The Jedi Council faults into letting the Sith overthrow them are 2:
1. Being too much involved into politic:
Acting in this way they become more kind of elitè soldiers than Jedi Knights, they were forced to discuss with the Senate and politicians, while an order like that of the Jedi should be a kind of superior power able to operate for peace and justice with being merely influenced from what the Senate sayed or decide.
2. Being so such arrogant:
Jedi Council wasn't sufficiently focused into using the Force to feel what was gonna happen or to detect incombent dangers.That, mixed with Sidious outstanding control on the Dark Side, let the Sith acting under the nose of the Jedi, they were sitting near their major enemy everyday without even suspecting of who he really was.
Plus their convinction of the Sith Order being extinguished, make them acting in that foolish way.Yoda himself always sayed that the Dark Side is hard to detect, but come on, all those powerful masters with Yoda himself didn't even try to organizate an assembly of the Council after they discover that Maul was a Sith to use their force powers to detect other Dark Side users.They feel they can handle the return of the Sith and the result was they get a collective asskicking.
Major arrogance will be showed from Windu, 5 Jedi to arrest a Sith, but if he knows that Palpatine maybe the Sith Master himself, he should took in the Chancellor lair 10/12 Jedi and wipe the floor with him.
I don't think it's arrogance at all that was stopping Yoda and the others to see palpatine's true nature. It's just as they said, the dark side is hard to detect, and Sideous was very careful about masking his true identity.
But you're right, Windu is very arrogant, and it started the chain of events leading to the end of all the jedi. If he wasen't pushing for the destruction of Sideous so hard, this never would have happened. Yoda didn't agree that they should go in and confront palpy, and as it turns out, he was right. But windu, the arrogant (and partially evil) guy that he is, wanted blood, and as a result, it cost him his life, the lives of the unprepared jedi he took with him, and all the jedi that died after that. Once he beats palpy and has him defenseless, he should have arrested him. It is very un-jedi like to actually want to give the finishing blow and kill a defensless man that is begging for his life, despite who he is. If he arrested palpy like he should have, Anakin would not have interfered. But mace went Loco for a few minutes, and wanted blood, and that is what Anakin saw, and interfered with.
Windu and his arrogance is the indirect cause of the Jedi's downfall.
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" while an order like that of the Jedi should be a kind of superior power able to operate for peace and justice with being merely influenced from what the Senate sayed or decide."
Oh SHOULD it now? Should declare itself 'superior' to a democratically elected body on the basis of birthright, should it? I have heard this sort of silly thinking before, that politics is somehow innately wrong and that the Jedi should be able to dominate it.
What is amazing is that you follow this up by saying that arrogance was a failing of the Jedi. You then make a load of speculation that seems to make little sense, implying that they could have discovered the Sith threat when the films make it clear they could not, and say this having just urged them to act in the most amazingly arrogant and abusive way!
The Jedi are a police force. They serve the Republic as best they can- they are not its masters! You want them to turn the Republic into a police state. Nice one. The sign-up sheet for the Empire is just over there.
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Last edited by Ushgarak on Apr 26th, 2005 at 02:22 PM
So what would have happened if Windu did arrest Sidious? I can see the senate scene now.
Senate: Why do have the Chancellor in chains?"
Windu: "Chancellor Palpatine is really the Master of the Sith."
Senate: "That's absurd. Prove it."
Windu: "Palpatine...uh...shoot lightening or something."
Sidious: "What are you talking about Master Jedi? I don't know how to shoot lightening. I'm just an innocent old man. Why are the Jedi doing this?"
blah, blah, blah.
I don't think arresting him is a viable option at all...noone will believe that the leader of the Republic for the past 13 some years is really an evil wizard. The people would just assume the Jedi are trying to take power. Either way I think the Jedi are screwed.
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Maybe they should record the fight with Palpatine to prove it, or maybe Windu should ask a Clone Trooper to shoot at Palpatine in the head, resulting in Palp deflecting the shot and showing all the Senate he's the Sith Master.
There was nothing defenseless about Palpatine, he was acting like that because of Anakin; he was trying to manipulate Anakin against Mace and the Jedi. It worked.
And like said, arresting Palpatine wouldn't get them anywhere, no one would believe that he was the Sith Lord.
yeah too bad the clones are totally loyal to the Republic and its leaders huh? Cuz they won't do that. And record it? C'mon. The only way to deal with a sith is to kill it. How long do you think they could hold Palpatine? He can electrocute a whole room full of people if he wants to. He can use the force to unlock binders, as we've seen in ROTJ, and can readily assume since he's a force user and thats a simple manuver. There's no way Mace could have held him long enough to take him before the Senate. And Palpatine would no doubt sense their filming of it and destroy the recording device, since there's no viable way to hide something like that in his office with out his knowing in the first place.
The whole thing is absurd, the Jedi being arrogant, and Yoda did agree they were, only led to them being blinded by the dark side. But you also have to understand, they haven't come across a Sith in 1,000 years ("the sith have been destroyed for a millenia"- Ki-Adi-Mundi). Does anyone here prepare for...say...a Barbarian horde to come rushing into your office killing everyone? No. Why? Because they're are no Barbarians anymore. So wouldn't you be caught off guard if you had to fight one suddenly? The Jedi aren't taught about the Sith because A: its dangerous, and B: they're "extinct". That's not arrogance, after a thousand years I'd be willing to believe some one was dead too. Bottom line, the Jedi were caught off guard, had their own troops turn against them, and had the public turn against them for being secretive (do you want all you weaknesses broadcast? Ok, neither do they) There's really nothing you can do against that.
I read the scene as him pretending to be helpless, since he'd be like "stop attacking me, I'm a defenseless old man...oh look, I'm kicking your ass..." No, I think that he was in total control the entire time, and was only stringing Mace along and trying to prove to Anakin that the Jedi were the bad guys.
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I don't think the fight shows evidence of that. And like I say, it destroys the entire point of Anakin's plot- that it was HIS intervention that made the difference- if Palpatine was faking. Nor do we have any inherent reason to believe that Palpatine HAS to be more powerful than the greatest of the Jedi.
If Palpatine was faking, the point of the scene is lost. It is more than Anakin's personal journey- it is Anakin's moment to affect the course of history for the entire Galaxy.
Windu COULD have killed Sidious. Anakin stopped him. That is the entire purpose of that plot.
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Maybe it'll be more obvious on screen, then, but that's how I took the scene to mean when I was reading the screenplay. I think we'll probably have to see it in action to really see how it happens.
I totally agree with You.I was just joking over Mista posted.
The major plothole is that:
Jedi can't kill defenseless foes, but that's kinda strange, cause obviously if Darth Maul was disarmed from Obi Wan and then was begging for mercy, would Obi Wan grant him mercy?No.
Mace Windu beheaded Jango Fett with ease, when he can simply cut off his weapons.
This is a war and the Jedi are soldiers in some way, Palpatine was a major enemy that with his powers and mastermind ability destroyed the Jedi, but also the Jedi didn't do something concrete to avoid this.It's a 65% Palpatine fault and 45% Jedi fault
that's not a plot hole, the jedi just don't use their powers for ATTACK, only DEFENSE, and if someone is intent on killing you, you have pretty much only one option: kill 'em first!
Glad that at least Ushgarak agrees with me on the Palpatine-Mace duel. Sometimes it seems like we're the only people here that didn't drink the kool-aid.
Apr 25th, 2005 08:53 PM
