Given the excessive amounts of arguments going on in the Vs. threads pertaining to this topic, perhaps we should keep those non-related debates in this thread.
No flaming, no insults, none of that name-calling and claims of ignorance. Just post your debate/opinion/point of view in here and argue it out.
Well I think I get this started here concerning the characters. One of the problems with it in the vs. thread is that old republic era (from the hyperspace war to probably around the time of bane ascension) is that the characters have much less sources and stories about them. Like when Marka Ragnos use to be top dog on here yet he had very few cameos. And more recently Exar Kun has been in a few debates like him vs anakin and mace. Kun has been in a few books as a ghost in which he does do incredible things but it doesn't match to what he can when he was alive. But the problem is that the comics can't give as much as a description as a book can.
Another thing is regarding the kotor characters is gameplay vs canon. Like recently it has been debated what saber styles the exile has and what force powers certain characters have (more recently it is malak in which this has been discussed.) Then we have lots of kotor fanboys like that spartan person who would stretch what characters could like he said that HK 47 could beat general grievous.
Bottom the problem with the old republic era is
1.Lack of material per character. (descriptions of characters and their powers)
2.What is canon and what is gameplay (ie. the kotor games)
3. FANBOYS
There's a constant debate over which Jedi were stronger, the battle-hardened Jedi of the Old Republic or the "Golden Era" Prequel Jedi.
It's evident from threads such as Revan vs. Luke and Malak vs. Vader that people have very opposing views between whether the average KotOR Jedi was stronger than the average Prequel Jedi.
I've got to give it to the PT Jedi by a narrow margin. They had a couple thousand more years to hone their skills, especially when it comes to lightsaber combat. Djem So saw its first action around Ruusan and Vaapad wasn't even out yet. I think out the sheer refinement, the Golden Era crowd is at a disadvantage. And are we counting Anakin in this? Because he could be a scale tipper too...
You also have to consider that Sith hadn't appeared for almost a millenia. PT Jedi weren't exactly masters of saber-to-saber combat.
I always look at the Battle of Geonosis as a prime example of the Jedi not being both skilled in strategy or saber combat. They fought terribly, and if they had used simple tactics such as moving into formations and defending the entrances, they would've fared much better. Not to mention every single user who died was a user of a style which was the least demanding of styles, even below Shii-Cho. That means that for every 212 Jedi, 200 of them would be using a style that doesn't allow them to effectively fight against virtually any enemy, especially a saber-wielding enemy. Council members were supposedly renowned by the likes of Count Dooku when he mentioned to Grievous the potential adversaries he could lose to, but look at their abilities to fight. Coleman Trebor dies relatively easy, Agen Kolar, Saesee Tiin, and Kit Fisto all fall incredibly easily to Sidious (who gave them ample time to defend themselves), and people like Grievous, who can be incapacitaed by a simple Force push, manage to take out huge amounts of Jedi relatively unscathed.
That is just one fight watch the video and you greivous dodging force attacks (at the battle of coruscant) from a healthy shaakjedi,dodges multiple missles from a gunship,fire from 3 arc troopers and can keep up a with a fast moving elevator. And it really doesn't matte rif they were not in in prime fighting condition because that doesn't affect how fast a force opush is because it is an instant move.
Last edited by Elite Hunter on Sep 22nd, 2007 at 11:07 AM
I agree with that part and thought about saying it. I didn't use it in my argument because I didn't want to be riding both sides off the fence.
But that is definitely what the GA Jedi havegoing for them over the PT ones.
True. The Sidious fight was embarassing on the 3 who died parts. When it comes down to the leadership and core members though, I still think the PT guys have it down.
During Ruusan(using it as an example-not sure exactly how far you're going back), arguably the two best champions in the Army of Light weren't even speaking at one point. During the Freedon Nadd uprising, Tott Doneeta flew to Ambria to ask for Jedi help. That seems like something that could have been hanlded by a call to the Temple in later times. The Order during the Clone Wars was more condensed and well... orderly. Everything was centralized at the Temple on Coruscant. I think organization brought solidarity and solidarity brought strength. Whereas the older era just seemed a bit more scattered to me.
I agree with Darth Hord. It's hard to say because there aren't books on any of the Old Republic characters. And while the Prequel trilogy has powerhouses like Sidious, Dooku, Yoda, Mace, Anakin and Obi-Wan, and then other strong people like Vos, Rancisis, Mundi, Koon, Drallig, Bondara, Maul, Grievous, Asajj, Sora, Depa, Kit, Kolar ect. The Old Republic powerhouses are Ragnos, Nadd, Revan, Traya, Bane, Kas'im, Nihilus, Sion, Malak, Kun, Ulic and the Exile with other strong people being Naga Sadow, Ludo Kressh, Bastila, Nomi, Arca, Kavar, Kopecz ect. it's hard to judge which era is stronger. Is Bane considered old republic, pt era or neither?
Are we comparing every character from the respective time periods or the respective Jedi Orders? Comparing the two Orders is ridiculous; verified and accepted G-canon sources ultimately dictate that the Jedi Order of the movies is, in terms of combat, superior to its ancestors and preceding incarnations. George Lucas referred to it as the "Golden Age of the Jedi" or "Prime of the Jedi" (I've read both), and as we know, Lucas's word cannot -- under any circumstances -- be disputed or contradicted. Meaning that, if somewhere in the KotoR series or Tales of the Jedi, it defies this accepted statement, it is therefore retconned and rendered incorrect.
People have attempted to argue that the "Golden Age" refers to numbers. This is not true, as the Complete Visual Dictionary explicitly states that the Jedi Order "dwindled down to a mere ten thousand". Others claim that it, unlike the Sith, "Golden Age" obviously implies differently based on Jedi principles. I find that line of thought to be unsupported, but nonetheless, people have offered that Lucas's statement could be regarding peace and prosperity. This, too, has been debunked. The Jedi, at this time, were knee-deep in political warfare and on the eve of the Invasion of Naboo, the precurser to the Separatist Crisis and -- ultimately -- the Clone Wars themselves, which was the most devastating and largest galactic war up to that particular point in history. Lastly, there have been a small portion who have claimed that Lucas referred to choreography. This, as well, has been debunked. It's common knowledge that, when comparing the prequel fight scenes to those of the original trilogy, Lucas has said that there have been "no real Jedi". Just a "half-trained boy, a crippled cyborg" and -- I believe -- "an old mystic" referring to Obi-Wan. Lucas is not contesting the power commanded by Vader or Kenobi at this point, just that they were not depicted fighting like real Jedi. Ergo, the comparison between trilogies is null and void.
Se7in, we've been through this, and only to the average movie-goer would that be the perception. A fully informed spectator, such as yourself, should surely realize that -- at this point -- the Jedi had been manipulated into a trap, their senses and precognition dulled by the machinations and dark side effects of Darth Sidious, who has been proven to have a much stronger effect on the Force than any Sith Lord prior.
For whatever reason, you don't seem to take this into consideration.
As an ardent Sidious-fan, even when I debate this fight scene to depict his skill, no one considers it to be a worthwhile representation of choreography. But Nai Fohl has proven that, according to Leeland Chee, the speeds and reflexes depicted in the movies do not contradict those of the Jedi depicted in the novels. In the novelization, Windu and Sidious are described to be "blurs" and yet -- in the movie -- they move with frightful lethargy. So, from a continuity perspective, Sidious could have been moving faster than the eye can see -- and the Jedi simply could not have kept up.
Likewise, you must remember two things:
1.) According to the novelization (a G-canon source): Kolar, Tinn, and Fisto are among "the greatest swordsmen the Order ever produced". This is unquestionable.
2.) According to George Lucas (the incontrovertible authority), you must be either 'Mace Windu or Yoda' to compete with Darth Sidious. That's not a detraction from the trio, as 99% of the KotoR Sith/Jedi would likely fall just as easily.
You have seemed to forget important facets of General Grievous's character.
- He has been trained in six Jedi fighting forms by Count Dooku.
- He has been fitted with neurocomputers enabling him to analyze and partially utilize Vaapad, "the deadliest" lightsaber form, notorious for unconventional methods of fighting.
- He is a tactical genius.
- His cyborg body allows him to summon more immediate strength, speed, and agility than most Jedi can compete with.
- He relies on trickery, fear, and surprise. He fights dirty.
- He can swing a lightsaber up to twenty strikes per second, which can even overwhelm -- if only temporarily -- Obi-Wan Kenobi's mastery of Soresu, the defensive form that withstood Anakin Skywalker.
...Again, how does this detract from those he killed?
I'm off to watch Resident Evil: Extinction. I'm fond of you, Se7in, I think you're an impressively skilled debater. But really, you can't argue with canon, your distaste for quotes notwithstanding. I look forward to your rebuttal, but it's obvious that the prequel trilogy Jedi Order are held in higher regard in terms of combat by the LFL authorities, and, ergo, are to be treated as such by everyone else.
Perhaps the Golden Age had to deal with the fact that the Jedi had not seen the Sith in so long, that they had become convinced that they didn't even exist.
And a good explanation for the way the Jedi fought in the OT movies has a lot to deal with the age and experience of the characters. Obi-Wan had been extensively training in the Force, not lightsaber skill and physical training. Luke had no formal lightsaber training, save his deflection practices with a Remote. A comparison can be made, because the OT "Jedi" were of a broken order with no combat practice in decades and only constant meditation.
I don't have skills in seeing the future, yet I know that enemy infantry must come into a walled-off battlefield through the entrance. Yes, they lacked the proper Jedi foresight they should of had, but it doesn't take a genius to have basic battle instincts. If you have a battalion of soldiers wielding melee weapons and have limited range, move them into tighter formations, especially if they have an ability to halt ranged attacks from the enemy.
Yet Obi-Wan, while off-balance as you can see, managed to do a backflip over Greivous and slice off two of his hands in under a minute. And Obi-Wan also used one of the most basic Force maneuvers, Force Push, to completely incapacitate him and disable his ability to fight with a lightsaber.
You've provided adequate arguments for Sidious, beside the quote of George Lucas, so I won't even attempt to argue against it. However, note that most of Sidious' God-like powers were utilized during the DE period, not the Prequel. During the Prequel Era, Sidious was merely a Sith Lord using influence to cloud the Jedi's foresight and judgement and to manipulate the courts and Anakin. He didn't summon these black holes and storms that his clone managed to, and that was WAY after the Prequel Era.
Let me know how RE: Extinction is. And I'm not a skilled debater in comparison to you, Janus, Advent (granted she throws insults and accusations much too easily, and a few others here.
Last edited by Se7in on Sep 23rd, 2007 at 04:42 AM
Sep 21st, 2007 10:36 PM
