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WHO WINS
JL DIANA

Diana. Stood one level below Superman in terms of durability, speed and strength

Wonder Woman obliterates.

Wonder Woman doesn't exactly have clean wins over anyone as powerful as Namor. Not in a straight-up, fair match anyway.

She won against Luddendorf but he's not at Namor's level, and she did struggle with him.

She won against Ares via plot device.
She had help against Doomsday and Steppenwolf.
She was completely helpless against Superman.
She defeated Cheetah but Cheetah doesn't have enough feats to determine whether she's as high of a threat as Namor.

I'd say this match is a tie.

Originally posted by relentless1
Diana. Stood one level below Superman in terms of durability, speed and strength


And by one level you mean not capable of hurting him, and being a statue to him if he uses his top speed ?

Think thats a few levels

Originally posted by FrothByte
Wonder Woman doesn't exactly have clean wins over anyone as powerful as Namor. Not in a straight-up, fair match anyway.

She won against Luddendorf but he's not at Namor's level, and she did struggle with him.

She won against Ares via plot device.
She had help against Doomsday and Steppenwolf.
She was completely helpless against Superman.
She defeated Cheetah but Cheetah doesn't have enough feats to determine whether she's as high of a threat as Namor.

I'd say this match is a tie.
You assume Namor is very powerful relative to WW. That's the fallacy of your argument.

He has no strength feats above WW's.
Also she is much more skilled, significantly faster, and has powerful tools (lasso,
Aegis force field attack, sword, tiara, etc).


Although it was a low showing for WW, Ludendorff has an awesome strength feat. He crumpled a steel luger gun into pieces with casual ease. That's at least 30 tons or more force in ONE hand. He did it casually which means he can exert 2-5x more force. So he's not exactly a pushover.

Anyway Diana's speed and perception (sees bullets in slow motion) makes this a stomp.

Namor puts up a good fight, but Diana kills him 10/10, far better feats under her belt.

Originally posted by h1a8
You assume Namor is very powerful relative to WW. That's the fallacy of your argument.

He has no strength feats above WW's.
Also she is much more skilled, significantly faster, and has powerful tools (lasso,
Aegis force field attack, sword, tiara, etc).


Although it was a low showing for WW, Ludendorff has an awesome strength feat. He crumpled a steel luger gun into pieces with casual ease. That's at least 30 tons or more force in ONE hand. He did it casually which means he can exert 2-5x more force. So he's not exactly a pushover.

Anyway Diana's speed and perception (sees bullets in slow motion) makes this a stomp.

What makes you say that WW is much more skilled?

Originally posted by FrothByte
What makes you say that WW is much more skilled?

Just comparing the two in fight scenes shows she is significantly more skilled. Like comparing Bruce Lee and Rocky Balboa.

Originally posted by h1a8
Just comparing the two in fight scenes shows she is significantly more skilled. Like comparing Bruce Lee and Rocky Balboa.

So basically you're confusing fancy spinning kicks with fighting skill right?

A better comparison would be Bruce Lee and Mike Tyson.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So basically you're confusing fancy spinning kicks with fighting skill right? Lord knows you do the same thing with Darth Maul, so why not? mmm

Originally posted by FrothByte
So basically you're confusing fancy spinning kicks with fighting skill right?

A better comparison would be Bruce Lee and Mike Tyson.

Yup, fancy kicks and fancy maneuvers determines fighting skill. Any other suggestions?

Originally posted by h1a8
Yup, fancy kicks and fancy maneuvers determines fighting skill. Any other suggestions?


So like Spider-Man.

Diana 10/10.

Originally posted by NemeBro
Lord knows you do the same thing with Darth Maul, so why not? mmm

Me specifically? I haven't debated for Darth Maul in years. Nevertheless, Darth Maul actually fought 2 Jedi's at the same time and actually had the advantage. Diana doesn't have any skill feat like that.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yup, fancy kicks and fancy maneuvers determines fighting skill. Any other suggestions?

Yeah, defeating actual skilled opponents. Unless you want to claim that Jet Li is somehow a more skilled fighter than Anderson Silva.

Basing fighting skill on fighting moves is the kind of stuff only kids do.

Originally posted by FrothByte

Basing fighting skill on fighting moves is the kind of stuff only kids do.


Actual moves isnt a bad way. Like we see Cap and TChalla use BJJ to grapple opponents. Thanos is boxing against Hulk.

Obviously if we know theyre trained in h2h that should count for something as well.

But h1 seems to suggest fancy maneuvers, which would make Peter Parker the best fighter in the MCU.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
Actual moves isnt a bad way. Like we see Cap and TChalla use BJJ to grapple opponents. Thanos is boxing against Hulk.

Obviously if we know theyre trained in h2h that should count for something as well.

But h1 seems to suggest fancy maneuvers, which would make Peter Parker the best fighter in the MCU.

Actually I made a typo. I typed "fighting moves" when I what I wanted to write was "fancy moves".

Fancy moves is not a great way to judge fighting skill. It's definitely a factor and should be considered, but it pales in comparison to being able to defeat other skilled opponents.

Also just to note, Thanos' skills resembled karate more than they did boxing.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yeah, defeating actual skilled opponents. Unless you want to claim that Jet Li is somehow a more skilled fighter than Anderson Silva.

Basing fighting skill on fighting moves is the kind of stuff only kids do.
Beating skilled opponents?
How do you know if someone is a skilled opponent?

Originally posted by h1a8
Beating skilled opponents?
How do you know if someone is a skilled opponent?

By how effective they are at fighting.

Originally posted by FrothByte
By how effective they are at fighting.

How do you determine effectiveness? Is it their moves or is it the skill of their opponent?

Who did Namor beat to show his skill?

Just saying, effectiveness isn't just flashy moves. The Hulk is an effective h2h fighter, but there are no flashy moves.

Edit: don't conflate skills with effectiveness.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Also just to note, Thanos' skills resembled karate more than they did boxing.

double post

Originally posted by h1a8
You didn't answer the question. How do you determine effectiveness?
What does effectiveness of fighting means?

Don't argue what skill is not, argue what skill is.

Let's say neither defeated any opponent of skill (you still haven't quite defined it) in a fair fight. But since WW has skillful moves (Namor doesn't) and it was shown her training in combat for thousands of years, then it makes more sense she's more skilled.

Jeeze dude. You don't know what effectiveness means?

In a fight, being effective means you win the fight, especially if it's a fair, clean fight. Especially if it's against someone of similar physical stats to you or someone superior.

WW never won a clean, fair fight against anyone that was her physical equal or superior. Luddendorf was the closest but then he was unarmed while she was armed.

So again, why are you saying that she's a more skilled fighter than Namor?

Note that I never claimed Namor was more skilled than her, I'm simply questioning how you arrived at the conclusion that she was more skilled.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Jeeze dude. You don't know what effectiveness means?

In a fight, being effective means you win the fight, especially if it's a fair, clean fight. Especially if it's against someone of similar physical stats to you or someone superior.

WW never won a clean, fair fight against anyone that was her physical equal or superior. Luddendorf was the closest but then he was unarmed while she was armed.

So again, why are you saying that she's a more skilled fighter than Namor?

Note that I never claimed Namor was more skilled than her, I'm simply questioning how you arrived at the conclusion that she was more skilled.

So effectiveness is winning a fair fight?
OK so you ignored this

Originally posted by h1a8

Let's say neither defeated an opponent of equal or better stats in a fair fight. But since WW has skillful moves (Namor doesn't) and it was shown her training in combat for thousands of years, then it makes more sense she's more skilled.

In summary
Assuming neither has beaten anyone of equal or better stats in a fair fight.

Evidence towards WW being more skilled
1. Being trained in combat by a Warrior race for thousands of years
2. Showing skillful fighting moves (moves that take significant skill to pull off)

Double post

Originally posted by h1a8
So effectiveness is winning a fair fight?
OK so you ignored this



In summary
Assuming neither has beaten anyone of equal or better stats in a fair fight.

Evidence towards WW being more skilled
1. Being trained in combat by a Warrior race for thousands of years
2. Showing skillful fighting moves (moves that take significant skill to pull off)

Which is exactly why I never claimed Namor more skilled than WW, because we have no concrete metric. But you claimed it therefore I'm asking you for proof. Going off fancy moves is nonsense, especially when WW generally only uses it against opponents she massively outclasses physically. I mean, she didn't exactly get to use her fancy moves much against Steppenwolf or Superman right?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Which is exactly why I never claimed Namor more skilled than WW, because we have no concrete metric. But you claimed it therefore I'm asking you for proof. Going off fancy moves is nonsense, especially when WW generally only uses it against opponents she massively outclasses physically. I mean, she didn't exactly get to use her fancy moves much against Steppenwolf or Superman right?

Read my post carefully.
I gave 2 points that show WW being more skilled than Namor.

Originally posted by h1a8
Just comparing the two in fight scenes shows she is significantly more skilled. Like comparing Bruce Lee and Rocky Balboa.

But how does your first point (being trained for thousands of years) link to this point, which only really relies on your second point? You're adding and moving things.

Your initial post only based it on their fighting scenes. Now you are saying the background information which isn't present in the fight scenes is what you're using.

I think it all comes down to Writer's Intentions. Which h1a8 is masterful at deciphering.

Originally posted by h1a8
Read my post carefully.
I gave 2 points that show WW being more skilled than Namor.

I'll address your point about having "thousands of years of training" once we finish discussing your point about fancy moves... since that was your original point and you only added training later on.

So again, do you think fancy moves dictates fighting skill? Would you say someone like Van Damme is more skilled than Mike Tyson in their respective primes just because he could do fancy moves? Do you consider Jet Lee a better fighter than Khabib Nurmagomedov?

Because if fancy moves is all you think takes to indicate great fighting skill, then Shuri must be highly skilled as she displayed more complex moves than WW. Agreed?

Originally posted by FrothByte
I'll address your point about having "thousands of years of training" once we finish discussing your point about fancy moves... since that was your original point and you only added training later on.

So again, do you think fancy moves dictates fighting skill? Would you say someone like Van Damme is more skilled than Mike Tyson in their respective primes just because he could do fancy moves? Do you consider Jet Lee a better fighter than Khabib Nurmagomedov?

Because if fancy moves is all you think takes to indicate great fighting skill, then Shuri must be highly skilled as she displayed more complex moves than WW. Agreed?

You are actually creating a strawman. I would say WW did actual skillful effective moves, not fancy moves. You are creating this fancy move argument. Mike Tyson is skilled because he had displayed skillful moves and has beaten opponents that were also skilled.

On kmc, skillful (not fancy) moves >>> no evidence of any kind.
That means a character is more skilled than another if that character displayed skillful moves and the other character has 0 evidence of skill. That's common phucking sense.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are actually creating a strawman. I would say WW did actual skillful effective moves, not fancy moves. You are creating this fancy move argument. Mike Tyson is skilled because he had displayed skillful moves and has beaten opponents that were also skilled.

On kmc, skillful (not fancy) moves >>> no evidence of any kind.
That means a character is more skilled than another if that character displayed skillful moves and the other character has 0 evidence of skill. That's common phucking sense.

Yet how do you define what constitutes "skillful moves"? Why do you claim WW's moves were any more skillful than Namor's?

Would you claim that Shuri is a more skilled fighter than WW based on their respective moves?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Yet how do you define what constitutes "skillful moves"? Why do you claim WW's moves were any more skillful than Namor's?

Would you claim that Shuri is a more skilled fighter than WW based on their respective moves?

The level of skill is determined by how hard it (the difficulty) is for a normal average person to pull off in combat and how effective the move is.

Originally posted by h1a8
The level of skill is determined by how hard it (the difficulty) is for a normal average person to pull off in combat and how effective the move is.

In other words, fancy moves. Because that's what fancy moves are right? Complex and difficult moves.

So do you agree that Shuri is more skilled than Wonder Woman since she was pulling off more difficult moves?

Originally posted by FrothByte
In other words, fancy moves. Because that's what fancy moves are right? Complex and difficult moves.

So do you agree that Shuri is more skilled than Wonder Woman since she was pulling off more difficult moves?

Fancy moves aren't necessarily effective. And Fancy is more of an opinion. Complex and difficult is not necessarily fancy.

Originally posted by h1a8
Fancy moves aren't necessarily effective. And Fancy is more of an opinion. Complex and difficult is not necessarily fancy.

So answer the question: Based on their moves alone, who do you consider more skilled, Shuri or Wonder Woman?

So we're moving on from fancy, to effective. Very nice shifting, h1.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So we're moving on from fancy, to effective. Very nice shifting, h1. He mentioned "fancy moves" as a strawman.
Fancy is a matter of opinion.
For example, a spinning back kick could be fancy to someone but basic and effective to another.

Using "fancy" as an objective argument is flawed.

Originally posted by FrothByte
So answer the question: Based on their moves alone, who do you consider more skilled, Shuri or Wonder Woman?

Based off effective skillful moves done in combat then WW appears significantly more skilled. Shuri is possibly more agile with flips and things. But she hasn't shown any attacks that were more skillful, while effective, than WW has. This is from my memory as I only seen the movie once.

Originally posted by h1a8
Based off effective skillful moves done in combat then WW appears significantly more skilled. Shuri is possibly more agile with flips and things. But she hasn't shown any attacks that were more skillful, while effective, than WW has. This is from my memory as I only seen the movie once.

Again, how are you judging WW's moves as "more skillful"? What metric are you using? Give me a few concrete examples of what makes you consider WW more skilled than Shuri.

Remember that Shuri pulled off a lot of her moves fighting against Talocans, whereas WW pulled off majority of her moves against WW1 human soldiers.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Again, how are you judging WW's moves as "more skillful"? What metric are you using? Give me a few concrete examples of what makes you consider WW more skilled than Shuri.

Remember that Shuri pulled off a lot of her moves fighting against Talocans, whereas WW pulled off majority of her moves against WW1 human soldiers. Talocans was only shown to be stronger and more durable than humans and have siren abilities. They were not shown have superspeed or exceptional h2h fighting abilities. The general (a human) matched well with Attuma and was beating several of them simultaneously.
Shuri is physically superior to the general. You think WW won't own their asses?

As far as skillful, I trained in fighting years ago. So I'm familiar with MA and some MMA. We can compare move by move if you want. Just give a move (attack or defense) by Shuri that is as skillful or more than anything WW has done.

Originally posted by h1a8


As far as skillful, I trained in fighting years ago. So I'm familiar with MA and some MMA. We can compare move by move if you want. Just give a move (attack or defense) by Shuri that is as skillful or more than anything WW has done.


No you haven't. Because if you did you wouldn't think fancy moves were indicative of combat skill.

Originally posted by Darth Thor
And by one level you mean not capable of hurting him, and being a statue to him if he uses his top speed ?

Think thats a few levels

she made him wince with a headbutt

and she took his initial headbutt with little effect.

thats something id say lol

Originally posted by h1a8
He mentioned "fancy moves" as a strawman.
Fancy is a matter of opinion.
For example, a spinning back kick could be fancy to someone but basic and effective to another.

Using "fancy" as an objective argument is flawed.
I mean....this is what you agreed:


Originally posted by h1a8
Yup, fancy kicks and fancy maneuvers determines fighting skill. Any other suggestions?

Originally posted by relentless1
she made him wince with a headbutt

and she took his initial headbutt with little effect.

thats something id say lol


It's something for sure. But Think it's more than 1 level lol

Originally posted by h1a8
Talocans was only shown to be stronger and more durable than humans and have siren abilities. They were not shown have superspeed or exceptional h2h fighting abilities. The general (a human) matched well with Attuma and was beating several of them simultaneously.
Shuri is physically superior to the general. You think WW won't own their asses?

As far as skillful, I trained in fighting years ago. So I'm familiar with MA and some MMA. We can compare move by move if you want. Just give a move (attack or defense) by Shuri that is as skillful or more than anything WW has done.

Talk is cheap, nobody here will ever believe you're actually a trained martial artist. After all, earlier in this thread you declared that fancy kicks does indeed prove fighting skill.

Now answer the question: What metric are you using to declare that WW's moves are more skillful than Shuri's?

Also, yes Shuri might be stronger than the Talocans but WW is massively stronger than the humans she regularly beats up on.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Talk is cheap, nobody here will ever believe you're actually a trained martial artist. After all, earlier in this thread you declared that fancy kicks does indeed prove fighting skill.

Now answer the question: What metric are you using to declare that WW's moves are more skillful than Shuri's?

Also, yes Shuri might be stronger than the Talocans but WW is massively stronger than the humans she regularly beats up on.

The metric is my judgment.
But know that you are moving the goal post.
Experience and training is a factor too.


Here are all factors
1. Who you fought and your performance against them
2. Judgement on skilled attacks and defense moves.
3. Combat relexes.
4. Experience
5. Training

Originally posted by h1a8
The metric is my judgment.


In other words, you don't actually have a valid metric. You're saying WW is more skilled based on nothing more than because you wish it to be so.

Originally posted by FrothByte
In other words, you don't actually have a valid metric. You're saying WW is more skilled based on nothing more than because you wish it to be so.

Is there an actual mathematical metric that measures how skilled attacks and defense moves are?

Remember this isn't the only factor. Ignoring that is trolling.

Originally posted by h1a8
Is there an actual mathematical metric that measures how skilled attacks and defense moves are?

Remember this isn't the only factor. Ignoring that is trolling.

Well there has to be a metric you're using to determine why you think WW is so much more skilled than Namor or Shuri right?

Originally you said it was based on how fancy their moves were. Do you no longer support this notion?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Well there has to be a metric you're using to determine why you think WW is so much more skilled than Namor or Shuri right?

Originally you said it was based on how fancy their moves were. Do you no longer support this notion?

It's not a mathematical one. Thus it's a judgement one.
If I show you two martial art films that display characters performing moves then it wouldn't be hard to determine who's more skilled (especially when there is a big difference). And especially if you have any experience with fighting.

WW is significantly more skilled than Namor because Namor has almost 0 skill. WW is slightly more skilled than Shuri.

Originally posted by h1a8
It's not a mathematical one. Thus it's a judgement one.
If I show you two martial art films that display characters performing moves then it wouldn't be hard to determine who's more skilled (especially when there is a big difference). And especially if you have any experience with fighting.

WW is significantly more skilled than Namor because Namor has almost 0 skill. WW is slightly more skilled than Shuri.

It doesn't need to be a mathematical one, just something that's objective and consistent.

Right now, all you're really saying is it's based on nothing more than your opinion... which is something that nobody respects here.

Originally posted by FrothByte
It doesn't need to be a mathematical one, just something that's objective and consistent.

Right now, all you're really saying is it's based on nothing more than your opinion... which is something that nobody respects here.
Like I said, that's just one factor. You have to factor in other evidence.
You keep ignoring that.


At this point you are arguing against common sense.

It's one thing to try to win a debate and another just trying to find truth.
Any reasonable person would say that WW is more skilled than Namor. That's not a stretch. For you to not think so shows bias.
Namor was not shown to have any formal training in fighting (like WW and Aquaman) and didn't do any attacks or defense moves that gives us the suspension of disbelief that he has fighting skill better than say an expert fighter.

Originally posted by h1a8
Like I said, that's just one factor. You have to factor in other evidence.
You keep ignoring that.


At this point you are arguing against common sense.

It's one thing to try to win a debate and another just trying to find truth.
Any reasonable person would say that WW is more skilled than Namor. That's not a stretch. For you to not think so shows bias.
Namor was not shown to have any formal training in fighting (like WW and Aquaman) and didn't do any attacks or defense moves that gives us the suspension of disbelief that he has fighting skill better than say an expert fighter.

Of course you have to factor in other evidence, except that wasn't your original stance now was it?

Do you now agree that simply having fancy moves is not enough proof on its own to determine skill?

Originally posted by FrothByte
Of course you have to factor in other evidence, except that wasn't your original stance now was it?

Do you now agree that simply having fancy moves is not enough proof on its own to determine skill?

That was my latest stance. Who cares what my original stance was?
It's all about a person's CURRENT STANCE.

If attacking and defense moves is the only factor then we judge based off that. In most cases everyone will agree, unless it's close enough. In that case, skill is a wash.

Originally posted by h1a8
That was my latest stance. Who cares what my original stance was?
It's all about a person's CURRENT STANCE.

If attacking and defense moves is the only factor then we judge based off that. In most cases everyone will agree, unless it's close enough. In that case, skill is a wash.

We care, because it shows that you chop and change stances when it suits you.

This, it's a waste of time trying to engage you in meaningful debate, because all you do is change your argument to assuage your ego and avoid saying 'I'm wrong'.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
We care, because it shows that you chop and change stances when it suits you.

This, it's a waste of time trying to engage you in meaningful debate, because all you do is change your argument to assuage your ego and avoid saying 'I'm wrong'.

We all change stances to continue the debate, especially you lol

But here's the kicker : In many cases I don't actually change my stance. I just pursue a more effective one.

Originally posted by h1a8
We all change stances to continue the debate, especially you lol

But here's the kicker : In many cases I don't actually change my stance. I just pursue a more effective one.

So you admit that your original stance was ineffective which is why you pursued a different one?

Originally posted by FrothByte
So you admit that your original stance was ineffective which is why you pursued a different one? No
I still have the same stance.
We judge by the moves if there is no other evidence.

Originally posted by h1a8
No
I still have the same stance.
We judge by the moves if there is no other evidence.

So based on moves alone, why do you insist that WW's moves were more skilled than Shuri?

Originally posted by FrothByte
So based on moves alone, why do you insist that WW's moves were more skilled than Shuri?
When we talk about moves I'm referring to attacks or defense moves (blocks, parries, etc)

Shuri did some backflips. But her attacks (punches and kicks) didn't seem very skilled (she Telegraph on some attacks). Normal claw swings, a generic jump kick with both legs, and an attempted spin elbow (telegraphed). She has good agility and flexibility though.


WW showed great kicking skills, parrying and grappling skills, very effective moves if she were in a real fight.

Flashy moves aren't necessarily effective in a real fight.
WW was more brutal and to the point and not as flashy as you are thinking.
Shuri was more Flashy with the flipping but nothing overly effective if imagined in a real fight..

All in all I would say Shuri is definitely a skilled fighter and WW is not massively more skilled than her.

Originally posted by h1a8
We all change stances to continue the debate, especially you lol

But here's the kicker : In many cases I don't actually change my stance. I just pursue a more effective one.
Well I'm talking about THIS instance.

YOU'RE the one who based skill on flashy appearances, not us

Originally posted by h1a8
That was my latest stance. Who cares what my original stance was?
It's all about a person's CURRENT STANCE.
Originally posted by h1a8
We all change stances to continue the debate, especially you lol

But here's the kicker : In many cases I don't actually change my stance. I just pursue a more effective one. Who cares about my old stance when I changed to a new stance?

But also... I actually didn't change my stance at all.

https://media.tenor.com/pUW_A10-46MAAAAC/toddlers-and-tiaras-big-grin.gif

It's a flashy kicker, alright.

Not saying it's effective or particularly skilled, mind.

Oh well I'm trained in internet douchery and I have years of experience. Allow me to analyze these stances and give you an objective assessment of the skill involved:

Originally posted by h1a8
That was my latest stance. Who cares what my original stance was?

Originally posted by h1a8
I still have the same stance.
mmm

Hmm, no sir, not very skilled at all

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Well I'm talking about THIS instance.

YOU'RE the one who based skill on flashy appearances, not us

You are creating strawman by inserting incorrect terms (flashy, fancy, etc). My argument is judging the moves (attack and defense). whether you (not me) think they are flashy or not is irrelevant.

Here's proof. Van Damme is a very flashy actor. Yet he has the worst skill Ive ever seen for the star of a MA movie. Flashy =/= skilled

Originally posted by h1a8
When we talk about moves I'm referring to attacks or defense moves (blocks, parries, etc)

Shuri did some backflips. But her attacks (punches and kicks) didn't seem very skilled (she Telegraph on some attacks). Normal claw swings, a generic jump kick with both legs, and an attempted spin elbow (telegraphed). She has good agility and flexibility though.


WW showed great kicking skills, parrying and grappling skills, very effective moves if she were in a real fight.

Flashy moves aren't necessarily effective in a real fight.
WW was more brutal and to the point and not as flashy as you are thinking.
Shuri was more Flashy with the flipping but nothing overly effective if imagined in a real fight..

All in all I would say Shuri is definitely a skilled fighter and WW is not massively more skilled than her.

Then using your newfound logic, you must agree that Namor is more skilled than both WW and Shuri since he doesn't use flashy moves but is instead more brutal and to the point.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Wonder Woman doesn't exactly have clean wins over anyone as powerful as Namor. Not in a straight-up, fair match anyway.

She won against Luddendorf but he's not at Namor's level, and she did struggle with him.

She won against Ares via plot device.
She had help against Doomsday and Steppenwolf.
She was completely helpless against Superman.
She defeated Cheetah but Cheetah doesn't have enough feats to determine whether she's as high of a threat as Namor.

I'd say this match is a tie. Wonder Woman was not only fast enough and skilled enough to fight Doomsday 1 on 1 but she was even able to grievously wound him multiple times while taking minor damage in return. She only failed to kill him due to his regenerative powers.

We haven't seen Namor do anything even close to as impressive.

edit- This entire debate about skill is ridiculous and you're all autistic. There is no way to determine a completely arbitrary metric like "skill" here based just off choreography and hearsay. Namor has fought literally only a single superpowered character onscreen, a character who has first and foremost been a scientist and has never had any pedigree as a skilled martial artist, in a situation with unusual circumstances (depowered from the heat). We have no way of establishing an actual baseline for Namor's skill so how can we possibly make a value judgement between him and Wonder Woman? Stop being numbskulls. Diana would shit on Namor because based on what we've seen thus far she has superior strength, speed and durability feats. Who's the more skilled combatant is irrelevant just like Diana's superior skill is irrelevant against Superman.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Wonder Woman was not only fast enough and skilled enough to fight Doomsday 1 on 1 but she was even able to grievously wound him multiple times while taking minor damage in return. She only failed to kill him due to his regenerative powers.

We haven't seen Namor do anything even close to as impressive.

edit- This entire debate about skill is ridiculous and you're all autistic. There is no way to determine a completely arbitrary metric like "skill" here based just off choreography and hearsay. Namor has fought literally only a single superpowered character onscreen, a character who has first and foremost been a scientist and has never had any pedigree as a skilled martial artist, in a situation with unusual circumstances (depowered from the heat). We have no way of establishing an actual baseline for Namor's skill so how can we possibly make a value judgement between him and Wonder Woman? Stop being numbskulls. Diana would shit on Namor because based on what we've seen thus far she has superior strength, speed and durability feats. Who's the more skilled combatant is irrelevant just like Diana's superior skill is irrelevant against Superman. Don't tell Stoic skill doesn't matter in these circumstances

Originally posted by FrothByte
Then using your newfound logic, you must agree that Namor is more skilled than both WW and Shuri since he doesn't use flashy moves but is instead more brutal and to the point. Nowhere did I say being more brutal and to the point = more skilled.
My point it is possible to have more skill without being flashy.

With that said, the rest of my post stands since you didn't address it.

Originally posted by h1a8
You are creating strawman by inserting incorrect terms (flashy, fancy, etc). My argument is judging the moves (attack and defense). whether you (not me) think they are flashy or not is irrelevant.

Here's proof. Van Damme is a very flashy actor. Yet he has the worst skill Ive ever seen for the star of a MA movie. Flashy =/= skilled

Where did I insert those terms in YOUR post?

Originally posted by h1a8
Yup, fancy kicks and fancy maneuvers determines fighting skill. Any other suggestions?

YOU typednthat, did you not?

https://i.ibb.co/XstKphZ/729hgc.jpg

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Wonder Woman was not only fast enough and skilled enough to fight Doomsday 1 on 1 but she was even able to grievously wound him multiple times while taking minor damage in return. She only failed to kill him due to his regenerative powers.


She was also getting thumped by Steppenwolf. Are we to assume Steppenwolf can manhandle Doomsday? Superman did, but yet he was getting thumped by Doomsday.

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/XstKphZ/729hgc.jpg

Originally posted by StiltmanFTW
https://i.ibb.co/XstKphZ/729hgc.jpg


It's funny because it's reality.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Where did I insert those terms in YOUR post?



YOU typednthat, did you not?
I guess you misunderstood the post.
It doesn't mean that fancy moves are the ONLY type of moves (or evidences) that determines fighting skill.

Fancy moves determine fighting skill as well as other moves.
Other evidence (like who you beat) also determines fighting skill.

Originally posted by Tzeentch
Wonder Woman was not only fast enough and skilled enough to fight Doomsday 1 on 1 but she was even able to grievously wound him multiple times while taking minor damage in return. She only failed to kill him due to his regenerative powers.

We haven't seen Namor do anything even close to as impressive.

edit- This entire debate about skill is ridiculous and you're all autistic. There is no way to determine a completely arbitrary metric like "skill" here based just off choreography and hearsay. Namor has fought literally only a single superpowered character onscreen, a character who has first and foremost been a scientist and has never had any pedigree as a skilled martial artist, in a situation with unusual circumstances (depowered from the heat). We have no way of establishing an actual baseline for Namor's skill so how can we possibly make a value judgement between him and Wonder Woman? Stop being numbskulls. Diana would shit on Namor because based on what we've seen thus far she has superior strength, speed and durability feats. Who's the more skilled combatant is irrelevant just like Diana's superior skill is irrelevant against Superman.

Skill is normally determined the same way we do it in real life: by the caliber of opponents you defeat in a fair, one on one match and by the ease of which you defeat them.

Diana only went 1 on 1 with Doomsday for brief periods and she was mostly getting thrown around. Yes, she did cut off his hand but that was because she was armed and DD was unarmed. Heck, she had both sword AND shield (plus bracelets) while DD was only using his fists.

I mean, if I fought Brock Lesnar and was able to stab him because I have a knife while he was unarmed, is that supposed to be proof that I'm a highly skilled fighter?

Originally posted by h1a8
I guess you misunderstood the post.
It doesn't mean that fancy moves are the ONLY type of moves (or evidences) that determines fighting skill.

Fancy moves determine fighting skill as well as other moves.
Other evidence (like who you beat) also determines fighting skill.

So who exactly did WW beat in a fair match using her skills that makes you consider her more skilled?

Originally posted by FrothByte
So who exactly did WW beat in a fair match using her skills that makes you consider her more skilled?

You have dementia.
We already went over why I said WW is more skilled. You forget that fast?

I gave general rules for determining skill, not specific ones for this particular fight.

The key is OR and not AND

Originally posted by h1a8
You have dementia.
We already went over why I said WW is more skilled. You forget that fast?

I gave general rules for determining skill, not specific ones for this particular fight.

The key is OR and not AND

As you yourself admitted, you never actually gave specific proof to back up your claims. Thus we go around and around again till you actually provide something concrete.

Originally posted by FrothByte
As you yourself admitted, you never actually gave specific proof to back up your claims. Thus we go around and around again till you actually provide something concrete.

The general rules for determining skill
1. Who a character beats in a fair fight
2. Experience and Training of a character
3. Grading the actual moves and techniques a character applies in combat.

Since 1 doesn't apply in this particular match then we can use 2 and 3.
WW has thousands of years fighting experience and training so she gets 2.

WW has the advantage in 3 since her moves (attacks) and defense techniques appear to be more skillful as it would apply to a real fight. Shuri did nothing out of the ordinary when it came to attacking or defending (generic claw swings, telegraphed spinning elbow, basic 2-legged jump kick, etc). She did a couple of pretty flips though. I'm pretty sure that shit won't really work in a real fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
The general rules for determining skill
1. Who a character beats in a fair fight
2. Experience and Training of a character
3. Grading the actual moves and techniques a character applies in combat.

Since 1 doesn't apply in this particular match then we can use 2 and 3.
WW has thousands of years fighting experience and training so she gets 2.

WW has the advantage in 3 since her moves (attacks) and defense techniques appear to be more skillful as it would apply to a real fight. Shuri did nothing out of the ordinary when it came to attacking or defending (generic claw swings, telegraphed spinning elbow, basic 2-legged jump kick, etc). She did a couple of pretty flips though. I'm pretty sure that shit won't really work in a real fight.

Dude, majority of the moves WW pulled off wouldn't work in a real fight as well. Show me which moves from WW makes you think she's a lot more skilled than Shuri. As in show me the actual clip and tell me why those are better, don't just keep repeating that they're better.

Wonder Woman beat a literal God. Fought against Superman, Doomsday and Steppenwolf. Trained as a warrior since she was a child and is approximately 5,000 years old.

And we're wondering if she can beat a guy who got beat by Shuri.

OK then.

Originally posted by Jaden_3.0
Wonder Woman beat a literal God. Fought against Superman, Doomsday and Steppenwolf. Trained as a warrior since she was a child and is approximately 5,000 years old.

And we're wondering if she can beat a guy who got beat by Shuri.

OK then.

She also struggled against Luddendorf and even against Cheetah who didn't have a single day's worth of fight training.

Originally posted by FrothByte
She also struggled against Luddendorf and even against Cheetah who didn't have a single day's worth of fight training.

Neither did Shuri. Her suddenly being able to fight is like Q suddenly and inexplicably being able to do what James Bond does.

Originally posted by Jaden_3.0
Neither did Shuri. Her suddenly being able to fight is like Q suddenly and inexplicably being able to do what James Bond does.

Agreed. Which is why I don't think we can really claim with any cerainty which one of them is more skilled than the other.

Originally posted by FrothByte
Agreed. Which is why I don't think we can really claim with any cerainty which one of them is more skilled than the other.

Lucky for me I'm saying which one would win then.

WW Stomps.