Numerology?
Hm, in the Bible, the Nine stands for "consolidation, conservation, humanness", as do the Nazgûl with their very human greed for power that makes them what they are; it's also at the same time the contradicting union of unfinishedness and ultimate completion, the 'cycle of growth' (nine generations between Adam and Noah and again from Noah to Abraham, 'development'; Abraham btw received his new name with 99 years 😛); in the NT it rather symbolises Revelation; in the Apocalypse itself, there are two numbers, both vibrating to a Nine - 666 (6+6+6=18; 1+8=9) and 144,000 (1+4+4=9); but whereas the 144,000 refer to the 'developed and saved humanity', the 'Number of the Beast' (Rev. 13:18) stands for humanity functioning at the materialistic un-regenerated level, being lost; between the two again the evolution or cycle of growth... all in all a very 'human' number
Christ's words on the cross "It is finished" were also spoken in the ninth hour btw
Seven in contrary in the Bible absolutely doesn't represent anything evil, rather 'cyclic fullness' (creation in seven days etc)
As one of the Sephiroth of the Cabbalah, Nine is "the sphere of Yesod. This is also called the Foundation. Nine is the Trinity of Trinities, the Everything of the system in opposition to the nothing of the Zero. It is the number of Energy and Power, the Infinite Fire of Love and Warmth. Nine is able to activate, deactivate, and even neutralize the other spheres and all numbers. It is symbolic of Achievement, Perfection, Completion, and Efficiency." - has little to do with the Nazgûl, except maybe the last part laughing
In Tarot, Nine is the step towards realisation of self. The previous numbers all include a certain diversity, but Nine is the "return of awakening back into the One"; Seven there is coming into movement, a desire to move heavenward from the first Golden Throne (six).
I hate interpretation 🤓
We already had a very interesting thread about frequent numbers in LOTR (mainly 3, 7, 9, 12):
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f34/t28756.html
*quotes*
Originally posted by shadowy_blue
[...]
For 7:
There was the White Tree of Gondor with 7 flowers
There was the 7 Stars that were the emblem of Elendil and his heirs
There are 7 palantiri (the 8th is in the Tower of Avallónë)
There also 7 forefathers of the Dwarves.
7 sons of Fëanor
Seven Rivers of OssiriandThere are many especially of the number 9:
9 Nazgûls
9 members of the Fellowship
Frodo ends up with 9 fingers
Sauron had 9 fingers
is it maybe...like Nazgûls X Fellowship,Frodo X Sauron?
[...]
7 to the Dwarves
9 to the Kings of Men
"Tall ships and tall kings
Three times three, [=9]
What brought they from the foundered land
Over the flowing sea?
Seven stars and seven stones
And one white tree."
Originally posted by Exabyte
... there are also the Seven Rivers of Ossiriand ("seven-river-land"😉, Seven Stars in the Valacirca (ie. all the planets except for arda - which is the center - and Venus which is Earendil and not a star), Seven Palantíri, Seven Stars of Elendil, seven great rivers in Southern Gondor, seven levels and seven gates in Minas Tirith, Seven Gates of Orfalch Echor and the Chamber of Mazarbul is on the 7th sole of Moria.
[...]
7 is the sum of God (3) and the World (4), so the perfect union 😄 (see 7armed candle thing, 7 days of creation, 7 sins (and their 7 positive counterparts), 7 sacraments and so on9 is three times three, there are 9 steps of salvation and jesus died in the 9th hour of roman time.
Originally posted by Firithlotwen
http://www.quicksilver899.com/Tolkien/Tolkien_Dictionary.html
[...]
Seven could be summed up as a number of 'redemption'; it can be divided into the creative force of four and the divine principle of three. The Dwarves were 'redeemed' by Ilúvatar after Aulë created them covertly prior to the awakening of the Elves; their creation was outside the will of Ilúvatar, and Aulë, in his shame, was prepared to destroy these hapless creatures. He raised his great hammer to crush them while they cowered in fear and begged for mercy. The Supreme Being had compassion on the Dwarves and stayed Aulë's hand. He willed that the Dwarves sleep until after the time of awakening of the Quendi, the first of the Children of Ilúvatar.Because Aulë was the Vala of crafting and fashioning, the Dwarves were intended to be craftsmen, thus the involvement of the creative force of four; since they were created directly by a Vala, rather than in the process of the will of Ilúvatar, and survived by divine judgment, they enjoyed a special divine destiny, thus the involvement of three.
Nine is a number of man; some modern scholars dispute this evaluation, but a review of ancient cosmologies, including the early Christian church, will confirm this analysis. Nine holds the promise of ten - perfection - just by proximity. The number nine is subject to both six, the only 'evil' number, and three, the divine principle. The nature of man is forever torn between the lusts of pride and flesh on the one hand, and the noble values of a divine nature on the other.
Thus Sauron, through Professor Tolkien, assigns three rings to the Elves, seven to the Dwarves and nine to men. If the Elves would bring an alliance of their three rings with the nine rings of men, the combined power would equal twelve; twelve is a worldly number, a number of material completion. The combination would provide considerable power to the alliance, but not a match for the supernatural power of one: the One Ring.
[...]
Originally posted by Exabyte
About numbers in the bible (and elsewhere):
http://www.swedenborgdigitallibrary.org/LP/lp32.htm
http://www.anycities.com/hilltop/chap2s.htm
http://www.endtime.org/library/articles/symbolism.html
http://www.hkbu.edu.hk/~ppp/gl/GL5.html
http://www.greatdreams.com/nine/nine.htm
http://www.bach-cantatas.com/Topics/Numbers.htm
http://freepages.history.rootsweb.com/~catshaman/17Scanastro/07Scanas.htm3 = the number of steps in the process of simple synthetic integration, and the number of explicit elements;
7 = the symbol of logical systemization on a higher level, as a dynamic
process involving self-renewal and transformation (= 3+4);9 = the number of steps (and elements) in the operation of second level synthetic integration;
12 = the perfection of logical systemization on the level of a single system (3.4).
Originally posted by Exabyte
Interestingly twelve also occurs in earlier versions of the ringverse:Twelve for Mortal Men doomed to die,
Nine for the Dwarf-lords in their halls of Stone (!),
Three for the Elven-kings under the sky,
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne.and later
Nine for the Elven-kings under moon and star (!),
Seven for the Dwarf-Lord in their halls of stone,
Three for Mortal Men that wander far
One for the Dark Lord on his dark throne
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.
One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them
One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them
In the Land of Mordor where the shadows are.
Originally posted by Raven Guardia
[...]
SEVEN~
Seven signifies mental perfection, healing, completion, music and attainment of high spirituality. Additionally, you are unique and eccentric.NINE~
Nine denotes completion and that you are on a productive path. Rebirth, inspiration and reformation. You are seeking to improve the world.
Originally posted by Raven Guardia
[...]because the nine means complete and to me the way shadowy_blue discribed the charecters for nine it makes sense that is complete. and for the number seven, shadowy_blue said that there was seven stones and seven stars. well the number seven often represents (in greek mythology) that the earth was made in seven days, and the first seven planets. If this confueses any one look back at page one and I have the meanings of the numbers.....maybe one of you can figure some thing out
Originally posted by Exabyte
3 and 9 occur quite often as theyre important numbers in the duodecimal system (based on 12 while our decimal system is based on 10) that is always present in Tolkiens works as its far more natural than the decimal system somehow / you also often have the words dozen and gross as parts in this system, and practically all the calendaries in middleearth are based on it.
Originally posted by Exabyte
Numerology?
Hm, in the Bible, the Nine stands for "consolidation, conservation, humanness", as do the Nazgûl with their very human greed for power that makes them what they are; it's also at the same time the contradicting union of unfinishedness and ultimate completion, the 'cycle of growth' (nine generations between Adam and Noah and again from Noah to Abraham, 'development'; Abraham btw received his new name with 99 years 😛); in the NT it rather symbolises Revelation; in the Apocalypse itself, there are two numbers, both vibrating to a Nine - 666 (6+6+6=18; 1+8=9) and 144,000 (1+4+4=9); but whereas the 144,000 refer to the 'developed and saved humanity', the 'Number of the Beast' (Rev. 13:18) stands for humanity functioning at the materialistic un-regenerated level, being lost; between the two again the evolution or cycle of growth... all in all a very 'human' number
Christ's words on the cross "It is finished" were also spoken in the ninth hour btw
Seven in contrary in the Bible absolutely doesn't represent anything evil, rather 'cyclic fullness' (creation in seven days etc)As one of the Sephiroth of the Cabbalah, Nine is "the sphere of Yesod. This is also called the Foundation. Nine is the Trinity of Trinities, the Everything of the system in opposition to the nothing of the Zero. It is the number of Energy and Power, the Infinite Fire of Love and Warmth. Nine is able to activate, deactivate, and even neutralize the other spheres and all numbers. It is symbolic of Achievement, Perfection, Completion, and Efficiency." - has little to do with the Nazgûl, except maybe the last part laughing
In Tarot, Nine is the step towards realisation of self. The previous numbers all include a certain diversity, but Nine is the "return of awakening back into the One"; Seven there is coming into movement, a desire to move heavenward from the first Golden Throne (six).
I hate interpretation 🤓
We already had a very interesting thread about frequent numbers in LOTR (mainly 3, 7, 9, 12):
http://www.killermovies.com/forums/f34/t28756.html*quotes*
I didn't expect a answer THAT long! 😆
Originally posted by Sicky666
I expected to hear some explanation about the rings and to who they were given...
As for "to whom they were given" - four of them are stated to have been Black Númenóreans, seems logical as they already showed earlier that they welcome Sauron; the others were mainly Easterlings and Southrons or maybe leaders of smaller tribes in the Northwest of Middle-earth, generally all those that had no friendly relationship to the royal family of the ex-Númenóreans
Re: The Nazghul and Their Number...
Originally posted by Sicky666
What I've always wondered is the question why the Nazghul are nine and not seven, because seven is the number of Evil, this can't be the reason...
Do you know the meaning of the Number Nine?
The answer lies within the entire Tolkien verse: "One Ring To Rule Them All, One Ring To Find Them, One Ring to Bring Them All, and IN The Darkness Bind Them".
The line from the verse reads " Nine for Mortal Men doomed to die". The Nine were once great kings of old, so Sauron the deceiver gave to them nine rings of power, and watched as each fell into darkness.
There is no significance to the number 9.