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Anakin's Fall
Started by: jmoul

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jmoul
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Anakin's Fall

In Episode 3, there are multiple points where it is obvious that Anakin is sliding toward the dark side, yet for all of their wisdom, the Jedi Council continued to push him there.

My question is, why didn't the Council (or at least Obi Wan for that matter) sense Anakin's internal conflict and confusion until it was already too late to save him?

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 02:17 AM
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focus4chumps
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Re: Anakin's Fall

quote: (post)
Originally posted by jmoul
My question is, why didn't the Council (or at least Obi Wan for that matter) sense Anakin's internal conflict and confusion until it was already too late to save him?


i thought they were downright reckless for leaving his mother on tattoine. they knew he was attached so they at least they could do is offer her their protection even in the form of buying her out of slaver ffs. then to top it off yoda was fully aware of anakin slaughtering the tusken raiders and does...nothing. all he seems to do is give verbal warnings just to say "i told you so" and then goes on obvlivious.


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Last edited by focus4chumps on Mar 6th, 2013 at 03:58 AM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 03:54 AM
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Lord Lucien
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It's almost as if these movies... don't make any sense.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 04:33 AM
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Ushgarak
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Freeing her wouldn't help Anakin- it would feed into his problems. The lesson is that Anakin has to let go, and that's where he fails. You may disagree with GL's philosophy, but it is consistent.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 05:10 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by focus4chumps
i thought they were downright reckless for leaving his mother on tattoine. they knew he was attached so they at least they could do is offer her their protection even in the form of buying her out of slaver ffs. then to top it off yoda was fully aware of anakin slaughtering the tusken raiders and does...nothing. all he seems to do is give verbal warnings just to say "i told you so" and then goes on obvlivious.



What Ushgarak said.

Also, no, Yoda did not know that Anakin slayed those Tuskin raiders. He got a crappy glimpse of something shitty happening. Had Yoda actually seen Anakin in his vision, while meditating, Anakin would have been immediately arrested and tried* for his crimes...just the same as they tried to do to Palps (Mace was smarter: he knew they couldn't actually try Palps).



*There is nothing in the movies to suggest that there is a separate process for Jedi. He would have been treated the same as any mass murderer.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 05:38 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
*There is nothing in the movies to suggest that there is a separate process for Jedi. He would have been treated the same as any mass murderer.
Watch the newest episode of the Clone Wars, apparently the Order internally dealing with criminal Jedi without outside interference is "tradition". Makes you root for Tarkin of all people.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 06:23 PM
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nah, **** tarkin. even now he comes across as a horrible human being, imo.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 06:40 PM
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focus4chumps
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Freeing her wouldn't help Anakin- it would feed into his problems. The lesson is that Anakin has to let go, and that's where he fails. You may disagree with GL's philosophy, but it is consistent.


freeing her would have put her fate in her own hands, absolving the jedi of blame. instead they left her as a slave so that if at any point she had died as a result of her servitude anakin could have easily blamed the jedi. and he would have been kinda right to.


instead the crappy angle of "obi wan i holding me back from my superpowers"


what a godawful stupid movie


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"Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."

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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 06:55 PM
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dadudemon
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
Watch the newest episode of the Clone Wars, apparently the Order internally dealing with criminal Jedi without outside interference is "tradition". Makes you root for Tarkin of all people.


This made little to no sense to me. Like...are you saying the Jedi Order punished their own Jedi gone bad before Order 66 was issued?


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 07:04 PM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by dadudemon
This made little to no sense to me. Like...are you saying the Jedi Order punished their own Jedi gone bad before Order 66 was issued?


The Jedi disciplined their own, yes.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 07:11 PM
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Ushgarak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by focus4chumps
freeing her would have put her fate in her own hands, absolving the jedi of blame. instead they left her as a slave so that if at any point she had died as a result of her servitude anakin could have easily blamed the jedi. and he would have been kinda right to.


instead the crappy angle of "obi wan i holding me back from my superpowers"


what a godawful stupid movie


Freeing her- which they had no legal mandate to do, incidentally- would have simply validated Anakin's attachment to his mother and completely buggered up the entire philosophical basis on which they depend. It would have made Anakin worse, not better.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 07:14 PM
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focus4chumps
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Freeing her- which they had no legal mandate to do, incidentally- would have simply validated Anakin's attachment to his mother and completely buggered up the entire philosophical basis on which they depend. It would have made Anakin worse, not better.


how exactly was leaving her as a slave supposed to remove anakin's already apparent attachment? wasnt suggesting he should have moved in with her. and sure they couldnt just swoop in and free her by force, but they had no problem throwing money around for the sake of fixing the ship (another dumb plot point since they could have just traded it in for another....but i digress). why couldnt they just buy her freedom? it was clear that watto was not particularly interested in keeping shmi, so he probably would have caved in on a lowball bid.

not only that but they respond to his prescient visions of his mother's murder with basically "yeah yeah its just a stupid dream. stop acting a baby"

it would not have made anakin worse to buy his mother out of slavery. thats absurd. if anything it would have relieved the anxiety and guilt of leaving her in servitude.


__________________
"Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=denton+van+zan+vs

Last edited by focus4chumps on Mar 6th, 2013 at 07:53 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 07:48 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Freeing her- which they had no legal mandate to do, incidentally- would have simply validated Anakin's attachment to his mother and completely buggered up the entire philosophical basis on which they depend. It would have made Anakin worse, not better.
They didn't need to have her living with Anakin, but they certainly could have given him ease of mind by buying her, and setting her up somewhere on some peaceful world in the Republic. Teaching the ultimate Force pupil that the Order is willing to allow even his mother to wallow in slavery, while simultaneously propping up virtuous behavior and the pursuit of truth and justice, is more than a tad contradictory. It would give anyone pause to doubt and question.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:02 PM
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Ushgarak
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Buying her freedom is funding slavers and completely illegal- what a ridiculous move for them to make. They had absolutely no power or right to intervene on Tatooine at all. You seem to be basing your ideas on the Jedi wielding executive power- they are actually a police force.

And yes, leaving her there does cause Anakin difficulties. Yoda didn't even want him trained at all. But the bottom line was that every other option was worse, as it validates Anakin's attachment and buggers up the idea of letting go. If you don't think that's true, that's because you don't buy GL's philosophy, but again, it is consistently presented in the story.


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Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 6th, 2013 at 08:05 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:02 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Buying her freedom is funding slavers and completely illegal- what a ridiculous move for them to make. They had absolutely no power or right to intervene on Tatooine at all. You seem to be basing your idea on the Jedi like they wield executive power- they are actually a police force.
So wait... it's against Republic law to intervene on non-Republic worlds. And it's against Republic law to go to those worlds and engage in their economy?



Where is this stated in the movie?


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:06 PM
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focus4chumps
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Buying her freedom is funding slavers and completely illegal- what a ridiculous move for them to make. They had absolutely no power or right to intervene on Tatooine at all.


*except when using the force+gambling to cheat watto out of his property and place a child in mortal danger for material gain.




quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
You seem to be basing your ideas on the Jedi wielding executive power- they are actually a police force.

And yes, leaving her there does cause Anakin difficulties. Yoda didn't even want him trained at all. But the bottom line was that every other option was worse, as it validates Anakin's attachment and buggers up the idea of letting go. If you don't think that's true, that's because you don't buy GL's philosophy, but again, it is consistently presented in the story.


never suggested executive power or even the simple act of intimidation. just a simple purchase. why was it ok to finagle in order to win anakin and a ship part?

well thats the thing isnt it? we have to buy a philosophy that is convoluted in order to accept it. stepping back from the forced set of silly and hypocritical ethics of the PT jedi, do you feel it made sense?


__________________
"Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=denton+van+zan+vs

Last edited by focus4chumps on Mar 6th, 2013 at 08:10 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:08 PM
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Ushgarak
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If by 'engaging in their economy' you mean 'buying slaves' then yes, I would imagine that is completely illegal, and by the same token the Jedi had no mandate to interfere politically on Tatooine- they'd need political assent, which simply would never come. Do you think the NYPD can go and rescue political prisoners in Syria?


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"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

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Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 6th, 2013 at 08:11 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:09 PM
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Ushgarak
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by focus4chumps
*except when using the force+gambling to cheat watto out of his property and place a child in mortal danger for material gain.






well thats the thing isnt it? we have to buy a philosophy that is convoluted in order to accept it. stepping back from the forced set of silly and hypocritical ethics of the PT jedi, do you feel it made sense?


You are mistaking Qui-Gon for the Jedi. Qui-Gon's whole point is that he was a rule-breaking maverick who caused problems. Even so, he showed clear limits.

Personally, whilst his beliefs are not my own, I think GL's beliefs are one of the few things he clearly and logically presents on-screen. I don;t see them as conculuted or silly at all.


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"You've never had any TINY bit of sex, have you?"

BtVS

Last edited by Ushgarak on Mar 6th, 2013 at 08:14 PM

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:10 PM
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focus4chumps
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
ou are mistaking Qui-Gon for the Jedi. Qui-Gon;s whole point is that he was a rule-breaking maverick who caused problems.


ok, thats a good point. although it makes qui-gon look like a real jerk considering what he did vs. what he didnt do...especially since he was kinda flirty with shmi. man what a jerk.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
Personally, whilst his beliefs are not my own, I think GL's beliefs are one of the few things he clearly and logically presents on-screen. I don;t see them as conculuted or silly at all.


they threw anakin in a one-size-fits-all education refusing to take into consideration that he may need special treatment/arrangement.

they didnt have to be so anal about their philosophy, especially since holding strict to it proved reckless.


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"Your Lord knows very well what is in your heart. Your soul suffices this day as a reckoner against you. I need no witnesses. You do not listen to your soul, but listen instead to your anger and your rage."

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=denton+van+zan+vs

Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:14 PM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Ushgarak
If by 'engaging in their economy' you mean 'buying slaves' then yes, I would imagine that is completely illegal
It's fine to do business with known slavers and utilize his child slaves in a dodgy and dangerous gambling deal, but it's not okay to buy a slave and set her free? Not even for the purpose of securing the ease of mind and loyalty of one of the most powerful and "dangerous" Force users ever?


You know if the movie had flat out said as much, I'd have called it totally retarded, but at least it explained itself. But when it omits all sense of logic and explanation, and forces us to, as you put it, "imagine" in order to justify horrendous inconsistencies, then game over, man. Game over.


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Old Post Mar 6th, 2013 08:17 PM
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