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No flight, heat vision, super breath for Superman. Speed has been equalized.

Fights in an unpopulated NYC.

Who wins?

Note* If Hercules is a 4 in skill, I'm sure Superman would be a 2

Superman, a 2???

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
OK, maybe I should go slower.

What does this mean to you?

https://i.postimg.cc/FznN6qf0/Fighting.jpg

A separate question, what does the scan say for a rating of 3?

Simple enough questions.

He'd be a 4!

Originally posted by Facee


Note* If Hercules is a 4 in skill, I'm sure Superman would be a 2 Abhi is gonna have a field day with this

Superman is stronger and more invulnerable.

Originally posted by Diesldude
Superman is stronger and more invulnerable.
Yup. Superman wins.

Originally posted by zopzop
Yup. Superman wins.

Herc

Originally posted by carver9
Herc Based on?

Originally posted by Facee
No flight, heat vision, super breath for Superman. Speed has been equalized.

Fights in an unpopulated NYC.

Who wins?

Note* If Hercules is a 4 in skill, I'm sure Superman would be a 2 Superman has been trained in unarmed combat by Batman, Wonder Woman and Wildcat in more modern day techniques, he's a 4 at least.

Superman oneshot kills him.

Hercules 7/10. At least.

He's a more skilled and dirty fighter. What is there to argue?

A massive difference in strength?

And I remain unconvinced that he is a more skilled fighter.

^ You don't think Hercules is a more skilled fighter than Superman?

I'll save us the trouble and declare this a non-starter of a debate.

Originally posted by Smurph
A massive difference in strength?

And I remain unconvinced that he is a more skilled fighter.
Superman has better skill feats than Hercules and Thor put together.

Originally posted by Facee
No flight, heat vision, super breath for Superman. Speed has been equalized.

Fights in an unpopulated NYC.

Who wins?

Note* If Hercules is a 4 in skill, I'm sure Superman would be a 2

If Hercules is 4, Superman is at least 10 in skill lol.

Originally posted by Facee
No flight, heat vision, super breath for Superman. Speed has been equalized.

Fights in an unpopulated NYC.

Who wins?

Note* If Hercules is a 4 in skill, I'm sure Superman would be a 2



Actallllly...


Superman, while completely powerless, defeated MAer Kobra in h2h combat. That kind of (Donald) Trumps any skill showing Herc has.

Edited.


Originally posted by Smurph
A massive difference in strength?

And I remain unconvinced that he is a more skilled fighter.


You don't need to believe he's skilled in an absolute sense, only that he's more skilled then Herc.



And only one of them outright defeated a martial artist in hand to hand combat.


Managed to track down a page off Google image search:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ab7f16dd91f69229e3df558476a56963-lq

Body swapping shenanigans, Superman in Kobra's body, Kobra in Batmans.


How could he do this? Mongul Jr. martial arts training during Imperiex saga:


https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-b5cfd2fe3aee0199038e06f05445dcab-lq

Kryptonian martial arts:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-1bdf4fdb95101910d2459c88bcaa8d7e-lq


Plus Batman training:


https://imgix.bustle.com/inverse/7e/2c/6d/7f/2cf3/414e/bfbb/0a6f385db21a/1862680-1648023worldofnewkrypton03asuperjpg.jpeg?w=349&h=552&fit=max&auto=format%2Ccompress

Originally posted by ODG
Hercules 7/10. At least.

He's a more skilled and dirty fighter. What is there to argue? There is a massive Stat advantage. Superman is multiple orders of magnitude more powerful than Herc.
We are only 1 order of magnitude stronger than a small child. Yet said child can only sting us (not really damage us or have any chance of koing us).
Superman is at least 5 magnitudes stronger.

And as crazy as it sounds, Superman has better feats of h2h skill than Herc.
Prove me wrong.

Here's the kicker. Superman >>>>>>> Hulk which will always beat the shit out of Herc despite being less skilled.

I'll just post this along with the second half already posted:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-823211d5991aecb21f75cf960fab7671-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ab7f16dd91f69229e3df558476a56963-lq


Kobra is skilled enough to match Mr. Terrific, who mastered about 10 martial arts himself. Also saw scans of Batman and The Outsiders facing down Kobra forces, so bet they fought at least once.

Originally posted by ODG
^ You don't think Hercules is a more skilled fighter than Superman?

I'll save us the trouble and declare this a non-starter of a debate. I just don't take it as a given, seeing as Superman has his own wealth of fighting experience and Herc's skill seems to be mostly talk.

That doesn't address the strength disparity, at any rate.

I think the issue here is comic writers and artists rarely know how to depict fights properly. How would we showcase skill?

We would need ABC fights where these two are on an equal physical footing with their (skilled) opponents (and then, we'd need to go into those opponent's showings), or we'd need 'flashy' depictions of skill (pressure points usually being the go-to).

Herc or Superman punching someone whilst the narration states how skilled they are isn't really that impressive, I feel. Just my view.

Originally posted by Smurph
I just don't take it as a given, seeing as Superman has his own wealth of fighting experience and Herc's skill seems to be mostly talk.

That doesn't address the strength disparity, at any rate.
Oh, he doesn't think there is a strength disparity. Apparently Thor is as strong as Superman according to dumbo.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think the issue here is comic writers and artists rarely know how to depict fights properly. How would we showcase skill?

We would need ABC fights where these two are on an equal physical footing with their (skilled) opponents (and then, we'd need to go into those opponent's showings), or we'd need 'flashy' depictions of skill (pressure points usually being the go-to).

Herc or Superman punching someone whilst the narration states how skilled they are isn't really that impressive, I feel. Just my view.
Simple, whichever benefits Thor is more skilled.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think the issue here is comic writers and artists rarely know how to depict fights properly. How would we showcase skill?

We would need ABC fights where these two are on an equal physical footing with their (skilled) opponents (and then, we'd need to go into those opponent's showings), or we'd need 'flashy' depictions of skill (pressure points usually being the go-to).

Herc or Superman punching someone whilst the narration states how skilled they are isn't really that impressive, I feel. Just my view.

Like New Krypton?

If you didn't have me on block you'd have seen a scan where Superman uses pressure points from the get go.


Here's a better scan:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-f1dc41f11f87705d2aff48ae5f9c6aa9-lq


And here's a second example of pressure point usage:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-6d18a2aaf3ad4b67ae7a9c204f55a856-lq

So, Superman wins I'd think.

Originally posted by ODG
Superman is an amateur. Most of his skills showings involve him taking advantage of cocky, over-confident, or simply uneducated foes who aren't aware of his training. Mongul was the one schmuck who might have been aware, but if people think his arrogance didn't cloud his judgment when he engaged Superman, you've got to be kidding me. Superman's expertise in melee weapons is non-existent.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I think the issue here is comic writers and artists rarely know how to depict fights properly. How would we showcase skill?

We would need ABC fights where these two are on an equal physical footing with their (skilled) opponents (and then, we'd need to go into those opponent's showings), or we'd need 'flashy' depictions of skill (pressure points usually being the go-to).

Herc or Superman punching someone whilst the narration states how skilled they are isn't really that impressive, I feel. Just my view. Yeah, I think that contributes to why we only tend to see Herc's skill when he loses or draws.

Still, seems to be a herald specific problem. Depicting skill is inevitably an ABC exercise but street level fights tend to figure it out.

Originally posted by ODG
Great. A comic character that's made over 6000 appearances actually once beat a martial arts master that utterly underestimated him. *applause*

That victory and his foray into mythology actually went into my consideration of voting for him to move up to the third tier. But you know what Superman's 1000-year foray into myth actually did? Nothing more than simply putting him on par with Any. Average. Asgardian/Olympian. Warrior. *applause*

Apparently Kobra suckerpunching Superman and losing is due to him underestimating him.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra1.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra2.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra3.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra4.jpg

I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Apparently Kobra suckerpunching Superman and losing is due to him underestimating him.

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra1.jpg
http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra2.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra3.jpg

http://i738.photobucket.com/albums/xx28/PhilosophiaKMC/SupesKobra4.jpg

I'd laugh if it wasn't so pathetic.




CDxAz-VwDco

Originally posted by cdtm
I'll just post this along with the second half already posted:

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-823211d5991aecb21f75cf960fab7671-lq

https://qph.cf2.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-ab7f16dd91f69229e3df558476a56963-lq


Kobra is skilled enough to match Mr. Terrific, who mastered about 10 martial arts himself. Also saw scans of Batman and The Outsiders facing down Kobra forces, so bet they fought at least once.
Kobra actually defeated Batman outright

Originally posted by Smurph
Yeah, I think that contributes to why we only tend to see Herc's skill when he loses or draws.

Still, seems to be a herald specific problem. Depicting skill is inevitably an ABC exercise but street level fights tend to figure it out.

Tangential, but it's why I loved that the animation team copied Undisputed 2 for their Black Adam scenes

jSMO9GcQgko

Could've swore powerless Herc got a stalemate against Elektra.

Originally posted by carver9
Could've swore powerless Herc got a stalemate against Elektra.
He didn't. He had the sword of Peleus and the shield of Medusa at the time.

Once she stole his toys (the helm) she thrashed him.

Not to mention she was trying to get him to leave the city iirc.

Originally posted by carver9
Could've swore powerless Herc got a stalemate against Elektra.
Powerless Superman defeated 3 alternate Batmen outright.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Superman beats the crap out of multiple evil Batmen while powerless and holding back.

https://i.postimg.cc/hXBR9cm5/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/G4xwKVJh/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/kVMrpsfN/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/67HsJZmk/image.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/S2jBys0J/image.jpg
Including Owlman.

No one would say that either side was serious. Herc was flirting with her, and pretending to be incompetent, and she was trying to get him to leave.

Not to mention he's using the unbreakable shield and unblockable sword there...

https://i.postimg.cc/BPprjVx3/RCO012-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/KkSSwLZ6/RCO013-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/CBGTg15z/RCO014-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/V0zyL804/RCO015-1465444471.jpg

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No one would say that either side was serious. Herc was flirting with her, and pretending to be incompetent, and she was trying to get him to leave.

Not to mention he's using the unbreakable shield and unblockable sword there...

https://i.postimg.cc/BPprjVx3/RCO012-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/KkSSwLZ6/RCO013-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/CBGTg15z/RCO014-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/V0zyL804/RCO015-1465444471.jpg

Originally posted by Smurph
Herc and Elektra clashing was barely a skirmish, and certainly not enough to be a skill comparison. They sorta-almost-fought but, more accurately, Elektra gave some half-assed attacks while telling him that he's now powerless and he should leave Brooklyn because he won't save it. So it was truly just a shot across the bow. And of course it doesn't work; Hercules bravely defends himself and says he's still a hero even without his powers. He gets one cool moment where the Sword of Peleus cut through her sai, but that's consistent - it did the same thing to Hobgoblin's fire sword and Herc claimed it could cut molecules.

All to say, whether you think she was making a lame intimidation attempt or just assessing his abilities, you can't read that scene and tell me she was exactly pressed. I suppose someone might counter and say the same about Herc, but again, that just leaves us with zero comparison between them. She could be one tier above him in skill, or stratospherically so.

Originally posted by Smurph



So the same thing as the often touted Question "feat" against Shiva? Where she was very clearly not fighting to the death, and only seemed to be assessing his progress?

Originally posted by cdtm
So the same thing as the often touted Question "feat" against Shiva? Where she was very clearly not fighting to the death, and only seemed to be assessing his progress? Often touted?

The issue literally ends with them walking side by side as friends through the streets of Brooklyn.

Originally posted by Smurph
Often touted?

Back when KMC still had Question fans.

I like the character myself, but you had it straight from the horses mouth that he contributes absolutely nothing in a team up with the Batman and Arrow.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No one would say that either side was serious. Herc was flirting with her, and pretending to be incompetent, and she was trying to get him to leave.

Not to mention he's using the unbreakable shield and unblockable sword there...

https://i.postimg.cc/BPprjVx3/RCO012-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/KkSSwLZ6/RCO013-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/CBGTg15z/RCO014-w-1465444471.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/V0zyL804/RCO015-1465444471.jpg

So I can have an unbreakable shield and unbreakable sword and stalemate Elektra?

You can rip metal. You can do anything.

Originally posted by carver9
So I can have an unbreakable shield and unbreakable sword and stalemate Elektra?

When she's trying to get you to leave the city and not kill you yes.

You swing your sword, she tries to block it....guess what, you're breaking her sai.

Then she leaps away. Does that mean you stalemated her? How skilled does this make you? Do you take her highest feats and go gee, I swung at her and broke her sword with mine, I'm super skilled?

Originally posted by abhilegend


You can rip metal. You can do anything.

No. He CAN'T rip metal, Jeez, abhi.

He CAN juggle suns though.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
No. He CAN'T rip metal, Jeez, abhi.

He CAN juggle suns though.
Handful of suns

Originally posted by cdtm
Back when KMC still had Question fans.

I like the character myself, but you had it straight from the horses mouth that he contributes absolutely nothing in a team up with the Batman and Arrow. so... NOT often touted then?

You're describing the opposite of "often".

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
When she's trying to get you to leave the city and not kill you yes.

You swing your sword, she tries to block it....guess what, you're breaking her sai.

Then she leaps away. Does that mean you stalemated her? How skilled does this make you? Do you take her highest feats and go gee, I swung at her and broke her sword with mine, I'm super skilled?

This point Dark is making, it's a good one. And applies to Iron Fist.


Batman blocks his fist, eats chi fist through the guard. Yet somehow everyone always argued the Bat Family beats Danny, like he didn't have a built in cheat.

And I'll stop at that so as not to derail, it was too good an opportunity to pass up.

Compare Herc and Elektra vs Natasha and Elektra

One of those is a vague encounter and the other is a *stalemate*

Originally posted by carver9
So I can have an unbreakable shield and unbreakable sword and stalemate Elektra? Dark is wrong to answer "sure" to this question as phrased because... again, not a stalemate. Let's get real and not water down words to pump up Hercules.

Yeah it's only a stalemate if one thinks cutting her sai with your sword that cuts through anything is a stalemate...

Originally posted by Smurph
so... NOT often touted then?

You're describing the opposite of "often".

Having a conversation with Todd just makes his condition worse, fyi.

You could be sued for torturing the patient.

Shitting down his throat and calling him n-word (even though he's white) is the only treatment he needs.

The Addams Family rules apply here.

Originally posted by Smurph
so... NOT often touted then?

You're describing the opposite of "often".

No, it's often. I forget the posters names, but I think one was Canadian.


They had entire threads dedicated to The Question as a martial artist. The MA top lists had arguments for his placement using Shiva as a main talking point.

I mean, my memories bad and I never really can keep track of who's still here and who knows who, you're like Brain grilling at Pinky here. 🤪


But yeah, I have personally seen threads where it was a common argument at some point in my KMC time here and just assumed everyone else would know what I'm talking about, as I always do because any time I say I don't know a thing Stilt comes in and ribs me about not knowing the 12 year old conversation I should have seen.

Ok?

Originally posted by deathslash
fights against an all out shiva don't lie.


I'll look for more with another engine, Google prunes a lot of stuff.




It's also possible I'm remembering another comic site like CBR or Comicvine. Basically I lump the comic community together for the most part, ya all plagiarize on respect threads and other stuff.

This is Herc against his physical superior, when tricked out to the nines with his magical gear, has the element of surprise and his opponent has to spend most of the fight fighting without using his eyes:

https://i.postimg.cc/N5mNfRJd/RCO013-1475878014.jpg https://i.postimg.cc/gxpgwr1m/RCO014-1475878014.jpg

He loses his helmet, he loses his shield, then gets smashed. 3-shotted.

Then again, how skilled is Shaw?

Originally posted by Smurph
I just don't take it as a given, seeing as Superman has his own wealth of fighting experience and Herc's skill seems to be mostly talk. I would laugh if I wasn't busy vomiting over the irony.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Then again, how skilled is Shaw?

Why does it matter?

He was quite literally amnesiac in that book.

And Herc wasn't the only one to face him there, either.

^ And Hercules was depowered as Sebastian Shaw literally states, so???

What... mortal Hercules losing to Sebastian Shaw is a knock on Hercules' fighting prowess?

Would you guys give Daredevil crap for losing to Sebastian Shaw???

Originally posted by ODG
I would laugh if I wasn't busy vomiting over the irony. Awww I thought I was the one who needed to disarm the snark

Originally posted by Smurph
Awww I thought I was the one who needed to disarm the snark But... my post was snarky... I didn't mean to disarm anything...

... which means I've been foiled and you disarmed me?

https://i.gifer.com/origin/6b/6ba3a77b877b7e902e22af4ab00f675d_w200.gif

What tomfoolery is this???

Originally posted by ODG
^ And Hercules was depowered as Sebastian Shaw literally states, so???

What... mortal Hercules losing to Sebastian Shaw is a knock on Hercules' fighting prowess?

Would you guys give Daredevil crap for losing to Sebastian Shaw???

Herc still had quite a few superhuman feats despite said depowerment.

Not to mention that his magical gear made up for it.

So yes, quite pathetic performance from Herc, but we're all used to piss-poor Olympians and Asgardians on this forum.

^^ Sorbo Hercules got depowered but Ferrigno Hercules was Full power.

https://i.ibb.co/DCZwnM1/Animation12.gif

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Herc still had quite a few superhuman feats despite said depowerment.

Not to mention that his magical gear made up for it.

So yes, quite pathetic performance from Herc, but we're all used to piss-poor Olympians and Asgardians on this forum. Maybe in his previous depowerment... but Sebastian Shaw literally states that Hercules was "barely stronger than a normal man".

And from what I remember of the concurrent run of Herc, there weren't really any enhanced, much less superhuman, feats I can recall. He was completely mortal.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/DCZwnM1/Animation12.gif this dude makes the hulk look small.

Originally posted by ODG
Maybe in his previous depowerment... but Sebastian Shaw literally states that Hercules was "barely stronger than a normal man".

And from what I remember of the concurrent run of Herc, there weren't really any enhanced, much less superhuman, feats I can recall. He was completely mortal.

See, you're wrong here.

It was just far less obvious than in the "classic" Mortal Herc's case (when he was still operating as a metahuman 24/7, just less powerful than his immortal incarnation), but he did somehow access his "godly status" a few times to perform the feats requiring super-strength or other supernatural qualities.

To this day, there is no Herc version that was 100% humanized/depowered completely. Dude always "cheats".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
See, you're wrong here.

It was just far less obvious than in the "classic" Mortal Herc's case (when he was still operating as a metahuman 24/7, just less powerful than his immortal incarnation), but he did somehow access his "godly status" a few times to perform the feats requiring super-strength or other supernatural qualities.

To this day, there is no Herc version that was 100% humanized/depowered completely. Dude always "cheats". Even if I were to give your assertion full weight and credibility, how does that bear at all during the Sebastian Shaw fight?

Did mortal Hercules cheat by no-selling lightning when he fought Sebastian Shaw?

Or are you just trying to sell a complete non-sequitur?

Not an assertion, a simple fact. Go through his appearances and find out yourself. You used to do that before you became senile, however I believe you still have some fuel left in the tank.

Matters a lot, just like his magical equipment matters, too.

And yes, it would be pretty pathetic if Murdock failed with such gear & assist, not gonna lie.

Good thing he's actually competent, unlike the so-called "gods".

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
Not an assertion, a simple fact. Go through his appearances and find out yourself. You used to do that before you became senile, however I believe you still have some fuel left in the tank.

Matters a lot, just like his magical equipment matters, too.

And yes, it would be pretty pathetic if Murdock failed with such gear & assist, not gonna lie.

Good thing he's actually competent, unlike the so-called "gods". What is this random personal sh1t? Wolverine-related butthurt? Whatever. I used to take these opportunites to dress posters down for devolving into utter buffoonery.

But I'll try to be nicer and simply leave you with this (richly) deserved gif:

https://www.icegif.com/wp-content/uploads/huh-icegif-12.gif

Bump.

Superman.

Originally posted by Delta1938
Bump.

Superman.