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Taking into consideration, that Odin was more powerful in that era than in more recent times.

1. He does about as well or better.
2. He does worse, and is KO'd like the Surfer.
3. He is annihilated.

Explain your choice if you like.

He does about as well as Surfer, IMHO. Odin was written as comfortably above Herald/Trans level beings.

Going with no.2 Orion is not as powerful as Thanos.

Originally posted by zopzop
He does about as well as Surfer, IMHO. Odin was written as comfortably above Herald/Trans level beings. Well, Orions a god and comfortably above Surfer too, but Odin being a skyfather and generally having some pretty big feats back then, I'd probably still give him the nod.

Orion does worse than Surfer.

Originally posted by Juntai
Well, Orions a god and comfortably above Surfer too, but Odin being a skyfather and generally having some pretty big feats back then, I'd probably still give him the nod. What puts Orion above Surfer?

Originally posted by lawest9
Is it because he is a DC character that you think it puts Orion above Surfer?

Yes!!!

Orion has a pussy after this fight.

Originally posted by Thinkerer
Orion has a pussy after this fight.

Surfer survived Knull. Huge feat. You've given Orion a decent report card, but how well does he do against Herald level opponents? Who's power shook the universe? The Golem?

Originally posted by Stoic
Surfer survived Knull. Huge feat. You've given Orion a decent report card, but how well does he do against Herald level opponents? Who's power shook the universe? The Golem?

He's not saying Orion wins. He's actually saying the opposite.

Lmao at the reading and quoting in this thread.

Yeah I was on the move and quoted the wrong post.

I question Orion's total superiority of the DC herald level tier, both hero and villain.

Orion rips Odin's heart out.

Originally posted by abhilegend
Orion rips Odin's heart out.

this

No way.

Juntai, Superman did not ever fight Orion on the same level that he fought Doomsday. I'd wager that Knull would brutalize the Darkseid that Orion faced, and go a step further and say that he'd do the same to Orion

Surfer survived his encounter.

I think your overselling Orion, a d could see Shazam, Wonder Woman, Black Adam, and a few others fight Superman for an entire issue. Shazam already faced an eclipsed Superman.

The Surfer is heavily nerfed in a comic setting. The power cosmic is supposed to actually allow the user to see the future, but they don't do that with the Surfer because no one would ever survive an encounter with him.

All of this talk of Orion being above the Surfer is bunk. In a forum Battle where both opponents are fighting to the best of their abilities, the Surfer could literally phase his hand into Orion's chest and pull his heart out.

You want to pay close attention to what the Mother Box can do. You also need to pay close attention to what the Surfer alone with the power cosmic can do in battle.

Thanos is able to not only match the heralds of Galactus but also defeat them because he also uses the power cosmic as well as dark arts like magic, as well as telepathy.

It's harder to stop someone that is going berserk when the ones trying to stop them are trying not to kill you. This is what you see in comics. Darkseid being above Thanos has yet to be seen. I'm talking about the avatars that show up and do battle with the Justice league. Not this mysterious Darkseid that no one has ever truly seen.

Originally posted by Stoic
The Surfer is heavily nerfed in a comic setting. The power cosmic is supposed to actually allow the user to see the future, but they don't do that with the Surfer because no one would ever survive an encounter with him.

All of this talk of Orion being above the Surfer is bunk. In a forum Battle where both opponents are fighting to the best of their abilities, the Surfer could literally phase his hand into Orion's chest and pull his heart out.

You want to pay close attention to what the Mother Box can do. You also need to pay close attention to what the Surfer alone with the power cosmic can do in battle.

Thanos is able to not only match the heralds of Galactus but also defeat them because he also uses the power cosmic as well as dark arts like magic, as well as telepathy.

It's harder to stop someone that is going berserk when the ones trying to stop them are trying not to kill you. This is what you see in comics. Darkseid being above Thanos has yet to be seen. I'm talking about the avatars that show up and do battle with the Justice league. Not this mysterious Darkseid that no one has ever truly seen.

So you simultaneously talk about how Surfer is nerfed in comics....

And are blind to the New Gods also being nerfed in comics?

^ Darkseid's feats and scaling are far beyond Odin's? Please elaborate.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So you simultaneously talk about how Surfer is nerfed in comics....

And are blind to the New Gods also being nerfed in comics?

Orion is organic, and the Surfer like the Mother Box is super science. The Surfer can harm Orion alone. This is why I place Orion squarely within the high herald tier. What he did to an avatar of his father has no bearing upon how he would scale to Odin, and or more importantly to Thanos.

Originally posted by Stoic
Orion is organic, and the Surfer like the Mother Box is super science. The Surfer can harm Orion alone. This is why I place Orion squarely within the high herald tier. What he did to an avatar of his father has no bearing upon how he would scale to Odin, and or more importantly to Thanos.

See, if you're taking each character to their supposed ultimate levels, then Orion isn't organic - he's a literal concept/idea. That's before you take the Motherbox into account.

^ How often has Orion's alleged existence as a concept/idea made a difference in his fights?

^ What feats are you referring to that are divorced from alternate-universe versions, the ALE or the conglomerated True Form Darkseid?

Those are things that are never mentioned. What I see when I see Orion is a high herald when translated to the regular non new gods universe. Darkseid avatars translate roughly to trans tier level characters.

Thanos literally remained alive retrieving the Regulator., which shows that it takes a helluva lot of damage to put him down.

Originally posted by ODG
^ How often has Orion's alleged existence as a concept/idea made a difference in his fights?

Not the point.

Stoic is saying (rightly) that the Surfer is always nerfed in comics, that he is essentially an avatar for the Power Cosmic, a quasi mystical building block of the universe and thus, should have zero limits in a forum fight.

I am saying well if we're giving him this zero limits (despite this never happening in comics) based on his 'status', then the same status should be given to Orion.

It's a thing that Stoic and I have been having over the course of many threads.

Except Orion isn't the living embodiment of super science, nor does either of them have to hold back in a forum fight. The Surfer can cross distance faster than Orion can blink. Has Surfer ever shown the ability to become intangible? Has he ever created a star? Can he affect Onions very organic body? Is Orion immune to the power cosmic? The power cosmic also grants cosmic awareness. These are just a few things that are rarely showcased, however it doesn't mean that he lacks the ability just that plot dictates what characters do in comics. It's more like the Orion supporters saying that the Surfer could do nothing to Orion.

Originally posted by Stoic
Except Orion isn't the living embodiment of super science, nor does either of them have to hold back in a forum fight. The Surfer can cross distance faster than Orion can blink. Has Surfer ever shown the ability to become intangible? Has he ever created a star? Can he affect Onions very organic body? Is Orion immune to the power cosmic? The power cosmic also grants cosmic awareness. These are just a few things that are rarely showcased, however it doesn't mean that he lacks the ability just that plot dictates what characters do in comics. It's more like the Orion supporters saying that the Surfer could do nothing to Orion.

But he IS a living idea. That's your problem here - Orion is, if we are attributing status and using that, a living concept.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85


https://i.imgur.com/4zsjdUX.jpg

...,.....

https://i.imgur.com/EaA0Elc.jpg

The New Gods are actual thoughts and concepts. Archetypes. The bullet he shot Orion with, for example, as Bats explains, was the very IDEA of a bullet, was every bullet made and will be made.

Orion IS the idea of war. He isn't just the god of war, he IS war. Now, how that helps in a forum fight is not the point I am making - the point I'm making is that we shouldn't just rely on what characters 'are'.

The New Gods are gods, just like the name suggests.

Even Darkseid referred to himself as the "Evil's God" in Justice League Incarnate (2021) #4.

https://i.imgur.com/CVDkJwXm.jpeg

But what they are, or allege to be, represent, or embody shouldn't matter. Batman could be referred to as "justice incarnate," and it wouldn't change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a bat-inspired costume.

Originally posted by Astner
The New Gods are gods, just like the name suggests.

Even Darkseid referred to himself as the "Evil's God" in Justice League Incarnate (2021) #4.

https://i.imgur.com/CVDkJwXm.jpeg

But what they are, or allege to be, represent, or embody shouldn't matter. Batman could be referred to as "justice incarnate," and it wouldn't change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a bat-inspired costume.

My point exactly.

Stoic: Surfer is the embodiment of the Power Cosmic, science incarnate. Orion is just an organic being. Surfer wins.

Me: Well, Orion is war incarnate, not just an organic being. Attributing a win just because of what Surfer is meant to be, is incorrect.

Originally posted by Astner
The New Gods are gods, just like the name suggests.

Even Darkseid referred to himself as the "Evil's God" in Justice League Incarnate (2021) #4.

https://i.imgur.com/CVDkJwXm.jpeg

But what they are, or allege to be, represent, or embody shouldn't matter. Batman could be referred to as "justice incarnate," and it wouldn't change the fact that he's just a guy dressed up in a bat-inspired costume.
Except Orion has literally shown he's more than just a physical entity.

https://i.imgur.com/CYhjMo6.jpg

That's more than anything Surfer has shown.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he IS a living idea. That's your problem here - Orion is, if we are attributing status and using that, a living concept.



Orion IS the idea of war. He isn't just the god of war, he IS war. Now, how that helps in a forum fight is not the point I am making - the point I'm making is that we shouldn't just rely on what characters 'are'.

When does all of that matter in his physical battles? ODG asked you that, but you decided that it was irrelevant. I think that it's very relevant, because that didn't matter during Hardcore Station at all. Orion was tossed about like all other heros. Would any of that matter if Orion fought Doomsday? Of course not, he'd get bludgeoned like everyone else.

Originally posted by Stoic
When does all of that matter in his physical battles? ODG asked you that, but you decided that it was irrelevant. I think that it's very relevant, because that didn't matter during Hardcore Station at all. Orion was tossed about like all other heros. Would any of that matter if Orion fought Doomsday? Of course not, he'd get bludgeoned like everyone else.

Because he's always nerfed in comics, just the exact same argument you're using for Surfer here. See the top of this page, your own post.

Same way Surfer doesn't do half the things you think he should be able to do in comics.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he IS a living idea. That's your problem here - Orion is, if we are attributing status and using that, a living concept.

Orion IS the idea of war. He isn't just the god of war, he IS war. Now, how that helps in a forum fight is not the point I am making - the point I'm making is that we shouldn't just rely on what characters 'are'. So I pose the question again: How often has Orion's alleged existence as a concept/idea made a difference in his fights?

Zero difference.