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Fight takes place in a bar.

Scenario 1: no weapons, but objects in the environment can be used as weapons.
Scenario 2: both have a Glock and tactical knife.

Who wins?

Bump

Frank wins.

Robert in 1 and Frank in 2

Punisher in both.

Originally posted by riv6672
Punisher in both. Why do you think Frank can beat Robert in h2h and using stray objects lying around?

Because the Punisher operates on a different, one might even say, comic book-y level than Robert.

Originally posted by riv6672
Because the Punisher operates on a different, one might even say, comic book-y level than Robert.
You are not answering the question but talking around it.
Why does he operate on a different level than Robert when it comes to h2h or using random items lying around?
Use feats.

Frank has better damage soak and strength to make up for any skill gap that MIGHT exist.

Originally posted by h1a8
Robert in 1 and Frank in 2

What makes you say that?

Yeah Frank in both

Punisher seems more stronger, but when it comes to strategy and skill in a straight up H2H or knife fight, Robert def has him beat imo. But not sure if its enough.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
Frank has better damage soak and strength to make up for any skill gap that MIGHT exist.



What makes you say that?

I disagree with his damage soak. DD is a soft hitter on average. He has no ko power most of the time.

He's not that much stronger, imo. Especially at striking. Not that strength will play a role here.

Plus we are talking about random things lying around. Robert can make many things potent weapons.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree with his damage soak. DD is a soft hitter on average. He has no ko power most of the time.

He's not that much stronger, imo. Especially at striking. Not that strength will play a role here.

Plus we are talking about random things lying around. Robert can make many things potent weapons.

He was shot and was still fighting. He didn't just fight SD, he fought Kingpin too

He was hurting DD through his armoured helmet.

And I suppose Punisher can't?

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree with his damage soak. DD is a soft hitter on average. He has no ko power most of the time.

He's not that much stronger, imo. Especially at striking. Not that strength will play a role here.

Plus we are talking about random things lying around. Robert can make many things potent weapons.

Here is Punisher against a gang of thugs, all of whom are armed with potent weapons. Note he is even stabbed through the arm at the start of the fight:

M8AvWkrppsg

Spoiler: he wins.

As for DD being a soft hitter, here he kicked Frank off a roof, he smacks a roof edge on the way down, then hits the floor. He just gets up and continues to fight DD:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11117/111173561/6270252-5807280476-giphy.gif

He gets shot through the arm:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11117/111173561/6638960-4066265736-giphy.gif

Then gets up IMMEDIATELY and keeps fighting:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11117/111173561/6638971-0664914452-giphy.gif

Note how he uses the same shot arm to block DD's punches.

Then uses the same arm to carry DD (who is wearing body armour, whilst he is in street clothes) and throw him through a roof:
https://comicvine.gamespot.com/a/uploads/original/11117/111173561/6639010-4698684206-giphy.gif

(this doubles as a strength feat - imagine carrying a grown man in full body armour whilst you have a shot bicep)

And of course, him getting punched repeatedly by Kingpin, no soft hitter himself:
vyqXwlkBjpA

Note that this beating from Kingpin takes place AFTER his prison fight, so he's nursing a stabbed arm here plus other injuries.

But by all means, showcase McCall's durability. His strengths are in preptime and traps etc, not in random brawling street fights which is what both rounds are here.

Originally posted by h1a8
I disagree with his damage soak.

What are you talking about? Frank has insane durability when it comes to a street tier character.

DD is a soft hitter ON AVERAGE. He often hits like abitc
Being stabbed or shot has nothing to do with being koed or shot/stabbed in a vital area.
Kingpin sucked imo.

Originally posted by h1a8
DD is a soft hitter ON AVERAGE.
Being stabbed or shot has nothing to do with being koed or shot/stabbed in a vital area.
Kingpin sucked imo.

So nothing about McCall's durability. Thanks.

You move the goalposts now to talk about vital areas.

Your opinion means nothing to me, really.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So nothing about McCall's durability. Thanks.

You move the goalposts now to talk about vital areas.

Your opinion means nothing to me, really.

I never made any claims about Roberts durability. They both have typical human durability

I see I have to walk you through things and spoon-feed you.

So I said Punisher had better damage soak.

You disagree with that.

So either Robert has the same or greater than Punisher's damage soak.

So prove it. Simple.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I see I have to walk you through things and spoon-feed you.

So I said Punisher had better damage soak.

You disagree with that.

So either Robert has the same or greater than Punisher's damage soak.

So prove it. Simple.

I was referring to the type of damage soak relevant to this fight (being shot or stabbed in a vital area).

Being stabbed through non vital area is immaterial. Being hit by soft attacks is immaterial.

For the sake of argument. Let's say it is slightly more difficult to ko Frank vs Robert with the same punches to the face. Then yes Frank has better damage soak. But it's not by a lot since both are still typical humans.

Plus physics may be different from movie to movie (as explained by Last Action in hero). One movie a character has to punch a typical human a bunch of times to put them down (Van Damme movies and DD show). In others, the physics are closer to real life (1-3 good hits create a daze effect)

Originally posted by h1a8
I was referring to the type of damage soak relevant to this fight (being shot or stabbed in a vital area).

So moving the goalposts. Gotcha (in more ways than one).


Then by all means, showcase Robert's durability. Frank walked away from an ambulance crash with a dislocated shoulder (he was handcuffed inside) and just relocated it and walked off.


Good to see your concession. So firstly, you are just relying on definitions rather than what they've actually done. Which is wrong. Secondly, this is an interesting point, because of your next point....


So your point about being a 'typical human' is meaningless, as the rules of physics may differ. IOW your post is meaningless. Someone being a 'typical human' in one universe would absolutely have a greater durability than a 'typical human' in another universe - because their rules of physics may/would differ.

You basically got called out and your error was pointed out. But you haven't answered my question - what would McCall do that would net him the win in Round 1? Bearing in mind the rules of physics (as you say) may differ in the MCU vs the Equalizer U.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85

So moving the goalposts. Gotcha (in more ways than one).


Then by all means, showcase Robert's durability. Frank walked away from an ambulance crash with a dislocated shoulder (he was handcuffed inside) and just relocated it and walked off.


Good to see your concession. So firstly, you are just relying on definitions rather than what they've actually done. Which is wrong. Secondly, this is an interesting point, because of your next point....


So your point about being a 'typical human' is meaningless, as the rules of physics may differ. IOW your post is meaningless. Someone being a 'typical human' in one universe would absolutely have a greater durability than a 'typical human' in another universe - because their rules of physics may/would differ.

You basically got called out and your error was pointed out. But you haven't answered my question - what would McCall do that would net him the win in Round 1? Bearing in mind the rules of physics (as you say) may differ in the MCU vs the Equalizer U.

Choosing not to argue stuff that's irrelevant to this fight is hardly moving the goalposts. Remember I said, "relevant to this fight."

Robert attacking Frank (primarily stabbing or shooting him) in a vital area will net him the win. Slight Damage soak advantage to being punched in the face wouldn't change that.

If Robert were in the MCU the he would most likely be subject to their physics. He would probably have to strike someone a bunch of times to ko them (plot device controlled). Or be hit a bunch of times before he is koed (again plot device controlled). Vice versa, it would take only a few good hits to ko Frank in Equalizer universe.

How would any of the feats you named for Frank help him, other than withstanding a few more punches to the face?

McCall has already shown how much damage he can do in a bar with improvised weapons. He's done it at least twice, killing 6 or more guys in the span of a few seconds without taking a single hit. A slugfest is not his friend against Frank, but with weapons, Robert will turn him into a pincushion.

Originally posted by KingD19
McCall has already shown how much damage he can do in a bar with improvised weapons. He's done it at least twice, killing 6 or more guys in the span of a few seconds without taking a single hit. A slugfest is not his friend against Frank, but with weapons, Robert will turn him into a pincushion. That's the reason why I say he wins 1st round, because of the items.

But I believe Frank wins 2nd round

Originally posted by h1a8

Kingpin sucked imo.

Good lord

Originally posted by h1a8
Choosing not to argue stuff that's irrelevant to this fight is hardly moving the goalposts. Remember I said, "relevant to this fight."

Robert attacking Frank (primarily stabbing or shooting him) in a vital area will net him the win. Slight Damage soak advantage to being punched in the face wouldn't change that.

If Robert were in the MCU the he would most likely be subject to their physics. He would probably have to strike someone a bunch of times to ko them (plot device controlled). Or be hit a bunch of times before he is koed (again plot device controlled). Vice versa, it would take only a few good hits to ko Frank in Equalizer universe.

How would any of the feats you named for Frank help him, other than withstanding a few more punches to the face?

I assumed the same rules as the comic versus forum i.e. it's a neutral universe they fight in, both bound to the rules of their universe i.e. Punisher has his more fantastical durability and needs to be hit several times before he goes down.
OTOH, Robert will go down after 1-3 good hits.

It would help him by trapping Robert. Remember the last fight he had in Equalizer 1 with the guy who had great durability. Robert picks up a makeshift weapon, stabs Frank, Frank uses his arm to block and take the hit, the weapon gets lodged in his arm....but Frank just grunts/roars, and his fighting ability isn't hampered in the least as he stabs/punches Robert, who isn't used to meeting someone like Frank.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
I assumed the same rules as the comic versus forum i.e. it's a neutral universe they fight in, both bound to the rules of their universe i.e. Punisher has his more fantastical durability and needs to be hit several times before he goes down.
OTOH, Robert will go down after 1-3 good hits.

It would help him by trapping Robert. Remember the last fight he had in Equalizer 1 with the guy who had great durability. Robert picks up a makeshift weapon, stabs Frank, Frank uses his arm to block and take the hit, the weapon gets lodged in his arm....but Frank just grunts/roars, and his fighting ability isn't hampered in the least as he stabs/punches Robert, who isn't used to meeting someone like Frank.
I argue that Robert has fantastic striking ability. Able to ko and defeat humans with a few hits. It goes two ways.

If Robert doesn't land a vital shot then yes Frank will keep on fighting. I agree with that.
Now if this was strick h2h then I say toss up or edge to Frank. But items that can used lying around then I say Robert has the edge.

Originally posted by h1a8
I argue that Robert has fantastic striking ability. Able to ko and defeat humans with a few hits. It goes two ways.

If Robert doesn't land a vital shot then yes Frank will keep on fighting. I agree with that.
Now if this was strick h2h then I say toss up or edge to Frank. But items that can used lying around then I say Robert has the edge.
But he comes from a universe where 1-2 hits is all that's needed for a KO. He had issues with the guy who could take his hits, and that guy wasn't as skilled as Frank. Robert never fought anyone near his level, only looks.

Robert never fought anyone who could also pick up random objects to fight with. For example, Frank disarmed DD, and then used his own weapon against him.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
But he comes from a universe where 1-2 hits is all that's needed for a KO. He had issues with the guy who could take his hits, and that guy wasn't as skilled as Frank. Robert never fought anyone near his level, only looks.

Robert never fought anyone who could also pick up random objects to fight with. For example, Frank disarmed DD, and then used his own weapon against him.
What scene are you referring to?
Why does any of that other stuff matter?
Robert wins a knife fight or a fight with random objects. That's all that matters. Frank may win a handgun fight.

Originally posted by h1a8
What scene are you referring to?
Why does any of that other stuff matter?
Robert wins a knife fight or a fight with random objects. That's all that matters. Frank may win a handgun fight.

It matters because.....it's a fight? Robert looks good because he had poor opposition. That's why it matters. He had plot armour that wouldn't apply here - i.e. his opponents were weak.

Originally posted by h1a8
Robert wins a knife fight or a fight with random objects.

No he doesn't.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
It matters because.....it's a fight? Robert looks good because he had poor opposition. That's why it matters. He had plot armour that wouldn't apply here - i.e. his opponents were weak.

But how do you judge his opposition?
Skill isn't based off who you beat but how you perform.

Don't believe me?
Answer the first question and you will see.

Originally posted by tkitna
No he doesn't.

Yes he does.

Originally posted by h1a8
Yes he does.

No he doesn't. He fought common street trash constantly. Frank fought better competition almost all the time including characters with superhuman stats.

Not saying Robert can't win some, but he certainly isn't taking a majority from Frank.

Originally posted by tkitna
No he doesn't. He fought common street trash constantly. Frank fought better competition almost all the time including characters with superhuman stats.

Not saying Robert can't win some, but he certainly isn't taking a majority from Frank.

Originally posted by h1a8
But how do you judge his opposition?
Skill isn't based off who you beat but how you perform.

Don't believe me?
Answer the first question and you will see.

Originally posted by h1a8
But how do you judge his opposition?
Skill isn't based off who you beat but how you perform.

Don't believe me?
Answer the first question and you will see.

By how he performed against characters who needed more than 1 hit to be put down.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
By how he performed against characters who needed more than 1 hit BY FRANK to be put down.

Originally posted by h1a8


So your new assertion (fascinating how you keep changing and shifting your stance as I defeat them!) is that should Frank be shifted into the Equalizer U, he'd also need to punch the mooks down with as many shots as he needs to in the Marvel U? Interesting.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So your new assertion (fascinating how you keep changing and shifting your stance as I defeat them!) is that should Frank be shifted into the Equalizer U, he'd also need to punch the mooks down with as many shots as he needs to in the Marvel U? Interesting.

The goal post shifting is his specialty. When he is easily backed into a corner, he'll come back with stuff that is so absurd that you don't even want to bother entertaining it. He accepts that as a victory on his part.

Originally posted by DarkSaint85
So your new assertion (fascinating how you keep changing and shifting your stance as I defeat them!) is that should Frank be shifted into the Equalizer U, he'd also need to punch the mooks down with as many shots as he needs to in the Marvel U? Interesting.

If he needs more than 1 shot to ko someone then either he is weak at that time or they have a greater durability than the ones that it took 1 hit to ko or he hit them not as effectively as he did the 1 hit victims.

Either way, defeating them has no bearing on being more skilled.

Skill is based off HOW you preform and not who you beat.