.imgur.com/yt1suwC.png
Nothing in comics is infinite. Just yesterday a new Celestial was suggested to have power to destroy a few cities only when it's entire energy was released.

Perpetua could create and hold an infinite multiverse in the palm of her hand. Celestials aren't on that level, neither was Beyonder at any level.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Nothing in comics is infinite. Just yesterday a new Celestial was suggested to have power to destroy a few cities only when it's entire energy was released.
I haven't read A.X.E. yet so I can't comment on what you're referring to. But in Defenders Beyond #2 they are certainly implied to be infinite.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Perpetua could create and hold an infinite multiverse in the palm of her hand. Celestials aren't on that level, neither was Beyonder at any level.
Poetic license aside, Perpetua's multiverse was never infinite. Her plan was to make it infinite by having it expand across the omniverse, that's why the Cosmic Raptor stopped her.

Even after she had regained most of her powers she struggled to destroy individual universes.

https://i.imgur.com/2PLWdHom.jpg

- One of the Justice League (2018) issues, foget which...I think it's around #24, but can't look it up at work.

https://i.imgur.com/0xMEVcam.jpeghttps://i.imgur.com/yXrFyRLm.png

- Death Metal: Multiverse's End #1.

And let's not forget Anti-Crisis Wonder Woman's star-shaking punches.Originally posted by Astner
https://i.imgur.com/He72wnt.png- Dark Nights: Death Metal #7.

If the Celestials are infinite (as implied in Defenders Beyond #2) then one of them would be more than enough to take on anything the "Divine Continuum" has to offer, with the arguable exception of the Great Darkenss and the Overvoid.

Originally posted by Astner
I haven't read A.X.E. yet so I can't comment on what you're referring to. But in Defenders Beyond #2 they are certainly implied to be infinite.

I like how that's not poetic license.

No, the multiverse was infinite.

https://imgur.io/gallery/8491bYr
https://i.postimg.cc/RFRq6z9N/image.jpg





I would like to see weakened celestial or Beyonder destroying a universe in one attack. Do show me those feats.

When celestials can outright destroy universe straight up, do let me know.

As opposed to the mountain shaking battle of the fourth host when they imprisoned Dreaming Celestial?

Good thing is, even TOAA isn't infinite in marvel, forget about celestials. It took the combined power of entire Beyonder race to destroy a few hundred thousand universes BTW.

But Abhi does have a point about infinity being thrown about all the time.
The Speed Force is said to be infinite, for example. And Wally can use it fully.

Is he a match, then, for the Beyonders? I mean, the Celestials weren't said to have infinite power - you are inferring it (and rightly so, btw). The Speed Force IS explicitly said to be infinite, so do we take that as face value?

Just as an example, I'm sure there are others. Like a book with loads of pages, for example. Written by monkeys.

Infinite power can destroy millions from Arctic to Russia.

https://i.postimg.cc/0KjB21pt/image.jpg

Oh no

Reykjavik is Iceland, noob. Such a lowballer.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But Abhi does have a point about infinity being thrown about all the time.
The Speed Force is said to be infinite, for example. And Wally can use it fully.

Is he a match, then, for the Beyonders? I mean, the Celestials weren't said to have infinite power - you are inferring it (and rightly so, btw). The Speed Force IS explicitly said to be infinite, so do we take that as face value?

Just as an example, I'm sure there are others. Like a book with loads of pages, for example. Written by monkeys.
Hell, he was straight up stated to have infinite power.

https://i.postimg.cc/YqkcTGch/12-19.jpg

No implications needed.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Reykjavik is Iceland, noob. Such a lowballer.
ZOMG, TRANSINFINITE POWER CONFIRMED!!!!!

I mean c'mon, celestials have been so much jobbers last decade that you can argue pretty much anyone can beat them.

Beyonders got seriously downgraded.

Two points. Firstly, figurative expressions in some works do not discount literal expressions in other works.

Secondly, the Beyonders brought about the Blue Incursions during Time Runs Out, which were explicit universe-destroying feats, so they're certainly universe-busters. And the Celestials destroyed the First Cosmos (albeit with technology).

That said, there's no point for me to continue this debate until I've read A.X.E. because that too provides a contemporary presentation of the Celestials that has to be considered.

Originally posted by Astner
Two points. Firstly, figurative expressions in some works do not discount literal expressions in other works.

Secondly, the Beyonders brought about the Blue Incursions during Time Runs Out, which were explicit universe-destroying feats, so they're certainly universe-busters. And the Celestials destroyed the First Cosmos (albeit with technology).

That said, there's no point for me to continue this debate until I've read A.X.E. because that too provides a contemporary presentation of the Celestials that has to be considered.
Plus, whilst the Beyonders have no limit, they were expressly created in order to defeat the Celestials.

It doesn't necessarily mean the Celestials are infinite. If Tony Stark (as an example) builds a device capable of flying, it doesn't follow that he, without the suit, as a baseline human, can fly. The implication that the Celestials are infinite because they created infinite beings is VERY tenuous.

Moreover, infinite power can't affect infinite power. It just....logically doesn't track.

Yet America Chavez made the Beyonder bleed. The Beyonders are supposedly infinite - yet are afraid of non-linear threats, there are unstoppable threats that they cannot stop.

That doesn't sound like infinite power to me, if there are limits. Sounds like poetic licence, no?

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Yet America Chavez made the Beyonder bleed. The Beyonders are supposedly infinite - yet are afraid of non-linear threats, there are unstoppable threats that they cannot stop.
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated that what they interacted with was limited physical representations of the Omega Men.

Only to project the form they could understand, but I agree with the point.

That still doesn't negate any of the other points I raised. They have limits, they have fears, and if they're truly infinite.....and you say it implies the Celestials are infinite too....how does infinite harm infinite?

Originally posted by Astner
Two points. Firstly, figurative expressions in some works do not discount literal expressions in other works.

Let me guess, you're the only one who can make such distinction?

It was a cascade brought by death of a Molecule man. It wasn't outright destruction of a universe by Beyonders.

They shattered first cosmos, it wasn't destroyed.

Fair enough.

Originally posted by Astner
I'm pretty sure it was explicitly stated that what they interacted with was limited physical representations of the Omega Men.
Eternity mask made Chavez Beyonder's equal in power.

Originally posted by MrMind
connective energy manhattan wields is the opposite of crisis energy perpetua wields, ying and yang

https://i.ibb.co/2PNzBTH/RCO023-1592324118.jpg I agree that their energies are opposite poles but am I missing something from this scan that suggests that Doctor Manhattan and Perpetua were equally as powerful as each other?

Tony Stark reanimates a Celestial Gollum in AXE... The Celestials still suck dick and AXE is shite too.

https://media.giphy.com/media/xThta9b5IQSPT6fofS/giphy.gif

Which Arc or series y'all reading about all this beyonder and celestial stuff I don't remember the celestials creating beyonders

^ Defenders: Beyond by Al Ewing.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Hell, he was straight up stated to have infinite power.

https://i.postimg.cc/YqkcTGch/12-19.jpg

No implications needed. Infinite power, yet he's "maybe" more powerful than Superman. Interesting. vin

The funniest part is his pose during Mr Terrific's speech

More like infinite power bottom amirite

Originally posted by abhilegend
Let me guess, you're the only one who can make such distinction?
Anyone can make them. You just have to ask yourself, "does this interpretation make sense?" and be honest with your answer. If your interpretation of a statement is inconsistent with the overarching story then it's wrong.

Originally posted by abhilegend
It was a cascade brought by death of a Molecule man. It wasn't outright destruction of a universe by Beyonders.
No. You're confusing the Blue Incursions from the Red Incursions. The Blue Incursions were brought about by the Beyonders after they were summoned by the Mapmakers and Bridgebuilders.

Originally posted by abhilegend
They shattered first cosmos, it wasn't destroyed.
I don't see how that would be less impressive.

Originally posted by Astner
Anyone can make them. You just have to ask yourself, "does this interpretation make sense?" and be honest with your answer. If your interpretation of a statement is inconsistent with the overarching story then it's wrong.

And you think "Perpetua who created an entire multiverse must be limited but jobber celestials are infinite".

Makes sense if you are a marvel zombie.

Wut? Incursions were always due to the death of a Molecule man. Beyonders didn't destroy any universe in secret wars themselves.

Because it was only a universe, not a multiverse and only parts of it were shattered.

Those are all very good points, and I don't have any good answer to any of them.

Let me guess, Celestials and Beyonder have never been depleted or weakened? Even pre retcon Beyonder was weakened after he erased death to the point he couldn't kill a flower.



Because "infinity" for Celestials is literal but not for everyone else?

You're not the authority of arbitration here if you don't know.



So whichever benefits the Marvel characters?



Mapmakers never summoned the Beyonders, what are you talking about? I've read the entire saga multiple times, do share the scan where Beyonders destroyed a universe.



The combined universe was stronger than the resultant multiverse, Ewing made it clear in Ultimates.

Originally posted by One_Angry_Scot
Ultimates 2 #9 Pt 2/2

https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662723_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-012.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662725_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-013.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662727_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-014.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662728_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-015.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662732_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-016.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662733_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-017.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662735_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-018.jpg https://s7d2.turboimg.net/t/35662737_Ultimates_2_2016-2017_009-019.jpg
Scans

astner larping for marvel cosmics is literally like me larping for thor

he doesn't really truly believe what he's saying

he's just bored and try to find something to debate

Originally posted by Astner
Those are all very good points, and I don't have any good answer to any of them.
Probably because it's just poetic licence that the Beyonders are 'without limit'. Because we clearly see in the same issue that they indeed have limits.

Not that they're even in this thread. Beyonders =/= Celestials.

^ Does the Celestial Host need to be without limit to defeat Doctor Manhattan???

Originally posted by ODG
^ Does the Celestial Host need to be without limit to defeat Doctor Manhattan???

let's start from basic

how would you rate doctor manhattan power wise

universal? multiversal?

Originally posted by ODG
^ Does the Celestial Host need to be without limit to defeat Doctor Manhattan???

They do not, of course.

Astner's logic stems from one side being said to have limits, and th other was inferred to have none

Originally posted by MrMind
let's start from basic

how would you rate doctor manhattan power wise

universal? multiversal? How would you rate the Celestial Host?

Originally posted by ODG
How would you rate the Celestial Host?

c'mon bro don't do the answering a question with a question thing

Tons of high end cosmics are described as infinite or unlimited in power.

Feats are what matter.

im trying to get a discussion discourse going

how powerful do you think celestial host is?

how powerful do you think doctor manhattan is?

doctor manhattan is stated to be more powerful to mxy

how do you compare celestial host to someone like mxy. who has snapped away and recreated dc with his finger

^ So what are your thoughts then?

I don't think Celestial host can casually destroy and recreate a universe (forget multiverse).

If Manhattan can then he wins.

How does this celestials as creators story fit in with them getting their heads chopped off by knull?

Originally posted by Diesldude
How does this celestials as creators story fit in with them getting their heads chopped off by knull?

or sue storm

or thor

godkiller armor killed billions of them

marvel cosmic is such a joke

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Reykjavik is Iceland, noob. Such a lowballer.

Abhi's geography knowledge is on American level

Read defenders 1 and 2. There nothing in these 2 books that would support the celestials being raised to higher tier than they were previously.

Sure they created the beyonders and they gave them the raw power to kill them. But is this raw power from the celestial themselves or the power from beyond the beyond?

And at this point secret war 2 is completely retconned

Originally posted by Diesldude
Read defenders 1 and 2. There nothing in these 2 books that would support the celestials being raised to higher tier than they were previously.

Sure they created the beyonders and they gave them the raw power to kill them. But is this raw power from the celestial themselves or the power from beyond the beyond?

Tony Stark isn't stronger/more durable/powerful than his creations. So the entire thing is moot anyway.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Abhi's geography knowledge is on American level

you europeans jealous you aint us

we got carver alberto and gecko

Bro, the only thing you've got is Xi Jinping.

And giant hornets.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tony Stark isn't stronger/more durable/powerful than his creations. So the entire thing is moot anyway.



Hank Pym - completely useless and dull character which only Pr likes - invented Ultron, one of the Avengers' greatest villains.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Tony Stark isn't stronger/more durable/powerful than his creations. So the entire thing is moot anyway. Cosmic Tony was.

Shove your "but" up your butt

Originally posted by MrMind
And at this point secret war 2 is completely retconned Not sure that's true. The fact that Tigra is one of the Defenders and they showed flashbacks to it points to the opposite?

Caught up in flowery prose

So who wins?

^ Maybe we should focus on the current Fifth Celestial Host? The timeline is a bit muddled but given that Ewing appears to be clarifying Marvel cosmology, probably best to start there since the Fifth Celestial Host started in his Ultimates run.

Edit.

Sadly the Celestials proved to be fodder to likes of sise-neg, a magical time manipulator, and many other magical entities such as dormammu, shuma-gorath, nightmare, etc. Dr.Manhattan transcends both the concept of magic and time honestly he oneshots the entire celestial race.

Originally posted by ODG


Well in the wake of Secret Wars, the laws/hierarchy of the Eighth Cosmos was in flux. Convenient excuse to allow the unthinkable to occur. I mean, the First Firmament was literally eating the Eighth Cosmos iteration of the Marvel Multiverse. And it took the Ultimate Ultimates, all versions of each iteration of the Marvel Multiverse to beat him? Has there ever been a team-up of such proportions necessary to defeat the big bad?

We both agree that Blue Marvel only trapped the Shaper's ghost. Also I was that wanker that pointed out it was only Olgrun's ghost. sneer Are we diverting from the Fifth Celestial Host or are we just acting like all Celestial Hosts are the same? the wanker I meant was carter lmao. Not you bro . I have never seen you lie or misrepresent a scan in a debate.

I’ll post rest of my thoughts in response to your post later.

^ Do you care to explain why the entire Celestial Host loses?

Originally posted by Smurph
The funniest part is his pose during Mr Terrific's speech

More like infinite power bottom amirite

according to dennis power bottom generates tremendous amount of power

doctor manhattan is more like a twank reversal

Checks out

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Flash was mainlining the Speed Force, actually utilising infinite energy (and not the first time either), so......

Dr manhattan murders celestials with a flick . Darkest knight became superior to hands after absorbing his energies . The same hands killed trillions of multiverses in the omniverse .