• Philosophia will be repping a non-all-out, Byrne era Superman -- that is to say, Superman cannot enter his 'Doomsday-killing' mindset here.

• Damborgson will be repping Blue Marvel.

• Battle will take place on The Sacred World of the Kai:

• There will be a 3 post limit(1 opening post, 1 rebuttal post, and 1 closing post.)

• The match will begin Friday(10/12), and conclude Monday(10/15).

quote:

deathslash wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 12:41 PM:
Finally got through with reading the final posts and boy, I think I'm gonna need a nap after this to fully process everything (and the kitchen sink) that got thrown into their arguments.

Phil and Damb both had some solid opening posts and some even more impressive rebuttals. Unfortunately though, this fight simply reconfirmed what I had originally believed. It's no secret, I've always been an advocate of Blue Marvel. With that said though, I've always maintained that Superman can beat him simply because of higher end showings. Unfortunately though, those higher end showings have always been the ones from non-Bryne/new52/rebirth Superman. Damb made a legitimate point that I've always believed; Bryne Supes has too many low showings for them to simply be discounted. I also don't believe that speed will come into play as much as Phil believes. Yes, he's faster than BM, but by such an incredible margin? When he gets tagged by every other threat out there? When Adam has gone to to toe with actual speedsters? How can we simply look at space cheese with no application in combat and discard combat speed with no application in space cheese? I realize that Phil is in control of him, but there's a difference between space cheese and combat feats and Bryne Supes simply doesn't have the sort of reaction time in combat that he's implying he does.

There were some inconsistencies in Phildo's argument as well:

For example, Phil said that BM got outmaneuvered by Chavez and then brought up how she couldn't bring down Ultimate Cap. What he failed to notice though, was that in that very same comic where America Chavez gets wrecked by Cap, she also get easily beaten on/slapped aside/blitzed by Ultimate Hulk; the same one that Adam casually oneshots.

Likewise, there were multiple missed opportunities with Damborg.

Damb didn't bring up Adam knocking out Namor IIRC and also didn't bring up how Odinson immediately stood down once Adam got back from fighting Ultimo.

At the end of the day, I believe that speed is in favor of Superman with strength and durability too close to really call. The real deciding factor is Adams energy manipulation. He performed energy surgery on Monica during the middle of a fight, manipulated the energy of Anti-man, can make energy shields (even when they are broken, he can just make them again and that certainly offers more protection than having to take the punch), and manipulated the energy of the mind of an infant Watcher.

TL;DR: I'm giving this to Damborgson/Blue Marvel. An arguably more solid argument, significantly less low showings, being a physical peer of Superman, and having access to weakness exploitation gives him my vote.

quote:

CosmicComet wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 06:14 PM:
Dear God,
What a BZ we had here. I've had the privelage of judging two battlezones by these prize fighters now and the rematch did
not disappoint. Dambo came for blood this time and both are limping away aching the way I see it. He covered it all,
with as few appearances as Adam has, Damb stretched those showings and subsequent power-scaling to the absolute limit
and for that he has to be commended. There wasn't a single facet of this fight that he did not give a convincing argument
for...except for one. And that was the one that cost him here in my view. Philo's tactic was largely one dimensional,
focusing heavily on how important speed was for this fight (that's not to short change him on all the other nifty showings,
just that speed was his main weapon and he leaned heavily into it), but for me that ended up being the right call in this
fight. It's tiring I know, but speed really does kill, and Dambo did as well as he could do to cover for his character's
weaknesses in this area. BM took minutes to reach the moon, whereas light would only take 1.3 seconds. And he took a few panels
to reach Kid Nova who got to high orbit, panels that had actual dialogue in them, so I could only take them to mean that
it took them seconds or so to reach high orbit. These are massively hypersonic feats don't get me wrong, but that's just
not cutting it vs what Philo brought for Supes. The cosmic awareness giving machine more or less came across as a mental stress
test/strength test vs an actual speed feat, if that was a more concrete feat I definitely would have given Adam the win here.
Besides that we had a good bit of equivocating regarding the speed debate, trying to argue loosely based on hitting those
with confirmed FTL reactions, and in comics that just isn't reliable in and of itself without more info,
unless you like FTL reaction time Colossus (You know, the guy Ares would pulverize). But again, Dambo did an excellent job,
even on the speed category, he was just too outgunned, but he used his limited ammo excellent. Damb did convince me however
that Adam held a large upper hand as far as sheer power goes. He successfully planted doubts about just how high Bryne Era could
go. He was right to point out how editorially DC was just super shy about high showings at that time as they were still
trying to distance themselves from Silver age shenanigans. Yeah, Byrne Era Supes still has access to some great scaling
such as through Mon-El, but Dambo rightfully countered that with the Drax showing. If Adam was even 1/4 as fast as Supes, I would
have given him this win, likely with a combo of AOE energy attacks, draining, attrition etc, but that just wasn't proven.

Damb showed immense improvement here, perhaps even more than Philo could handle in a more even pool of showings in the future.
But for now, this was pretty much like Obi Wan getting the higher ground on Anakin. (Ol' lucky one trick pony. )

So yeah, it was tough but I'm going with Phil

quote:

NemeBro wrote on Oct 16th, 2018 10:03 PM:
All right, my verdict:

Great battlezone guys, probably the most fun BZ/tourney I've read. I don't have too much time to elaborate so I'll be fairly brief, but can expand on my verdict later if you want. First of all, let me say that though Byrnerman vs. Blue Marvel was the focal point being disputed, with Dambo and Phil attempting to prove their chosen champion the victor, but I'd say Phil was also trying to disprove the idea that Byrne, though he might have started out that way, is the "weak" Superman, and Dambo, perhaps inadvertently, was trying to prove that BM is indeed a top tier Marvel hero, which I've seen disputed. And I'd say both succeeded at that, so good job there guys. Phil provided a solid line of feats worthy of a herald, and Dambo at least convinced me that Blue Marvel deserves to stand alongside Marvel's best.

But I'm going to have to cast my vote for Phil. I was convinced that Blue Marvel has super speed, sure, but not that his speed, particularly his ability to act, react, and think at super speed, was nearing Superman's level based on the feats posted. Dambo did provide some anti-feats to try to lower Superman's average, but the problem I had with some of them is that the assailants Superman struggled with were essentially an unknown quantity. He was slightly hurt by some superhuman monkey sure, but how weak was that monkey? By comparison, though Phil posted less low feats for BM, the ones posted were of a relatively known quantity, featuring him having less impressive showings against America Chavez or a Chitauri. And ultimately, though it is crude, I saw more evidence of Superman's relative highs, particularly his speed, than the lows he apparently has an abundance of.

It was a good showing all-around boys, but once again, I'm going with Phil.

quote:

-Pr- wrote on Oct 17th, 2018 02:29 AM:
Before I get in to it, just want to say nice work to the both of you. Some really good stuff in your posts, and it was an interesting read. Good arguments, crap gifs (and shitting on the WWE, really?), but in general I saw enough that my mind was changed several times while I was reading it all. Gonna keep this as short as I can as I don't think anyone wants to read me waffle on about how great both debators were and how they all made stellar points. They did. It was great. Now, the fight:

I tried to not let my own Superman knowledge come to the fore during the reading, but it was still fun to see something Philo would post and think "well, I don't know if I would have said that..." or to snicker at times I felt like Damborg was straight up lying. In the end though, it was going to come down to which man was in general more convincing, and again, that shifted at several points during my reading.

Blue Marvel... Is an interesting character. I was quite clear about how I knew nothing of the character, so every scan posted by these two, barring repetition obviously, was one that had a very good chance of me never having seeng it before. The arguments and the constant posting of new scans to frame previous ones in a new light kept me from making my judgment too early, and even as I read the final arguments, I didn't know which way I was going to swing.

The cracks start to appear in the final few posts, for me. Both trying to discredit the other's claims of what their character is capable of, both making claims I didn't buy, but in the end, I felt like Philo just did a better job of making his case. Damborg's "Superman's low feats bring him down" argument, while having some merit in this case, just wasn't made convincingly enough for my tastes. Nor was his claim that Marvel had the kind of speed that would allow him to contend with the ridiculousness Philo brought to the table. The argument that Marvel could physically beat Superman was an interesting one too, but again, the question is always going to remain as to what Superman's "high" feats do to toughen him up. On the other hand, Philo's sometimes massive exaggerations still contained an argument that I just didn't feel Damborg did enough to discredit.

In the end I feel like Blue Marvel's lack of showings is what hurt him. It's not fair, but I think it IS one of the deciding factors. Less low feats is nice, but it also means less high feats, and the ones that he has just aren't, from what I've seen, enough to turn the argument in his favour for me. At least, based on what you guys have shown me.

So again, my vote goes to Philo.