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Vader's Legacy - Opinion on the Redemption of Vader
Started by: DarkSideisMeth

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DarkSideisMeth
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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Canada


 

Vader's Legacy - Opinion on the Redemption of Vader

I don't know how others feel, which is why I am starting this topic, but.

I don't think Vader stepping in to save his son from Sidious merits him returning to the light side as a force ghost alongside his mentor and Yoda and Qui Gon Jin, this was always a point of contention with me and the Star Wars Universe.

Disagreement? Agreement?


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2009 06:36 AM
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Lord Lucien
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One could argue that "Vader" didn't do shite. Anakin booted Vader out and he stepped in to save Luke.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2009 06:46 AM
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DarkSideisMeth
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Registered: Sep 2008
Location: Canada


 

Ohhh **** that, I guess one could argue that.
But I am totally opposed to that point of view.
Sometimes Anakin isn't held accountable for his actions because people simply say "well he was Vader then," I don't agree. He is still liable for Vader's actions. Maybe I'm too conservative, but I feel justified in that statement.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2009 07:05 AM
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Lord Lucien
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You're a fascist is what you are.

The idea of Anakin lieing dormant is supported by GL's decision to install Hayden as Anakin's ghost. One of the few changes to the OT I didn't mind.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2009 07:10 AM
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DarkSideisMeth
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Registered: Sep 2008
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A fascist eh,
Well Lucien thank you for revealing your own ignorance and trivializing a word already tossed around to lightly today. Interesting how you can take near any disucssion or piece of info I make and sit there and basically sit on GL's lap.

And here i clicked on this thread thinking I would find something interesting from you.

If this keeps up I will surely quit these forums,
Way to not produce anything of your own.


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2009 07:36 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by DarkSideisMeth
A fascist eh,
Well Lucien thank you for revealing your own ignorance and trivializing a word already tossed around to lightly today. Interesting how you can take near any disucssion or piece of info I make and sit there and basically sit on GL's lap.

And here i clicked on this thread thinking I would find something interesting from you.

If this keeps up I will surely quit these forums,
Way to not produce anything of your own.
You know what I love about people who take everything they read too literally? They're hypocrites. You come to this forum looking for interesting and intelligence eh? So do we. We have rules here. First and foremost, anything George Lucas says, is law. It's canon.

And you know what I love about ignorance? Every time I've been described as such it's because the accuser is ignorant too. Ignorant in the forum rules that are conveniently stuck at the top of thread list. Ignorant in their staunch resolve that just because they read it in their heads a certain tone, means the writer of the words intended them as such. benefit of the doubt... does no one love democracy anymore? Guess that would make 'em fascist, eh buddy?


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Old Post Jan 17th, 2009 07:43 AM
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Darth Truculent
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Registered: Nov 2008
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Anakin really didn't become Vader until the cleansing of the Jedi Temple and Mustafar. When his body was rebuilt and Sidious told him that he killed Padme, that's truly when Anakin "died" and became Vader. Later on the second DS, he was watching his son being tortured. I think anyone would intervene to save their child.

Look at Darth Revan - he killed numerous Jedi and was responsible for the Jedi Civil War. But he turned his back on the dark side with some help of course from Bastilla and the Council.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 02:14 AM
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Elite Hunter
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Revan isn't a good example since he originally didn't want to be redeemed, it was forced upon him and he was powerless to stop it. Then on Lehon his mindstate has been "contaminated" for a while.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 12:46 PM
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REXXXX
Networking

Registered: Nov 2001
Location: San Diego

Moderator


 

Indeed, Revan isn't a great example of that.

Lucien, Meth, please don't quarrel. It doesn't gain anything. In any case, I think that Lucien is right. Anakin was able to push off his Vader persona and shun the Dark Side when he rescued Luke, a selfless act which redeemed him. We don't really know how the Force ghost works, to be honest, though sacrificing yourself in a selfless act could be part of it. We don't know, nor will we.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 08:53 PM
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Col. Valerian
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True, Revan is not a really good example, since he originally didn't choose redemption.

But, he did have the choice to turn over to the dark side again, and he didn't take it, even knowing what he could become (once more) and the power he could gain. Surely that ought to count for something?


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 09:08 PM
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Elite Hunter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
True, Revan is not a really good example, since he originally didn't choose redemption.

But, he did have the choice to turn over to the dark side again, and he didn't take it, even knowing what he could become (once more) and the power he could gain. Surely that ought to count for something?


It doesn't count for to much in my book. You have to remember that his new mind was reprogrammed to be loyal to the republic,then you have all of his previous encounters with the sith, his new relationship with the jedi and party members, the lack of his full memories which contained the reason he became a sith in the first place and then we don't how much is personality traits were affected by his new found loyalty.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 09:30 PM
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Col. Valerian
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True.

But, he is still a Jedi, reprogrammed or not. He resisted an incredible temptation.

Although, I can't argue that much, because I don't even how does reprogramming minds work. If the mind reprogrammation only affects his personality traits, and not his loyalty or his morals (since his mind was erased, they may have only reprogrammed his memory and personality, not his loyalty) in my opinion, resisting that sort of temptation was impressive.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 09:36 PM
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Elite Hunter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Although, I can't argue that much, because I don't even how does reprogramming minds work. If the mind reprogrammation only affects his personality traits, and not his loyalty or his morals (since his mind was erased, they may have only reprogrammed his memory and personality, not his loyalty) in my opinion, resisting that sort of temptation was impressive.


Erm, I believe they did tamper with loyalty heavily. We don't know for sure how this mind reprogramming technique works but I find it difficult to believe that they can alter his personality. My theory (and keep in mind that it is only a theory) is that the kindness traits he portrays in kotor is/was apart of his real personality prior to his fall to the darkside. But some of personalty traits such as tactical skills, defiance(or headstrongness that led him to orignially defy the jedi council) and whatever trait you would attribute his willingness to fall to the ds were altered by experiences since his mind was reprogrammed. I hope I explained my views correctly.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 09:51 PM
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Col. Valerian
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Hmm... Well, I guess we'll never know.

But if they did temper heavily with loyalty, I do not understand why damn Vrook is so phucking worried about him betraying the Jedi and the Republic again... Makes no sense.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 09:58 PM
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Elite Hunter
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Cpt. Valerian
Hmm... Well, I guess we'll never know.

But if they did temper heavily with loyalty, I do not understand why damn Vrook is so phucking worried about him betraying the Jedi and the Republic again... Makes no sense.

I believe they still wanted him for memories/sith secrets, mainly the star forge. They were probably scared of him remembering his real identity or that some of his darker personality traits would reemerge. It is really complicated but the main is that Revan is far from a good example of redemption.

Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 10:17 PM
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Darth Truculent
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So, the Jedi Council used (I'm just going to call it this) selective behavior modification on Revan? I thought that was a trait only used by dark side users - mostly the Sith when one was turned. Cpt. Valerian maybe in KOTOR2 it's was ommitted that the Council tried the same with the Exile, but failed.

Elite, what you are saying does make some sense, but are not some Jedi prone to the darkside like Exar Kun and Anakin? I'm going to name a few: Revan, Exar Kun & Anakin were increbibly strong in the Force. But being that strong in the Force wouldn't you want more power? All three turned for various different reasons, but at the very core was power. When Revan fell he craved power from the ancient Sith. Exar Kun fell to conquer the galaxy & Anakin fell because he wanted to save Padme.

It's kinda ironic that Anakin turned to the darkside because of love, but it was love that saved him. Vader because a Jedi again when Luke was being tortured by the Emp. Luke had Vader at his mercy, but he didn't kill him - that had to have some impact on Vader's psyche.


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Old Post Jan 19th, 2009 10:27 PM
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Ushgarak
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Anakin died in a gesture of, if not redemption, then at least an attempt at atonement,. Obviously none of this obviates the guilt he has for his crimes and all those that died because of him, but at the same time he finally realised the truth behind all he had done and took action to save many many lioves as well- out of the prue, unattached love for his son, which was the only link back to the good man Anakin had tried to be (though, to watch the PT, he doesn't seem to try that hard).

You would be right to hate Anakin for what he did, you would be right, if he had lived, to imprison him for them, you would be right to curse him through history for it. But you would be wrong to deny hiom that gift of the Force because he did finally come good at the end for totally selfless reasons.


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Old Post Jan 24th, 2009 09:46 PM
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Jaeh
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*scratch head*

is what y'all sort of saying is that Anakin is not responsible for what Vader did?

I dunno.. maybe he wasn't Vader when he did lots of those things, but, Anakin still was the one who [i]turned/i], right? so in some sort of way, he was still responsible.. right?

...the way people keep separating Anakin from Vader... he does not have Dissociative Identity Disorder does he?


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Old Post Jan 25th, 2009 06:29 AM
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Lord Lucien
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It's not a bipolar issue, but Vader was the... personification of Anakin's Dark Side. Anakin-based, and Anakin-certified but not Anakin full.


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Old Post Jan 25th, 2009 09:49 AM
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Jaeh
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
It's not a bipolar issue, but Vader was the... personification of Anakin's Dark Side. Anakin-based, and Anakin-certified but not Anakin full.


Dissociative Identity = Multiple Personality Disorder, btw.

so its another one of Anakin's personalities? So does that mean he has the disorder - sort of, anyway?


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Old Post Jan 25th, 2009 02:01 PM
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