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yes true he was a week one. If it had been GOTHMOG leader and captain of the balrogs sauron would die. But i feel LOTRs gives a faulse impression of sauron he is strong in the time and age LOTRs is set BUT he is Morgoths right hand man because he is smart and can mess with mens minds and in the early ages his is not known for his streanth but his cunning hense he is a shape shifter so if you have read all tolkien going you would no that sauron would get pummled by most of the balrog (maybe not that weak-ass one on LOTRs)
Sauron was Melkor's second-in-command, and often referred to as Melkor's "greatest success". There is no reason to think, that Sauron would lose against Gothmog.
__________________ "Nothing pisses me off more than when I have an amazing new idea, and then someone says, 'Wow, God is soooooooooo smart for thinking of that.' It makes me want to throw a brick in their face."
I think the argument has to be made for physical or combat prowess and other areas of knowledge. Its a well respected fact that Melkor was the mightiest among the Valar, Eru made it so. However physically combat wise he is considered to be outmatched by Tulkas. Think of it as a points system whilst Morgoth had more points than all the other Valar he distributed them in different areas, Tulkas for example put the majority if not all of his "points" into physical combat and prowess thusly especially after Morgoth split his powers between that and his "agents" Tulkas was mightier than he in physical combat.
This could be seen the same with Sauron, as a Maia of Aule his points were probably into the making of things, lore and knowledge. We know he had talents when it came to persuading people it is unlikely that the bulk of his points were in physical combat and so forth and as such it is possible he would have fallen to Gothmog. Being a Balrog they were if my perceptions are right quite build for and based upon combat rather than the making of great works or lore and this is probably where their "points" lay.
The "points" method is somewhat crude but this is how it was explained to me and it makes my point adequately.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Sauron lost in a fight in a giant dog (Huan). A Balrog beats him everytime. Also I do not believe the Balrog in LOTR was weak just not the best. Sauron in the LOTR is weaker than his original form because he does not have the ring and would definitely lose because of it.
The greatest servant does not mean that hes the greatest in combat, in over all power and knowledge yes. Like I said before Melkor was the "greatest" of the Valar but Tulkas could at least match if not better him in physical combat.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
I know he learned it from Aule, but to learn that would imply that he wouldn't be the best at other things like combat. Just because he wasn't as good as a Balrog in combat wouldn't mean he wasn't the "Greatest Servant" thats too much of a binary choice. Tolkein wrote in balance and summing up all his abilities gives the sum of the whole and whole would indeed be that he was the most powerful of Morgoths servants in a vast array of areas.
Of course if any balrog could defeat him it would have to be the greatest among them, and even then its touch and go. The way I see all Maiar and Valar is that they have specialisations, Radagast being of Yavanna was more in touch with nature, Saurman being also of Aule was great in craft, Sauron being of Aule then I would also see his skill learnt of not would be in craft not in acts of war, a Maia of Tulkas I would see as more warfaring.
One must also ponder, if Sauron with the ring could be killed by a combined effort of Elendil and Gil-Galad would not the greatest of the balrogs stand a similar chance?
I shall look into this more, the question interests me yet the true answer eludes me. Never the less an interesting debate.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
In the earliest of days, before the godlike Valar entered the realm of Arda, Sauron originated as a spirit called a Maia. He was at first one of the most powerful servants of Aulë the Smith, one of the Valar or ruling powers of the world.
Sauron was soon subverted by the Dark Lord Melkor (later known as Morgoth), an evil Vala, and thereafter served Morgoth faithfully, even in later days after Morgoth was defeated and cast outside the confines of the world. Sauron encouraged and coerced Men to worship himself and Morgoth as gods. While Morgoth wanted to either control or destroy the very matter of Arda itself, Sauron's desire was to dominate the will of its creatures.
During the First Age, the Ñoldorin Elves left the Blessed Realm of Valinor in the Uttermost West against the counsel of the Valar to wage war on Morgoth, who had stolen the precious Silmarils. In that war Sauron served as Morgoth's chief lieutenant, surpassing all others in rank. Only Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, equalled him. Known as Gorthaur the Cruel, Sauron was at that time a master of illusions and changes of form; werewolves were his servants, chief among them Draugluin, Father of Werewolves, and his vampire herald Thuringwethil. When Morgoth left Angband to corrupt the newly awakened Men, Sauron directed the war against the Elves. He conquered the Elvish isle of Tol Sirion, so that it became known as Tol-in-Gaurhoth, the Isle of Werewolves, and there he was known as their lord.
Ten years later Finrod Felagund, the king of Nargothrond and former lord of Tol Sirion, died protecting Beren in captivity there; soon afterwards Lúthien and Huan the Wolfhound defeated Sauron in that place and rescued Beren from the dungeons. After his resounding defeat by Lúthien, Sauron played little part in the events of the First Age (possibly hiding from Morgoth), and after his master was defeated and cast out by the Valar, Sauron repented (apparently, and probably only out of fear) and pled for mercy. But he was unwilling to return to the Utter West for judgement, and so fled and hid in Middle-earth.
Okay, interesting lore but I don't quite grasp what you are trying to prove to me it states right in your text "Only Gothmog, the Lord of Balrogs, equalled him" furthermore it does indicate that Sauron was the Greatest of Saurons Lieutenants a fact of which I am not denying. What I am questioning is Saurons ability in pure brute force combat. Whilst he may be able to shift form, command illusions and command vast armies the passage doesn't really shed much conclusive light on his combat prowess. How well he performed where the "metal meets the meat" to coin a phrase is not specifically touched upon save the quote mentioning his defeat by Lúthien and Huan the Wolfhound.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
Gothmog; this thread is Balrog not Gothmog. Gothmog is the only Balrog to be known by name so if it was him it would say Gothmog vs. Sauron
Luthien helped Huan defeat Sauron by casting a spell on him that weakened him. What's to stop Sauron from shifting his form to become a Balrog or a Winged-Dragon that was said to be stronger then the Balrogs. Sauron was capable of becoming what he wanted; not any Balrog could do this and Sauron was soon unable to do this after the forging of the One Ring or around that time.
About seven posts in someone mentioned Sauron vs Gothmog I was carrying on from that I will gladly admit that against any "normal" Balrog Sauron would win. For example, the one Gandalf fought wouldn't stand a chance. Is there any record of how far Saurons shape shifting powers could go? I know he could take human and elven form, also the form of a wolf, serpent and that of a bat however could he manifest himself as another "Angelic Race" form for example that of another Maiar a Balrog for example. I can find no concrete evidence on either front if he could, or could not I will accept on the central argument
Sauron V an un named Balrog Sauron would likely triumph.
__________________ Yet the making of things is in my heart from my own making by thee; and the child of little understanding that makes a play of the deeds of his father may do so without without thought of mockery, but because he is the son of his father.
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May 21st, 2006 12:57 AM
