quote:

Semi-Finals: Smurph Opening Post

Hello to everybody, and a big thanks to whoever agrees to judge this circus.
Opening thoughts:
This is a tourney where everything was randomly drawn. There was no strategy in the drafting of characters, so the match really comes down to battle strat, arguments, and luck.
My opponent has Lobo. He’s a powerful, toonish brick, and because (almost) anything goes in this tourney, Lobo’s allowed to make blood clones, which makes him a very dangerous draft.
My guy is Black Bolt. His scream is the most powerful direct attack in the tourney, and without a doubt the thing Bolt is best known for. However, as I’ll demonstrate, it’s far from his only power.

The Midnight King

Last match I focused on Black Bolt basics (the scream). This match, we need to get into the breadth of his powers. I won’t do a full respect thread, but I’ll set out what Black Bolt needs to win before diving in to the battle strat.
First, the source of Black Bolt’s power are electrons. His “core” Inhuman ability is to absorb, manipulate and emit electrons, and to combine them with a unique and unknown particle for a wide variety of effects:

• Flight.
  
• Superhuman physical stats. These seem to vary with Bolt’s energy level but are typically strong enough to trade punches with guys like Gladiator and Thor.
  
• The voice, his most notable power. Feats range from obliterating cities and cross-planet continent shaking, to ripping holes in spacetime.
  
• Energy blasts (don’t hurt Lockjaw!)
  
• Force fields.
  
• Matter manipulation.
  
• Turn matter into anti-matter.
  
• Simultaneously and individually control every electron in somebody’s body.
  
• ”With a blink of your eye you could manipulate every electron in every atom in their bodies. You could turn them all into stone.”
  
• Control electrons to control behaviour – casually controls Maximus and instantly changes his behaviour from raving mad to fast asleep.
  
• Hypnosis.
  
• Mindblast (for context, this guy turned out to be an illusory figure, but the attack is still the same).
  
• Absorption: can draw electrons from Earth’s atmosphere to power Attilan’s gargantuan batteries for ten millennia.

Putting all this together, and without further ado:

Battle

The moment the match starts, Black Bolt takes to the sky. He also instantly shields.
He’ll immediately fly to the upper atmosphere and draw excessive electrons from the atmosphere. For now, he’ll just use them to keep his shield strong.
At this point, he can’t be reached by anybody except Lobo on his bike. If clones try leaping at him, he’ll obviously just… move out of the way… and/or use electron fields to drop them to earth.
There are now two options: either Lobo tries to attack Black Bolt head-on, or he doesn’t. I’m hopeful that he does, because attacking Black Bolt while he’s alone in the sky will make everything that much easier.
At any rate, the moment that Lobo is close enough, Black Bolt will simply lift him with an electron field (like so), and put him to sleep (like so).
Judges, note: I’m not saying that Black Bolt can mind-control Lobo like Professor X. That is a totally different attack, and irrelevant. All that I’m saying is that Lobo will be helpless when Black Bolt plucks him up and electronically signals his brain to go to sleep.
I’m also not saying that it would stick for long. Maybe his healing factor/toon powers would kick in and wake him up and dial him back up to 11 in the very next panel. It doesn’t matter; all that I need is a forum KO.
The proof: Sure, Lobo has some feats of resisting psychics, but he can (easily) be hypnotized (and that instance lasts a lot longer than a forum KO).
Ultimately, he’s controlling Lobo’s hardware (the electrons in his body), not his software (his psyche). Black Bolt’s also specifically not doing anything to transmute Lobo’s body. All of Lobo’s feats of resisting psychics or healing from physical attacks are irrelevant.
If Lobo tries using his bike to prolong things, Black Bolt will just nab it in an electron field and convert it to anti-matter.
If Lobo tries to use a clone army to fight for him, Black Bolt will just use electron beams to compel the clones to start attacking each other. It will take very little to make the army of Czarnians collapse in on itself.
And if Lobo tries to outrun and outlast, Black Bolt will just sustain himself on the earth’s electrons until he breaks the bike and sleeps his opponent.

quote:

Spring Tourney Round 2

OP

Now, we get to an actual match. A single opponent against a single opponent; a mid-herald vs a mid-herald.

As this is the winner’s rounds, we should all be familiar with what my character can do; I will spare the judges having to read a respect thread here. My OP is simple.

DING, match starts.

I immediately fly off on my bike, which, we have shown is fast enough to escape the pull of black holes:

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And at the VERY least, is fast enough to do 0.5x speed of light:

https://i.postimg.cc/ZKyTn6YZ/RCO003.jpg

Whilst Black Bolt’s voice is specifically around the speed of sound (sonic force):

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And Quicksilver is explicitly shown to be able to outrun it (and from the word Bolt speaks, ‘DIE’, he clearly is out to kill).

Even IF he manages to tag me with it, so?

This is a pointblank scream right in Thanos’ face:

https://comicvine1.cbsistatic.com/u...%20%2817%29.jpg

Notice what happens - I am not arguing that Lobo=Thanos in durability, btw. No, note how Thanos is BLEEDING from the scream.

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IOW, if his sonic speed level screams manage to tag me...from ++0.5km away (remember, I am gunning out of there, so in the first second, I’d be thousands of miles away)...I bleed, and guess what?

Clones.

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Meanwhile, the Main Man is jetting off somewhere, perfectly safe. As he flies, he bites his tongue, hawking bloody loogies all along the way, creating even more clones. A million clones? A billion? Two billion? Three? Four? Judges, pick a large number in your head, then triple it. Triple it again. And again. That’s how many clones are coming for SmurphBolt (Black Smurph?)

Judges, EVERY clone is perfectly capable of creating more clones. And each of THEIR clones is capable of creating MORE clones of their own.

They will then swarm Bolt. Remember, judges, that Lobo is able to track people across UNIVERSAL distances:

https://i.postimg.cc/JhtmwX29/RCO003-1469407397.jpg

Finding and hunting Bolt down would be a piece of cake for my army (besides, all they need do is swarm NYC). Whilst at the same time, Bolt has no chance of finding me.

Bolt has the advantage, judges, in versatility (definitely). In blunt force durability (maybe). But endurance? Can he fight off 10 herald level bricks? 100? 1,000? 10,000? When every blow he delivers draws more blood? When his voice - his best offensive weapon - draws blood?

It isn’t just highly unlikely. It is impossible.

Moreover, judges, as Bolt uses his powers, he drains himself. In fact, he is one of the worst characters in comics in terms of his stamina. As the PsychoMan says:

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EVERY application of his power. In short, every time he uses his powers (especially if Smurph tries a big showy attack), he will weaken himself.

Sure, Smurph may actually try this time (unlike his last match) and do something other than a tightly focussed beam, lol. Perhaps an omni blast? Matter manip? A speedblitz? Wouldn’t save him - match starts, and I am far away. With self-BFR rules, I can even hide on the moon. At a distance of 386,400km, and at half the speed of light (conservative), I would reach it in 1.3 seconds.

Judges, that should also give you an idea of the speed at which I travel.

Once there? Well, Lobo has thrown a sun before:

https://i.postimg.cc/KzvG8Vjs/RCO012-2.jpg

Neutron stars are 1.4 times the mass of OUR Sun:

https://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/scien...0billion%20tons!

A teensy little moon like ours would be nothing.

This isn’t my main strat, by-the-by. It is merely to show you, judges, what can be achieved here. Think big. Match starts, I hightail it out of there to the Moon if needed, and whilst my clones swarm Smurph and he gets weaker with every application of his power, I can hurl the moon at him.

He has no way to affect me, and even if his offensive attacks hit me, that just makes me bleed more clones. He doesn't even have a way of targeting me; judges, match starts and we are 0.5km away from each other in one of the most built up areas on Earth. There's no line of sight.

On the flipside, I am safe and sound somewhere, until my 30 seconds are up and I can return to Earth (if needed). Continuosly creating clones, who beget more clones who beget more clones etc etc etc etc.

THEN the fun begins.

Here are two clear examples of Bolt being affected by gas:

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Stupid low showings, right? Judges, tell Smurph to showcase Bolt’s durability against GAS attacks. Bolt had amnesia there, sure, but that doesn't affect durability. But if Smurph has the high showings (only fair!) Let him showcase them.

As for Lobo?

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Each and EVERY one of his clones can do the same. We start in NYC; a can of beans is easily found. I then sit on him and fart.

TL;DR:

Match starts, the Main Man flies off and SIMULTANEOUSLY creates bloodclones, all of whom ALSO create clones. The Main Man hides *somewhere* in/on/under the Earth/Earth’s atmosphere, whatever, whilst his BILLIONS of clones attack a rapidly weakening Bolt. These attacks can be simple physical assaults, or some can get cans of beans (which will appear just for him) and fart on Bolt.

Repeat until KO’d/dead.

And if needed, the Main Man throws the Moon at Bolt or something Idk I didn’t write the comics. Hell, based on the Solaris showing I could throw the Earth,lmao.

I don't need to be able to target him. I am simply brute forcing an attack with my billions of clones.

1. DS expected Black Bolt to fight in NYC. Instead of doing that, Bolt immediately gets out of Dodge, and out of reach.
   
2. DS expected Bolt to expend energy fighting clones. Bolt isn't attacking the clones, at all. Instead of expending energy, he's amassing it.
   
3. In fact, the only person attacking the clones is... Lobo. He's sending them hurtling to the Earth, and then he's maybe throwing a moon at them.
   
4. DS doesn't get to dictate what the clones do, because they're separate characters. Instead he relies on them retaliating against their attacker. Therefore, they attack Lobo.
   
5. Meanwhile, Black Bolt is safe and sound. He can track Lobo. He can take out the spacehog, put Lobo in a force field, and sleep him for a quick and simple win.

• Personal force field
  
• Flight
  
• Nab and sleep Lobo

quote:

At a distance of 386,400km, and at half the speed of light (conservative), I would reach it in 1.3 seconds.

quote:

Smurph: Closing Post

If you've bothered to read this far in this thread, I'm grateful! It's been a weird match, but tourneys never go the way that they should on paper. These two characters deserved a bigger clash, but that's how it crumbles.

In this post I'll go over the whole match, provide proof for the various things that DS demands, and finish up by attacking the most glaring holes in his plan.

The headline here is that my OP stays solidly within the four corners of what Black Bolt can do, whereas his is far-fetched and self-destructive. He either fails to pull it off, or he succeeds and shoots himself in the face.

How the match has played out

Darksaint is... all over the place. He has Lobo instantly making a billion clones but also running to space but also hiding on/in earth but also throwing the moon. He has clones tracking Black Bolt but also inventing new tech but also running around like World War Z zombies but also finding beans. He has no control over Lobo's clones, and he knows that they will murder Lobo in an instant, but he ignores that because it's inconvenient. He has no way to communicate with Lobo's clones, but he ignores that too, because there's just no time to talk when you're busting out every tactic and no tactics simultaneously.

Lobo's a very powerful brick but he's a brick. He needs a good OP to win a tourney match. His clones can't fly and Darksaint relied heavily on the assumption that BB would stay grounded. Everything since then is a frenetic attempt to make up for that mistake.

In contrast, I've stuck to my guns with a strategy that's about as simple and straightforward as it comes. Black Bolt flies sky high and shields. He absorbs and conserves energy, and tracks Lobo. Either the clones kill him or BB sleeps him. Every part of this strategy is based on the comics, and the most critical part hasn't even been contested.

Black Bolt

Flight speed

The moment the match starts, Black Bolt exits NYC. It's like this, but in reverse:

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For an alternative visual, look at Black Bolt running down Dr. Spectrum through the atmosphere: https://imgur.com/a/21z87

BB's top speed hasn't been quantified but we know he can go from NYC to space in two panels, in the middle of a fight: https://imgur.com/a/oylfu

Judges, I'm not claiming that Black Bolt flies as fast as Lobo. That's irrelevant for this match. I'm just saying that he instantly takes off out of NYC. Darksaint has claimed that somehow Lobo will grow clones, reach the moon, and throw the moon before that happens, but Lobo just isn't the Flash, as we all know. That's why the only feats DS provides are some very iffy narration on travel speed.

Again, DS just sets himself a much higher target that he now has to hit. He planned on Black Bolt staying in NYC so he planned a whole bunch of attacks. Now he's trying to correct that mistake by claiming that BB is moving at a "leisurely" pace while Lobo moves like Superman to pull off the cloning and the travel and the moon and presumably the return to Earth before BB does the singular thing that he planned on doing.

The match starts and Black Bolt is gone before Lobo has mounted his bike or bit his lip.


Energy reserves and multitasking

DS has repeatedly stated this baffling myth that BB's energy reserves are weak. Again, there's no evidence.

On the contrary, here's a crazy feat of energy usage and multitasking.

In Black Bolt #5, Lockjaw rescues Black Bolt from a prison cell that had entirely drained his energy. https://i.postimg.cc/3J4wNjYj/Power-flows-slowly.jpg

So his power reserves are basically depleted. He then makes himself an electron shield to prevent getting drained by the prison, and teleports back in. https://i.postimg.cc/dDPcLyjn/Electron-shield.jpg

Notice that his shield is pink. He then heads into the prison and frees Absorbing Man, and gives him a pink electron shield.
https://i.postimg.cc/PryktP8b/Shield-AM-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/13Yhq2Bf/Shield-AM-2.jpg

He then does some blasting, frees three more friends, gives them each their own shield, and gets in a big fight.
https://i.postimg.cc/hjWY8BdP/Blast-shield.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/ZnjDhvDC/More-shields-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/8kbYvxPN/More-shields-2.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/155jrMf6/More-shields-3.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/d3WnfPLC/Fight-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/G3zMtYqp/Fight-2.jpg

THEN, they meet up with the Big Bad. Black Bolt screams (!) and then channels his voice into Absorbing Man, who overloads and explodes.

https://i.postimg.cc/VLrjwbhp/Scream-1.jpg

https://i.postimg.cc/dVcTKNrZ/Overload-1.jpg
https://i.postimg.cc/9fWRD4xW/Overload-2.jpg

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So... no, I don't think Black Bolt is going to be depleted by flying and shielding at the same time.

Again, he's flying through the Earth's atmosphere, where he's free to just keep amping.


Durability

Darksaint keeps pressing this point about gas resistance as if he's actually using teargas or something. It's an explosion, dude. Black Bolt has tanked being at ground zero of his entire city exploding: https://imgur.com/a/NI6HD

And if we're talking blunt force durability, consider that Thanos hit BB harder than Lobo ever could, and Bolt kept fighting. All of that is sans shields, and mostly irrelevant, since the clones can't touch Bolt, and Lobo will just get instantly contained in a reverse polarity field.


Tracking


Not much to say here that I haven't already. Black Bolt has cosmic awareness. Black Bolt can track faint energy signatures. Lobo is riding on a Harley Davidson on space steroids. You couldn't pick a more obnoxious vehicle in any comic. Black Bolt can track him and will.


Go to sleep


The most important point here is that Darksaint concedes that Lobo's clones can be hypnotized:

quote:

He may control….one? Great.

Of course, if a clone can be hypnotized, then so can Lobo.

Darksaint wrote a lot about Black Bolt trying to hypnotize the world but that's just... not what either of my posts said. If BB needs to give the clones a nudge to attack each other instead of him, he can. It's not necessary but it's there in case there's any doubt remaining here.

The problem with clones

So to recap, Darksaint:

• Is all over the place with his plan
  
• Has admitted that the hypnosis will work
  
• Has no way to reach BB with clones

Those are big gaps, and I'll urge the judges to keep them in mind. But the biggest, most glaring issue is that Darksaint said that he is instantly creating a billion Lobo clones and then... throwing the moon at them.

It's just an absurd overreach to the point of self-sabotage.

quote:

Judges, I said a billion clones - but there is nothing stopping me from covering every inch of the Earth, and then extending UPWARDS, with clones. Billions? Trillions? Quadrillion clones?

This guy just doesn't know when to stop, step back, and reconsider.

Ok, so Lobo's going to start the match by trying to create a billion clones.

How many clones has Darksaint actually shown Lobo creating? 15? Two dozen?

A far cry from a billion.

Let's see what happens when you pack Lobo clones in together:

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quote:

"Nobody orders me around!

That's just a few clones and it took them all of three panels to descend into chaos and start killing each other.

Lobo's a powerful character but the comics have dealt with the insanity of his cloning by explaining that his clones start killing each other. I know this, Darksaint knows this.

DS has no way to control or even communicate with the clones.

Black Bolt is strategically and specifically not attacking the clones.

Lobo is throwing the moon at his own clones.

There is absolutely zero chance that those clones don't instantly turn on Darksaint. They are a horde of creatures with the ability to track him and vengeance on their mind.

This is a historic example of a tourney frontrunner taking himself out with his own OP.

quote:

All of the previous posts are summarised thusly:

1. Smurph relies on the Main Man being close to him (Counter: Lobo is not)
   
   
2. Smurph relies on the clones fighting each other/OG Lobo (Counter: they do not)
   
   
3. Smurph relies on BB having ‘uber reserves’ (Counter: BB does not)
   
   
4. Smurph relies on BB being able to recharge said reserves quickly and continuously (Counter: BB cannot)
   
   
5. Conversely, I have infinite preptime and infinite clones (Counter - Smurph cannot)

Closing the distance

My defense is absolute - sheer distance (plus Smurph’s BS, lol). He has absolutely ZERO scans of BB ever ‘compelling’ ANY character in battle, at any range beyond, what, 2m? Look at his Maximus scan. Maximus doesn’t even register the presence of the Inhumans, & somehow this is being spun into ‘BB can easily compel clones to attack each other’ or ‘BB can easily compel Lobo to sleep’. Even Smurph says that he only does this tactic ‘the moment Lobo is close enough’.

Then notice how he changed tack when he realised I was sending an army to him - that the army would fall apart & fight each other. Maybe even rely on Lobo to be killed by the clones.

Civil War

Every single time Lobo created clones himself to fight, they were united as an army. Vril slashed him, the clones came out. No infighting. He bit his own thumb with WW - no infighting. He tries to use the Lil’Lobo scan - but the scan itself says how they turn on their enemy first. The clones don’t pop out innocent newborns to be taught & instructed on what to do - they are EXACT copies of the Main Man, down to his skills, memories & objectives. They all followed WW into battle, sacrificing themselves even though they knew it was a suicide mission. There is no scan of Lobo in either scan I presented (& you guys can read it yourselves; L.E.G.I.O.N #7 & Death Metal #5) having to sit down & communicate their plan, who the target is, who not to hit etc. If Smurph wanted to prove it, I am sure he could have found the scans if they exist - he’s a smart chap. But no - if the Main Man has a plan (as detailed by me), then all his clones know the plan & execute it, as shown with Vril, & as shown with WW.

A quick side argument - there IS, actually, the potential for *A* clone to come out weird. We saw that with Slobo. IOW, it isn’t a 100% success rate - more like a 99.9999% success rate, with 0.0001% chance that a clone would be different.

Even this is a ‘Maybe’. After all, in Death Metal #5, EVERY SINGLE ONE of the Lobos accompanying WW were all in tune, all fighting together, sacrificing themselves. We gotta use the most recent versions, amirite? Forum rule:

quote:

it'll be assumed that it's the current version unless mentioned otherwise

& current Lobo’s clones did NOT fight amongst themselves (even after Lobo made himself bleed) nor did they fight Vril (after he slashed Lobo).

Even his desperate attempt, to say he could ‘easily’ compel the clones to fight each other, fails. He has NO scans of compelling even ONE character to fight for him, let alone 2, or 5, or 10, or a billion.

Calling an Uber

Does BB really have ‘uber’ reserves?

Using the Master Blow drains him - but note, ALL his energy being expended doesn’t even KO Ben:

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This links directly to my argument (which Smurph drew attention to, & said):

quote:

He wrote them & then showed... exactly nothing to back it up.

So let’s say Smurph is right (shocking, I know!) & that BB’s reserves are ‘uber’. So how does that translate to a fight? Well, we know EXACTLY what a combat applicable feat of these reserves are (strange how Smurph never showed one of these). Here we have a clear showing of what happens when ‘energy sufficient to power Attilan’s gargantuan batteries for ten millenia’, that can ‘maintain THOUSANDS of Inhumans’ lifeforce for WEEKS’ can do in a fight.

Daze Ben Grimm, a High Meta for...I mean, is he even KO’d? Meanwhile, BB is shot to shit and has to be carried away by the physically weakest of the Inhumans, lol.

Your phone has low battery

Remember:

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Smurph tries to pass it off as ‘oh, every comic character is like this’. Not true. Lobo doesn’t have such a limit, for example. & the scan EXPLICITLY states BB has to recharge after EVERY application of his power. Not my words.

I mean, is he going to stay there for an hour? A day? A week? A month? Or even a year? A decade? Whilst continuously being attacked by fresh new clones who will have increasingly advanced tech? As the Main Man is off chilling somewhere living his best life, driving off on his bike every time he detects BB getting close (if he does)?

After using his voice, BB gets taken out by a karate chop from Emma Frost, lol:

https://justpaste.it/img/17f1d707f0...80e50294f7a.jpg

I mean, we COULD argue that the two events weren’t linked at all, & this was just a crappy low showing that EVERY character has - personally, I just think his energy reserves were lower, hence, his durability.

Charging the T-bomb caused him to...well, be half the man he used to be, for a long time (so much for that recharge rate, amirite?):

https://justpaste.it/img/f72b7a729b...b2eb0d32aee.jpg

Smurph tried to pass off his single scan of BB standing in Attilan, focussing, unshielded, & drawing in electrons, BEING A MERE CONDUIT (seriously, go back and read that scan again), & tried to extrapolate this to BB being in battle, flying (with no proof of his speed, & disregard any proof he brings in the 3rd post as he never actually made this argument), shielding whilst zipping around avoiding angry Lobos being thrown at him at insane speeds (imagine the strength that throws suns around, now throwing a 140kg ball).

Again, bear my phone analogy in mind. BB has reserves to sustain 1,000s of Inhumans for weeks. Without fighting, standing in the center of Attilan, no shields.

Then faints.

Great. Now he has 1,000,000,000,000,000 clones being thrown at him, farting, as OTHER clones are attacking (see below), as he is attempting to shield against them, whilst flying, whilst also charging himself (which he has no proof of him being able to multitask at all (& again judges, disregard any proof he may try to bring because he never even attempted to argue BB’s multitasking).

Here is Smurph’s own scan, with BB vs the Hulk - I have focussed on the important part:

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Proof, if needed - BB CANNOT sustain himself indefinitely, especially when expending energy.

Infinity, and beyond

Match starts, & Lobo is gone. 1.3, 2.6 seconds, all moot. I am somewhere in the world/offworld, & he has no scans, no proof to say he can track me. Lobo is NOWHERE near him, & he admits in his OP that he needs to be close to do all of his electron mindwhammies.

Whilst far away from him (I could be with clones in Africa, Australasia,over the Pacific, in a small cave in Malta, anywhere), I have all the preptime needed to do whatever I want.

This is Lobo, on the fly, modding a MOTHERBOX, booby-trapping it against Darkseid

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https://tinyurl.com/c93mwb5c

Constructing planet-destroying guns on the fly, from trash (upgrading from ‘Big Larry’ to ‘Big Curly Joe’:

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https://tinyurl.com/wfv54mf8

He may not appear it, but he is deadly with prep & tech (as said before).

Now Smurph has given me free reign to do anything I want with clones - bioweapons, chemical warfare, conventional weapons, nukes etc. I am sure he will show some nice scans of BB’s durability (maybe the famous scan of BB surviving the T-Bomb?) but as said from the start, I am specifically attacking his GAS durability.

Meanwhile, we KNOW Bolt needs to breathe:

https://tinyurl.com/32a3nnwc

What happens when the entire world is covered in methane gas? That ignores the clones actually building any tech of their own.

Oh, and the moon being thrown. From the very beginning, the Moon throwing was NEVER the main tactic. It is merely a diversion - which speaks volumes as to the scales I’m playing at here. I don’t even need to do it, judges - the main point here is that I got away, and IF NEEDED, I can throw the Moon at him.

His entire strategy relies on him being passive - so passive, in fact, that if it were real life Sin would be disgusted.

Summary

Judges, let’s run a scenario through with you. Let’s say Smurph is unable to compel my clones to attack each other, and the Main Man never gets anywhere NEAR BB. This is the scenario you HAVE to consider, because as I have shown, Smurph has no proof he can get to me, and no proof he can compel armies of ANY size, whilst I have showcased enough to cast doubt on his strat.

Now what?

He just...floats in the upper atmosphere for...eternity? Passively waiting for me to get within range? For a clone (out of billions) to maybehave a change of heart?

quote:

Now let’s go back to my strat. Smurph is floating in the air, out in the open, a floating target. He doesn’t attack me, I just keep away from him. Meanwhile, my genius clones are building all manner of tech and weaponry to attack him, for all eternity. They can cover the Earth, constantly cloning, creating towers of Lobo clones. The point here is that he has NOTHING to actually attack me with - I am a better tracker than him, and I am faster/more mobile than him. I can get into space (returning within 30 secs!), hide under the sea (I breathe/smoke cigars in space, unlike him) - do literally anything. Forever.

Whilst the Moon crashes down on his head.

Ask yourselves - who wins?

Thanks for reading.

quote:

First off guys, thanks for putting in the effort. It was a great read.

Fight starts off with both fighters retreating to regroup/ powerup. This shows mutual respect by the contenders.

DS strategy
1 - Create an army of billions of clones and showed that they are all genius caliber like lobo. They can build spacehogs, or build planet destroying weapons. Knowing their limitations (lack of flight) he even has clones attack bb by piling onto each other to get at him like wwz.
2- the clones are building weapons while billions are climbing eachother to get to BB and keeping him occupied.
3 - Nuclear farts. LOL I would have dismissed this but it happened in comics.
3 - Lobo is chilling and avoiding BB, said that he doesnt have to because bb is going to be too busy fending off the clones and their weapons.
4 - as a last resort he'll drop the moon on bb and any clone that may get influenced


VS Smurphs strategy
1- DS expected Black Bolt to fight in NYC. Instead of doing that, Bolt immediately gets out of Dodge, and out of reach.
2- DS expected Bolt to expend energy fighting clones. Bolt isn't attacking the clones, at all. Instead of expending energy, he's amassing it.
3- In fact, the only person attacking the clones is... Lobo. He's sending them hurtling to the Earth, and then he's maybe throwing a moon at them.
4 - DS doesn't get to dictate what the clones do, because they're separate characters. Instead he relies on them retaliating against their attacker. Therefore, they attack Lobo.
5 - Meanwhile, Black Bolt is safe and sound. He can track Lobo. He can take out the spacehog, put Lobo in a force field, and sleep him for a quick and simple win.


Smurph showed that bb can influence a person and provided an example Smurph wanted to fly up in the atmosphere while powering his shields and amassing energy and then pick off the lobo clones as they tried to get at him. Good strategy. Fly out of reach, shielded and let the clones kill themselves.

Darksaint had lobo retreat to create more clones which then create more clones. Unlimited amount of clones, billions upon billions.
So DS has the numbers advantage but how does he use them? Especially if BB can influence the clones.

DS asked Smurph to prove that bb can influence multiple people from a distance and i didn't see an acceptable answer. I did not see any proof that he can influence hundreds of clones from within the shield while working from hundreds of miles way. Because of this, i have to conclude that BB isn't able to influence the clones or a number that would make a difference in this battle.

DS showed that the clones all have lobo’s memory so they will know they have to attack bb. He also showed multiple examples of the clones working together. Now its 1 against billions upon billons of lobos.
Since the clones aren't killing each other Smurph's next route is to track and trap spacehog with lobo in a energy field. Can he find Lobo, trap him and then put him to sleep? DS showed that lobo is just as good as a tracker as BB, a good tracker also covers his tracks but he is also faster than BB. Spacehog is FTl, DS limited it to light speed and this still puts him above BB in the speed department.

Now the battle.

DS never wanted lobo to meet BB head on in NYC and stated multiple times that was not his intent. He was has lobo just chill/ fly back and forth from the moon. BB fly up into the atmosphere and ammasses energy, a great tactic but while BB is increasing his energy, DS has the clones creating weapons, spacehogs, farting nuclear blasts at BB while billion other clones with super strength try to reach and smother him wwz style. BB can evade and blast a few clones leaping at him but hundreds, thousands, millions? BB is now blasting and avoiding clones leaping at him but then hes going to see nuclear fart blasts, hundreds of them maybe even get hit by a few and then before he knows it, hes going to be met with clones shooting and coming at him using spacehogs and then BB looks up at the sky and what's that? the moon is headed right at him.



Smurph is a great debater but he's outnumbered, literally billions to one and there is no time limit in this battle or rounds. Sure he can maybe influence a few but i can't go with the clones fighting each other because it happened one time while they have worked as a team many other times. Maybe after they kill BB they may start a fight between themselves but DS took care of that problem by having the main man throw the moon at them.

I've read the posts multiple times and based on the strategies presented by the opponents, my vote goes to DS with Lobo taking the win here.

Good job guys, it was fun trying to imagine this battle with the strategies you guys were using.

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Smurph's plan is to get high in the air, charge up, have the clones fight each other, stay out of range and if need be avoid, and grab the OG Lobo in an energy field and put him to sleep.

DS started very similar to last, creating clones, going to the Moon while the clones make more clones, while possibly throwing the Moon at Smurph. As well as.....flatulence as an attack. Unconventional to say the least, but it is Lobo. He also argued Black Bolt to have weak reserves.

Smurph's second and third post pushed arguing the clones fight each other, and Lobo as well. He showed it saying the adolescent clones are going after who shot Lobo, then they'll go after each other. Using this he argues that they will actually target Lobo, as DS created them by spitting blood around the city, so they're going for revenge on him. In his last post he further argued it by showing a large group of clones getting into a fight really quickly.

But DS convinced me this isn't a valid argument. He showed at least 3 examples of this not happening, two clearly them working for a common goal. Smurph's scan of them fighting each other in just panels looks like they were there without purpose, which on their own doesn't go against the scans DS showed.

DS argued that Black Bolt would get depleted quickly, and showed examples ranging from statements to him tiring during use to collapsing after use.

Smurph argued Black Bolt has great reserves. But two of his examples, powering his city's generator, and sustaining the life force of his people(which DS pointed out they collapsed after), don't show him multitasking as DS pointed out. His scans of Bolt multitasking and fighting were ok, but fighting against cannon fodder that far as I'm aware are feat-less. While he had help. Against just Lobo in a more conventional? Sure, but this isn't just Lobo and not a conventional fight.

Smurph's arguments for tracking Lobo on his bike were lacking. If we were talking just to find Lobo I can see it, but I saw nothing to support the argument he can track it coming near him, at the speed it can go, and accurately catch Lobo in an energy field, or do anything to the bike at its speed. Smurph tried to argue the only examples for its speed are dubious statements.....one of those statements is the son of Brainiac, and we also see the bike flying out of the pull of a black hole.

Smurph didn't show anything to back the argument he nudges the clones to fight each other, or hypnosis would be effective against anything but a just standing still close range Lobo.

While DS made a convincing argument on Bolt's vulnerability to gas(which actually flatulence is potentially lethal if there's enough, and.....well Lobo has more than enough), I don't see it working with Bolt high in the atmosphere.

Smurph arguing DS is "all over the place" is true, but doesn't make any significant arguments against the strategy changing. DS showed multiple examples of Lobo's intelligence and ability to utilize it. Hell even using scraps to make ridiculous weaponry. Smurph keeping his plan simple doesn't help when Lobo is free to create any manner of weapons while clones are going after Bolt.

So Smurph failed to show Black Bolt able to control or even influence the clones, ability to hypnotize Lobo without him being still and close, to stop the bike or catch Lobo at the speeds he can go, and is just going to wait for the opportunity to hypnotize Lobo to sleep.

DS showed the clones will complete the mission before fighting each other, the speed the bike can go, and an ability to make weaponry to attack Smurph at range, or even just throw the Moon at him, while making Black Bolt's ability to maintain energy at this level against this many opponents questionable at best. So my vote goes to DarkSaint.

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First thing's first. Hell of a match, guys. Smurph made a far better case for Black Bolt than I had expected even in knowing that Lobo was a broken character (to put it mildly).

Right from the start, Smurph had me actually thinking that Blackbolt could actually beat Lobo. His case was straight to the point, well-laid out, and his scans were clear enough that they made the point without making me think "but are you sure that's the right interpretation?" like I do so many times on the board. I know next-to-nothing about the character, but after reading Smurph's posts I feel like I got an education.

Gushing as that might be, I have to also commend DS. As crazy as his plans were, I still felt like they showed enough of what Lobo was capable of to make me seriously worry about Blackbolt. DS, to me, felt like he had thought it through enough that he was making sure to have at least one plan that was bound to succeed.

The farting thing... well, I don't even know where to start with that. As much as I could believe that I might see it in a comic, it still felt like it wasn't proven as a legitimate tactic nearly enough. Thank god.

Okay, so, the argument about the clones. I have to be honest, it still feels like some rotten comic inconsistency. And that both arguments about the clones have merit. DS using Death Metal didn't help his case, as that's a piss poor series, but he did enough to make me think that Smurph's assertion that the clones would massacre each other was done and dusted. I did feel, though, that DS was stretching things a bit, as he seemed to be implying that he had some kind of instantaneous army ready to go. Quick is not instantaneous, even if I will grant DS that Smurph initially didn't provide enough proof of Blackbolt's speed.

In the closing posts, I did feel like Smurph had a consistent strategy, whereas DS almost felt like at times that he was throwing everything at the wall and seeing what might stick. The problem for Smurph was, that DS had picked enough solid choices that something, inevitably, would stick. And, this is Lobo. Chaos is very much in his wheelhouse, and the tactics that DS's Lobo could have employed didn't seem to be remotely out of character.

Smurph's closing posts set aside any doubts I had about Blackbolt's speed or energy stores.

DS's closing posts... I gotta say, there were times when I didn't buy what he was selling, and times where I had to admit, the man had done his homework. So kudos on that. For example, when the clone argument came up again, I felt like DS had shown enough to at least cast doubt on the assertion that they would all start killing each other as opposed to going after the other guy that's flying away. That isn't a Lobo.

What it came down to, what it always comes down to, is who I feel is the likeliest to win. And from that alone, I felt like Darksaint just had enough on display, and enough flexibility in his plans, to make it a hell of a time for Blackbolt while on the other hand, I just wasn't sure that Blackbolt was going to be able to do what Smurph said he would, without getting massacred.

Great match guys, but I have to go with Darksaint.