I would say Sidious/Yoda/Revan is on top they all knew alot
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Gideon made the perfect case for Sidious and Odan-Urr. Maybe Revan, but who the f*ck really knows for sure?
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But Advent has: Odan-Urr was the de facto grand master of the Order during his time according to the Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, which states several times that "he presided over Jedi assemblies".
"Until the Jedi Purge, the teachings of Jedi Master Odan-Urr formed a foundation for the Jedi Code. His insights into the will of the living Force were taught for millenia after his passing.
He achieved the rank of Jedi Master and presided over the Jedi assembly for more than six centuries. Many of his teachings came from these years of meditation, study, and conference with a multitude of Jedi Masters." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 6, pg. 99)
Odan-Urr is the grandfather of the modern Jedi Order, starting with his own. He is the only person in Star Wars history to have made amendments to the Jedi Code; something which all Jedi adhere to, and live by. His studies have lead to such an understanding of the principles of the light side that his writings on the Jedi Code, that is, the Force and the manner of how the Jedi react with it, are considered what shaped the Jedi Order up to what we see in the "Prime of the Jedi" - the Prequel Trilogy.
I know this may sound like a challenging task for someone like yourself, but just think about that. Thousands of years after his death, the Jedi still considered him possibly the most influential individual on their own religion and understanding of the Force.
How did he get this "knowledgeable", you may ask? The Great Jedi Library, the greatest collection of knowledge the Jedi Order had ever known, was founded by Odan-Urr. The library consisted of a plethora of scrolls, holocrons and information (both from the Jedi and the Sith) dating back to before the use of the hyperdrive. If we follow the galactic usage of the hyperdrive post-Rakata, that's 25,000 BBY. Ossus was destroyed in 3,996 BBY. What was contained there spanned well over twenty-thousand years; knowledge from the very establishment of the Jedi Order! The Jedi Archives of the PT were started with scraps that were preserved from the library on Ossus.
We get an idea about how much was lost and thus held in the noggin of Odan "The Enlightened One" Urr when the evacuations are nearing their end on Ossus due to the oncoming supernova.
"The emergency efforts of all the Jedi can barely scratch the surface of the knowledge entombed on Ossus" - the omniscient narrator telling us the capacity of information on Ossus. Tott Donetta goes on to say that even if they had an entire year, what's stored in the library could not be fully rescued.
Another indication of the sheer vastness of that Jedi Library is seen when Exar Kun storms Ossus, and takes with him a small fraction of scrolls and artifacts back to his base on Yavin IV.
The narrator described the limited quantity of texts that were gathered as "more wealth and knowledge than [Kun] could ever use".
To put all of this into perspective, Odan-Urr was the one who collected all that invaluable information, organized it, and studied it for well over a millennium. An emphasis on "studied" because that's precisely what he did. He was a scholar, devoting the majority of his life to expanding his knowledge base and meditating upon these findings every single day of his life and he's had more than a thousand years to do such. Of course his knowledge of the Force should be counted among the greatest.
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Last edited by Advent on Sep 7th, 2009 at 10:13 AM
Sorry Advent, but Odan Urr falls in the same category of unknown as Revan. His one feat included trying a wall of light technique on Exar Kun, failing, and dying. Also, prove he studied everything, or a fraction of what he put into the library. And finally, sith holocrons? No Advent, the extent of his sith knowledge was the ONE holocron he found a thousand years earlier, which Exar Kun then took from him.
Edit:
You'll have to explain how his "insights" equate to deep force knowledge or command of the force.
Prove it. Also, I hope you understand that I was referring to combat, which would make Odan Urr as unknown as Revan. Furthermore, there's no proof Odan Urr studied even a fraction of his own library, which goes back to the library analogy. His one showing was a failed technique against a more powerful opponent, followed by his death. His "insights" don't speak volumes for his supposed force knowledge. Try again.
One could argue Bane, since he learned what both Revan AND Naga Sadow knew (assuming that Revan and Sadow put all of their knowledge into their holograms).
Or Yoda, since he had like 800 years to study the ways of the Force.
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You just have to feel bad for TJ. After getting his ass curbstomped in the previous debate that was acknowledged by others, he has had no choice but to turn to delusion and denial as well as repeating what I say verbatim. I guess with that kind of ass kicking one ends up turning into a parrot. Priceless./
Originally posted by truejedi He has been full of that later. Fading farther and farther away from logic since I kicked his ass and he couldn't handle it!
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington You just have to feel bad for TJ. After getting his ass curbstomped in the previous debate that was acknowledged by others, he has had no choice but to turn to delusion and denial as well as repeating what I say verbatim. I guess with that kind of ass kicking one ends up turning into a parrot. Priceless./
???
I haven't read the argument, but was it you that said that jedi librarians don't have all that much knowledge about books?
Besides, TJ is more civilized then most people here.
Anyway, Yoda is as I said an obvious contender. He has had like 8 centuries to study the Force. That's like 8+ times the amount of studying time that most other jedi/sith got.
For sith, maybe Bane?
__________________ Introduce a little government. Upset the established gangs, and everything becomes order...
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Originally posted by Dr McBeefington Prove it. Also, I hope you understand that I was referring to combat, which would make Odan Urr as unknown as Revan. Furthermore, there's no proof Odan Urr studied even a fraction of his own library, which goes back to the library analogy. His one showing was a failed technique against a more powerful opponent, followed by his death. His "insights" don't speak volumes for his supposed force knowledge.
1.) "I was referring to combat" - We're discussing those who are the most knowledgeable in the ways of the Force. In that regard, Odan-Urr being an unknown is absolute nonsense. Although, for someone who claims to have read the TOTJ series, you certainly must have been seeing what you want to see when you read through GAotS & FotSE to suggest that he hasn't done anything combat-wise:
So as it would seem Odan wasn't useless, and Memit Nadill even gives his praise, and it's obvious that his Battle Meditation was needed to win the battle. So, for you to downplay him is ridiculous. Good thing, though, that I have the actual source material and logic to prove that assertion wrong.
Odan stripped ancient Sith of the Force after the events of his younger days, he fully mastered his Battle meditation, and spent a great deal of time reading upon the Force. He also was good enough to teach Nomi both of those techniques. To say that Odan is shown as "useless" is ridiculous.
Equip your spectacles.
2.) "There’s no proof Odan-Urr studied even a fraction of his own library" - His entire reputation is based around studying and meditating on those studies, and that is quite literally how he described himself. Did you even read anything from TOTJ? The omniscient narrator, his own master and colleagues are constantly referring to his deep studies, even going so far as having his own master, Ooroo, to say that "(Odan) would be content to spend (his) entire life in the company of scrolls and documents".
You've used the (admittedly logical) reasoning that Revan was a scholar; therefore he studied virtually everything he got his hands on. The same principle applies here because Odan-Urr was a scholar, only in his case devoting more time than anyone in the entire mythology to knowledge of the Force given that he's had one thousand years to do such!
3.) To address your quasi-point about the Sith holocron:
Originally posted by Dr McBeefington And finally, sith holocrons? No Advent, the extent of his sith knowledge was the ONE holocron he found a thousand years earlier, which Exar Kun then took from him.
Fact Check: "The library contained knowledge forbidden by the Jedi Order, such as Sith holocrons. Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 7, pg. 135).
Uh, Odan-Urr was the sole keeper of the Chamber of Antiquities where dark side artifacts were stored for 600 years. He's got more than "one holocron" in his possession and it isn't limited to just holocrons either. You’re talking out of your ass.
Moreover, from the source material itself we learn about what was contained in that one holocron:
"This is a very rare Sith holocron. In it we find the Sith’s own words, their teachings, and the histories of their dark lords…” – that alone eclipses the PT Jedi’s information on the Sith.
The entire reason behind Aleema Keto’s rise to power with the dark side was because she stole an ancient Sith spell book from a Jedi museum. The placement of such Sith powerful artifacts, scrolls and information in the hands of Jedi is only logical for their era. They had vanquished the ancient Sith Order in a war, leaving behind virtual mountains of treasure. They excavated tons of knowledge on the dark side that Odan happened to be in care of on Ossus. He clearly had extensive, in-depth analysis and research on ancient Sith abilities and history. This is made apparent throughout TOTJ, where he tells tales of ancient Sith lore.
4.) "His insights don't speak volumes for knowledge" - Apparently they do, because he was the de facto grandmaster of the entire Jedi Order during his day at the pinnacle of Jedi wealth and knowledge.
The texts that he made on the Jedi Code and the Force are considered the most influential factor on the lives of modern Jedi. That is the wisdom that's often gained him the reputation among his colleagues as "one of the oldest and the wisest Jedi master in history" by Jedi like Master Ood Bnar, who was actually older than Odan-Urr. An unavoidable effect from centuries of studying and meditating upon materials that dated back to the pre-hyperdrive era - 25,000 BBY.
Being the “most knowledgeable Jedi in his time”, which was the height of archived knowledge, is the most obvious indication that’s he’s “one of the most knowledgeable ever”.
Let's face facts, he has studied and absorbed more information than possibly any Jedi that came before or after him and lived during the pinnacle of Jedi information. Trying to downplay him - only to have it smacked down by on-panel evidence, logic, and everything in-between - isn't in your best interests.
@ Wolverine: I have almost the entire TOTJ series saved on my computer, so there's no need for sites like swtimeline.ru.
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Last edited by Advent on Sep 8th, 2009 at 01:20 AM
Originally posted by Advent
You've used the (admittedly logical) reasoning that Revan was a scholar; therefore he studied virtually everything he got his hands on. The same principle applies here because Odan-Urr was a scholar, only in his case devoting more time than anyone in the entire mythology to knowledge of the Force given that he's had one thousand years to do such!
Explain how the same applies to Odan Urr. Revan searched for as many techniques as he could equip himself with while Odan Urr was busy reading the history of the sith. I would put him as historian more than a scholar.
Fact Check: "The library contained knowledge forbidden by the Jedi Order, such as Sith holocrons. Odan-Urr believed that all knowledge-even knowledge of evil- might prove valuable in defense of justice." (Power of the Jedi Sourcebook, Ch. 7, pg. 135).
Uh, Odan-Urr was the sole keeper of the Chamber of Antiquities where dark side artifacts were stored for 600 years. He's got more than "one holocron" in his possession and it isn't limited to just holocrons either. You’re talking out of your ass.
Or you're incapable of reading TOTJ, as Odan Urr states it's the only sith holocron as far as anyone knows. Try again.
"This is a very rare Sith holocron. In it we find the Sith’s own words, their teachings, and the histories of their dark lords…” – that alone eclipses the PT Jedi’s information on the Sith.
Your point? Once again, there's no evidence that Odan Urr was a scholar, rather than a historian. He's not the most powerful Jedi of his time, he's not the 2nd most powerful jedi of his time, nor the 3rd.
The entire reason behind Aleema Keto’s rise to power with the dark side was because she stole an ancient Sith spell book from a Jedi museum. The placement of such Sith powerful artifacts, scrolls and information in the hands of Jedi is only logical for their era. They had vanquished the ancient Sith Order in a war, leaving behind virtual mountains of treasure. They excavated tons of knowledge on the dark side that Odan happened to be in care of on Ossus. He clearly had extensive, in-depth analysis and research on ancient Sith abilities and history. This is made apparent throughout TOTJ, where he tells tales of ancient Sith lore.
Hilarious. So because Odan Urr excavated it or created a library, then he MUST have studied most of the things in there?
4.) "His insights don't speak volumes for knowledge" - Apparently they do, because he was the de facto grandmaster of the entire Jedi Order during his day at the pinnacle of Jedi wealth and knowledge.
He was also the oldest. What's your point? That's like saying "Vodo Baas is awesome because he's a battlemaster." Again, nothing suggesting Odan Urr studied all of that knowledge, as opposed to Revan who fell to the dark side because he hungered for knowledge.
Being the “most knowledgeable Jedi in his time”, which was the height of archived knowledge, is the most obvious indication that’s he’s “one of the most knowledgeable ever”.
Right. About insights into the force, about the Jedi code, not about actual techniques.
Let's face facts, he has studied and absorbed more information than possibly any Jedi that came before or after him and lived during the pinnacle of Jedi information. Trying to downplay him - only to have it smacked down by on-panel evidence, logic, and everything in-between - isn't in your best interests.
You haven't smacked anything down. As Gideon often says, you're reaching.
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Last edited by Dr McBeefington on Sep 8th, 2009 at 01:37 AM