Why only 2 Sith ?

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BLADE
Sorry if this has been discussed before, but what was the reason for the Sith to make the rule "only 2 at a time" ?

yerssot
otherwise there will be competition and they would kill eachother and the entire sith order would be destroyed

it's in the novel of TPM, according to Peluffo (since I don't have the novel of TPM)

Omegaman
It was also to hide their existence from the jedi.

cookies2006
Yea cuz if u notice almost all of the sith guys were former jedi guys. Get what im sayin?

Ushgarak
I don't think they were at the time.

GL quote:

"One of the themes throughout the films is that the Sith lords, when they started out thousands of years ago, embraced the dark side. They were greedy and self-centered and they all wanted to take over, so they killed each other. Eventually, there was only one left, and that one took on an apprentice. And for thousands of years, the master would teach the apprentice, the master would die, the apprentice would then teach another apprentice, become the master, and so on. But there could never be any more than two of them, because if there were, they would try to get rid of the leader."

yerssot
hmm, was watching TPM, a doc there...
the sith started with one jedi who left the order and got tempted... can't remember what else he said...

Ushgarak
I can easily believe they were FOUNDED by an ex-Jedi, but most Sith over time would have never been Jedi themselves

Omegaman
I want to know how/why palpy turned to the dark side? WHo was his master? Could it have been his father?

Do you think that EPS 3 will explain who Syfo DIas was?

Rogue Jedi
yes, the sith order was founded by dark jedi. ush is right. the sith were so power hungry that they killed each other off. thats why there is one master, one apprentice.

yerssot
to the first part: we will probably never know
to the second part: yes, highly likely

LanceWindu
Hopefully they will explain Syfo Dias

cookies2006
Omegaman( i thought yoda was palpy's master) and (syphodias) i think it is either DM or QGJ.

Rogue Jedi
palpantine, a former jedi? did i miss something?

BLADE
I was under the impression that The Jedi know nothing of Palpatine's Force ability or that he ever had anything to do with the Force. I thought that as far as they know, he's just another Senator.

BLADE
By the way, thank you everyone for clearing up the 2 Sith question for me, makes perfect sense, thanks, Blade.

Ushgarak
Yes, clearly Palpatine could not have been a former Jedi.

Whilst I am open to how it may pan out I would not be actually surprised if the subject of who trained Palpatine is, in fact, ignored.

cookies2006
I dont think he is really a jedi is he? He just has knowledge of the force, and some lightning to come with it.

BLADE
No, Palpatine must be a full blown Master of the Sith, think of it this way, he was the one who taught Darth Maul how to use the dark side of the Force and how to handle a sabre, you can't teach what you don't know.

cookies2006
Yea thats true.

finti
Palpatine is a sith master with all the skills reqiured to be so.

cookies2006
Yep thats y he's the masta.

Rogue Jedi
very well put, blade.

finti
why there are two siths? we can only speculate. The reason we know it is only two is because Yoda said so in TPM.

yerssot
it's a tad more expended in the novel of TPM... or so I heard

finti
that would be regarded EU or semi EU.
Again remember the novelization of ROTJ where Obi says Owen was his brother

yerssot
nope, it's canon, just that if the movies contradict it, THAT part is wrong
but I doubt EpIII will give us an entire history of the sith to contradict the novel of TPM

Ushgarak
Hey. I gave a quote from George Lucas that explains it, guys! That is 100% canon!

finti
the quote is yes, the story in the TPM novel aint

Rogue Jedi
so, its because they are all too power hungry and with a lot of sith running around there was too much backstabbing , right?

yerssot
yes smile

finti
for us devoted fan who inquire deeper in to the why`s of SW it is.
There are plenty of SW fans who just watches the movies and movies only. They dont read the EU books or interviews George gives, they settle for what info the movies provide and only that. And from this you might guess that I find only the movies canon, no interviews nor novel should, in my mind, be regarded as canon. After all for me SW is the movies.

Ushgarak
But what George Lucas says about his own storyline is still canon in an official sense. Virtually by definition.

Rogue Jedi
i like the movies and the books. to me, EU is part of the star wars universe.

finti
spin offs

Rogue Jedi
didnt bring EUfacts into the conversation, just stated that i find them and the movies linked.

Ushgarak
What you think isn;t GREATLY relevant though, only what is officially so.

Rogue Jedi
i know that. i never said what i "think" is fact. i am merely stating my opinion. hell, ive been wrong more times than i can count. you guys dont agree with me, and i respect you guys and your opinions.

cookies2006
Well well well.

Rogue Jedi
well well well what?

finti
The thing I am puzzled at though is the introduction of the only two siths thing in TPM. In Empire Strikes Back Vader`s conversation with the emperor kind of contradict this by Vader talking about turning Luke into an ally and the Emperor saying he would be a great asset.

yerssot
well, one would get killed then obviously

finti
actually it aint that obvious

yerssot
why not? otherwise they're with 3 and that's not according to the rule

finti
the rule came after ESB so I wonder why Lucas actually made that rule, looking at ROTJ though I think GL had it in mind.

Ushgarak
Yes, Finti is right, that conversation was clearly made in a time before GL decided there could only be two Sith- they are clearly talking about making him number 3! But never mind.

yerssot
guess otherwise people would wonder why there wasn't an entire sith order during TPM, finti wink

finti
i wouldnt

yerssot
people who want to know more then the movie then roll eyes (sarcastic)

TheMerovingian
There's always two of 'em: a master and an apprentice; no more, no less!

finti
amen

Rogue Jedi
because i only have time to train one apprentice..... smokin' miffed devil

jknox79
cookies2006 was'nt count dooku master to yoda he revealed that in the near end of ep2. So was Yoda really Palp's master. I cant wait till ep3 i'am still a little confused about some subjects of the starwars films.

finti
Yoda was Dookus master, Dooku was QGJ`s master QGJ was Obi`s master, Obi was Anakins master.....................Palpy was Dookus master, adn then Anakins master the circle is complete

Blissbo
If you notice from the first movie the Jedi have somewhat the same rules as the Sith. There can only be one apprentice to one master. This is stated when Qui Gon wishes to train Anakin. Yoda tells him he already has an apprentice and cannot take on another. Now with the Sith, they follow the same rules (for whatever reason) and do you think that there could only be two of them because all other Sith masters were killed and there is only one true master (unlike the Jedi who have many master jedi's) so there can only be a master and apprentice (meaning Palpatine is the only master, so in theory in can only be himself and whoever is his apprentice at the time). Just a theory.

Blissbo
Just to expand a little bit on that thought, a sith apprentice can only become a master if he kills his master right? So its an endless cycle with just two sith because there is only one realy master.

finti
we dont know how a sith apprentice becomes the master besides the master dies, for him to kill his master is just speculations.


And Bllissbo there is a big difference, one Jedi cant have more than one apprentice but there are a lot of Jedis thus a lot of apprentices, but ONLY TWO SITHS. The siths have a rule on how many siths there can be a t a time, while the jedis sasy a jedi can only take on one apprentice. That rule by the Jedi is pure common sence though, it is hard enough to teach one person up in the Jedi way and skills

Blissbo
Sounds pretty much like what I said

Lyn
Maybe at that time, the Emperor was planning to get rid of Vader and keep Luke as his "apprentice".
Maybe he was just using Vader (in the end) to get Luke.
I dunno, just a thought. wink

Ushgarak
I think you missed the point there, Lyn. Try reading what Finti and I said again.

Lyn
So are you 2 saying that Emperor-Vader-Luke were the exception to the Sith rule??
Sorry if I missed the point again...

finti
the point is that the convo in ESB was probably made before GL deceided on the two only sith rule. big grinsmile

Lyn
Oh ok, fair enough...that sounds right.

Ushgarak
Yes, that conversation was clearly written from a point of view which did NOT consider two the maximum!

Rogue Jedi
vader wanted luke to join him so they could overthrow the emperor. the emperor, on the other hand, wanted luke to finish vader and become his new apprentice. either way, there would be 2 sith.

Ushgarak
But they were TALKING about is (absurd in the first place if it meant killing the other) as if there woule be 3.

finti
agree

Rogue Jedi
but there was not gonna be 3.....vader and the emperor each had their own agenda......palpantine: luke as his new apprentice, vader: he and luke overthrowing the emperor and ruling the galaxy as father and son.


ps: if they are just speculating, then never mind.

yerssot
two siths; if they got him as just a Dark Jedi it was ok, normally

Ushgarak
No, as I said, they weere talking about making him a third.

The Sith wouldn't believe in the principle of having even an affiliated member, yerss- the same problem would still occur.

Julie
because the ancient sith nearly did kill each other off......in KOTOR....(sorry I know it's EU) you can talk to the spirit of Ajunta Pall.........on Korriban....a sith world....

Rogue Jedi
sorry if i lost my train of thought...i am right, however about palpantine and vaders agendas.

finti
we really dont know their agendas, but with ROTJ it is clear that Vader and Luke has to fight each other. The fact is Palpy might have been left without an aprentice at all.

Rogue Jedi
good point.....

Rogue Jedi
palpy....i like that....sounds like a cartoon character.....

Lyn
laughing A really really really UGLY cartoon character!!

Fire
nice idea but wouldn't this lead to a loss of knowledge if the master would die before he could teach the apprentice all he knows

Rogue Jedi
a really ugly and evil one at that!!!!!

finti
guess the thing is the apprentice is fully skilled to take over as a master

Fire
yea but what if the masters dies before the apprentice is fully skilled, if the apprentice is already fully skilled, why does he need the master?

Lyn
Exactly RJ thumb up

finti
thats the point Fire when the apprentice is fully skilled it is bye bye master

Fire
yea but what if the master gets killed by a jedi, dies in a car crash, falls of a tower because he's drunk BEFORE the apprentice is fully skilled

finti
that s just a complication of things so since Palpy is there we just have to assume that the sith did it their without any disruption of any kind

Rogue Jedi
do the sith drink?

finti
does it matter

Rogue Jedi
yes...fire insinuated they did.

finti
my last answer stands then

Rogue Jedi
you lost me, finti.....i wonder what darth mauls drink of choice is?

finti
the point is it doesnt matter what his choice of drink is or anybodyelse in the SW saga for that matter. This is about the TWO sith rule

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