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I'm curious about something....
Started by: KuRuPT Thanosi

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KuRuPT Thanosi
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: United States


 

I'm curious about something....

I see a lot people say that ROS Anakin was not in a good state of mind to fight Kenobi. Thus by that premise of people, they draw the conclusion that Kenobi couldn't have beat a Anakin in the right state of mind.. My issue is this... He knew he didn't kill his love.. He said very clearly he felt her alive when he released her. So it wasn't like he knew she was dead. Yes he had turned to the DS not that long before but he had already started down that path and I didn't see any narration that indicates he was debating about which side he wanted to be on. He committed himself to the darkside already. If he could kill Mace.. Kill young jedi's do you really think he was THAT torn about killing Kenobi? Even if I concede he was a little, certainly not enough to warrant this Anakin was mind f'd theory people keep talking about. He felt OB1 turned his love against him.. he had reason to get rid of him. He had NO issue getting rid of kids who did nothing to him. So please explain to me where i'm wrong here and how it's such a big mind f for Anakin that he could only fight in a horrible manner?

Lets look at the fight... General G is considered a very proficient duelist and has done VERY WELL against some acclaimed Jedi. He certainly has a higher per strike ratio than Anakin. Yet, OB1 methodically used his defense to find opening and cut arm after arm from The General. He beat him MUCH MUCH quicker than Anakin. Anakin he couldn't find such openings.. the fight went on HOW LONG? If he beat Anakin quickly.. sure we could say Anakin wasn't right.. However, that wasn't the case Anakin fought well and made Ob1 work very very hard. for the win. I saw no evidence that his skills were diminished in anyway.

To go further and build on my first paragraph. If anybody was more conflicted it was Kenobi more so than Anakin. Kenobi didn't have the rage blinding him like Anakin did. He would have more reservations about killing Anakin than Anakin would have about killing kenobi for all the reasons listed above. So if anything Kenobi was more conflicted. Yet I keep seeing this imo unsubstantiated myth that Anakin was a total wreck and that is the reason why Kenobi won. Kenobi won because he was better that day. He knew Anakin in a out. He used Anakin over confidence against him. He didn't BEAT him cause Anakin's mind was a mess. If you believe this is the reason why he beat Anakin please address the points made above. If not, lets disspell this notion that Kenobi only won because Anakin was a mess.

Old Post Sep 9th, 2010 04:03 PM
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truejedi
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: United States


 

Actually I have argued many many times, and won each time that Kenobi would always beat Anakin.

The ROTS novelization makes this clear. So the premise of your post up there is wrong. Or in other words, we agree, and I have already fought and won that battle on these here boards.

Old Post Sep 9th, 2010 10:31 PM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
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Registered: Aug 2008
Location: United States


 

Well not really TrueJedi... as I've seen many people still talk about how the only reason Kenobi won was because Anakin was a mental mess. I've seen this countless times. So, I'm not sure your victory is as decisive as you claim.

Old Post Sep 9th, 2010 10:46 PM
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Pwned
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Registered: May 2010
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There is the fact that
A)Kenobi trained Anakin, and knew him, almost literally, inside and out. He knew his style, his slight adjustments for his own body, his aplications of the force, etc. Kenoi knew exactly what Anakin was capable of, he knew that if he didnt kill him, he would die.

Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 12:13 AM
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Slash_KMC
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Registered: Oct 2008
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Anakin was more powerful. He would've become more powerful as he is the chosen one and all that crap. But Obi-Wan is the more intelligent of the two. I still think that Obi-Wan would lose in a closed room though.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 12:46 AM
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Lord Lucien
Lets all love Lain

Registered: Jul 2005
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As Lucas said: "Anakin is more powerful, but Obi-Wan is more experienced."

Vader just had his wife turn against him, and was now committing himself to killing what he thought was his best friend. That after massacring the Separatist leaders, Jedi children, Jedi in general, and turning his back on his entire life. That tear he shed following the Mustafar slaughter was supposed to give the audience the hint that the guy's an emotional basket-case, not someone reveling in the Dark Side and is calm and cool and in control of himself.

Obi-Wan's defensive style and familiarity would stop Anakin's Djem So any day of the week. It's Anakin brute strength, endless Force reserves, and his ability to get stronger as the fight wear on that would give him the win... after a very, very long battle. And by the, Kenobi would have figured out a way to outsmart him.

If it were the "Zone" Anakin that did in Dooku, then Kenobi's prospects take a terminal dip.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 02:55 AM
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truejedi
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Registered: Oct 2005
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien


If it were the "Zone" Anakin that did in Dooku, then Kenobi's prospects take a terminal dip.


What in the "Zone" anakin? The one that beat a Dooku who spent an entire duel preparing himself to lose with dignity?

Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 03:09 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by truejedi
What in the "Zone" anakin? The one that beat a Dooku who spent an entire duel preparing himself to lose with dignity?
No, the one who doesn't let emotions make him unstable. The one who's determined to win with losing not even being an option. Dooku's original intentions were to kill Kenobi and lose to Skywalker, and he toyed with time until he realized they were f*cking with him. He decided "it was time to kill" long before he was beaten. In efforts to keep from dieing, exhaustion overtook him. Someone's who in control and getting ready to lose doesn't get reduced to such a point. He even concedes that "these clowns" just might beat him. Dooku threw no fight, and he gave it all he could to the point of "exhaustion".

Anakin's whole "Oh I get it now" moment was lacking in his fight with Kenobi. "Dooku's decades of combat are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay useless." Oh how that does not describe the Mustafar duel... unless of course Kenobi>>>>Dooku.

Kenobi will always be smarter than Anakin, there's no getting around that. But the Vader who's gone through hell vs. the Anakin whose clarity of mind undid Dooku in seconds... one of them is a tad more able-minded than the other.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 03:43 AM
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truejedi
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Lord Lucien
No, the one who doesn't let emotions make him unstable. The one who's determined to win with losing not even being an option. Dooku's original intentions were to kill Kenobi and lose to Skywalker, and he toyed with time until he realized they were f*cking with him. He decided "it was time to kill" long before he was beaten. In efforts to keep from dieing, exhaustion overtook him. Someone's who in control and getting ready to lose doesn't get reduced to such a point. He even concedes that "these clowns" just might beat him. Dooku threw no fight, and he gave it all he could to the point of "exhaustion".

Anakin's whole "Oh I get it now" moment was lacking in his fight with Kenobi. "Dooku's decades of combat are irrelevant. His mastery of swordplay useless." Oh how that does not describe the Mustafar duel... unless of course Kenobi>>>>Dooku.

Kenobi will always be smarter than Anakin, there's no getting around that. But the Vader who's gone through hell vs. the Anakin whose clarity of mind undid Dooku in seconds... one of them is a tad more able-minded than the other.



what, no. Dooku fought a 2 on 1 duel on the invisible hand, no matter HOW you cut it. We have no idea how Dooku would do against Anakin in a one-on-one situation, but we do know enough to suggest it wouldn't be a repeat of the latter part of the Invisible Hand duel. Here is why in 2 concise points:

Fatigue was a MAJOR factor in his fight with Anakin, which was caused by his two opponents, and his decision to play-act his defeat from the beginning. A dooku who went straight for a kill against Anakin is not going to be AS tired in his fight. Tired maybe, I won't speculate, but he isn't going to be AS tired as he was when he fought anakin alone after his play acting. Finally, there is a quote that states Dooku had hit rock bottom in the fatigue department before Kenobi was even removed from the fight.


His decision to let Anakin win was a MAJOR factor in the fight, since anakin kept getting stronger. If dooku had been going for the kill from the beginning against only Anakin it would have been a much different fight. Dooku had no intention of winning the fight until Sidious interjects into the fight, at a very late point. Before this Dooku was even goading anakin to the dark side as the fight progressed, and making him stronger. Something he wouldn't do if he wasnt trying to turn him.

Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 04:24 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by truejedi
what, no. Dooku fought a 2 on 1 duel on the invisible hand, no matter HOW you cut it. We have no idea how Dooku would do against Anakin in a one-on-one situation, but we do know enough to suggest it wouldn't be a repeat of the latter part of the Invisible Hand duel. Here is why in 2 concise points:

Fatigue was a MAJOR factor in his fight with Anakin, which was caused by his two opponents, and his decision to play-act his defeat from the beginning. A dooku who went straight for a kill against Anakin is not going to be AS tired in his fight. Tired maybe, I won't speculate, but he isn't going to be AS tired as he was when he fought anakin alone after his play acting. Finally, there is a quote that states Dooku had hit rock bottom in the fatigue department before Kenobi was even removed from the fight.


His decision to let Anakin win was a MAJOR factor in the fight, since anakin kept getting stronger. If dooku had been going for the kill from the beginning against only Anakin it would have been a much different fight. Dooku had no intention of winning the fight until Sidious interjects into the fight, at a very late point. Before this Dooku was even goading anakin to the dark side as the fight progressed, and making him stronger. Something he wouldn't do if he wasnt trying to turn him.
Yes, I know all that. What I'm trying to stress to you is that personal mentality and emotional stability plays a big factor in Anakin's ability to fight. The guy's a yo-yo. He goes from Jedi average, to pissed off advantage, to restrained disadvantage, to Zone domination. I'll remind you that Anakin was also fighting that day, not just Dooku. Starfighter battle, journey through the ship, and then a fight with Dooku--of which he bounces up and down like a ball. The guy literally went through all those stages within several minutes: 2-on-1 advantage, 1-on-1 advantage, 1-on-1 disadvantage, 1-on-1 "nuclear" Zone ownage.

The man's emotionally fragile no matter where he goes or what he does. In those final blows against Dooku, he was clear as crystal but making full use of his fury. Vader was not, was absolutely not clear. Someone of Kenobi's experience and intellect easily took advantage. But couple Anakin's single-minded "Zone" determination to win and the power of the Dark Side AND his Juggernaut-esque momentum... and Kenobi's gonna lose any protracted battle on a level playing field.

"Anakin's mind is as clear as a crystal bell. In that pristine clarity, there is only one thing he must do. Decide. So he does. He decides to win.|

I'd contrast that with the pre-battle confrontation between Anakin, Kenobi and Padme, but it's too long.


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Last edited by Lord Lucien on Sep 10th, 2010 at 05:11 AM

Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 05:05 AM
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KuRuPT Thanosi
Senior Member

Registered: Aug 2008
Location: United States


 

Lord Lucien... you would agree that GG is a very good swordsman correct? He has a strike ratio that even Anankin can't match. He's fared very well against better swordsman than Anakin.. In Mace to name one. Yet Kenobi was able to methodically take off arm after arm and defeat him in a much much quicker manner than he did Anakin. So, if GG is that skilled and Kenobi found openings throughout that battle but NEVER could against Anakin throughout there much longer battle.. how do you come to the conclusion that Anakin was messed up and not fighting very well? How do you bridge that gap comparing those battle. Anakin was fighting very well and wasn't weakening in the least. All the things that you felt made him strong... power reserves, strength etc etc.. those were diminished IN ANY WAY with his fight with Kenobi. Please address these points when looking at Kenobi against GG and Kenobi against Anakin

Furthermore, since you keep on saying Anakin mind was clear... please post for me the narration that says his mind was all over the place and this was effecting his skills. Please post the narration that talks about him not wanting to kill Kenobi. Problem is, these lines don't exist, as thus it's merely conjecture on people's part to give a reason why Anakin lost. There is no reason needed... Kenobi just knows how to beat any Anakin we've seen.

Again you bring up the Padme issue.. Going by narration.. HE KNEW she was alive when he let her go.. this had no effect on him. The ONLY effect it did have on him was making him wanting to kill Kenobi more, for feeling like he turned her against him. That fueled his rage and made him want to kill him, not hold back against Kenobi. You brinb up the acts he did and are then trying to claim it effected him ni his fight with Kenobi. He had already given himself over to the darkside.. his rage was in full effect... the doubts and hesitiation weren't there that you claim or please post the evidence. He just killed Mace..(no going back after that).. then goes on to kill innocent KIDS and more Jedi... (certainly no going back after that). Yet you feel like he was being pulled and had doubt and his mind was a mess and that is why he lost.. nah. By the time he fought Kenobi he had already choosen his path and had rage fueling him to kill kenobi.. not doubts. IF ANYBODY was MORE messed up and doubting things.. it was Kenobi not Anakin. So I could very easily say.. a messed up mind Kenobi still punked a raging Anakin who still had his rage, force reserves, incredible strength etc etc. A more conflicted Kenobi beat a less conflicted Anakin is how the fight should be viewed. I see NO evidence that the Anakin that fought Dooku would beat Kenobi.. The view that Anakin was messed up and thats why he lost is poop and nothing more.

Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 03:42 PM
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Lord Lucien
Lets all love Lain

Registered: Jul 2005
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I like to respond as I read posts, so I would kindly ask you to structure yours a little more... methodically. As it is, this one's gonna be headache, I can tell.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Lord Lucien... you would agree that GG is a very good swordsman correct? He has a strike ratio that even Anankin can't match. He's fared very well against better swordsman than Anakin.. In Mace to name one. Yet Kenobi was able to methodically take off arm after arm and defeat him in a much much quicker manner than he did Anakin. So, if GG is that skilled and Kenobi found openings throughout that battle but NEVER could against Anakin throughout there much longer battle.. how do you come to the conclusion that Anakin was messed up and not fighting very well? How do you bridge that gap comparing those battle. Anakin was fighting very well and wasn't weakening in the least.
You'll remember several things here: A.) Grievous had no connection to the Force and no precognitive abilities. He made up for this with cyborg reflexes and maneuverability. But even those weren't enough to breach the master of defensive combat. B.) I never once used the wording or phrase "Anakin" followed by "not fighting very well." Don't put words in my mouth. C.) The gap is bridged by an hour of screenplay? I dunno. messed

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
All the things that you felt made him strong... power reserves, strength etc etc.. those were diminished IN ANY WAY with his fight with Kenobi. Please address these points when looking at Kenobi against GG and Kenobi against Anakin
For starters, I can't address a point about Anakin's strengths and powers during the Utapau duel. If you'll recall, Anakin wasn't there.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Furthermore, since you keep on saying Anakin mind was clear... please post for me the narration that says his mind was all over the place and this was effecting his skills. Please post the narration that talks about him not wanting to kill Kenobi. Problem is, these lines don't exist, as thus it's merely conjecture on people's part to give a reason why Anakin lost. There is no reason needed... Kenobi just knows how to beat any Anakin we've seen.
Next round: A.) There is no narration concerning Anakin's mentality. What's lacking from Stover's usually descriptive take on central character's mentality is Anakin's. It's all about Obi-Wan in the Mustafar duel. What IS present though is the film. Now I foresee we (you, I and TJ) getting in to a scuffle about the merits of visual facial features, George Lucas' writing abilities, and Hayden Christensen's acting, but... and I stress the next point... I challenge you to watch that scene again and see in Anakin's face and hear in Anakin's voice, the presence of control, clarity, and calm. Re-watch/re-read RotS again, paying attention to what Anakin has just done/experienced in the last couple days and tell me with a straight face screen, that Vader is, as the novel describes him on the Invisible Hand, "clear as a crystal bell" and possessing of "pristine clarity".

*sigh*

B.) Please post for me my own words of him "not wanting to kill Kenobi".

quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
Again you bring up the Padme issue.. Going by narration.. HE KNEW she was alive when he let her go.. this had no effect on him. The ONLY effect it did have on him was making him wanting to kill Kenobi more, for feeling like he turned her against him. That fueled his rage and made him want to kill him, not hold back against Kenobi.
Anakin "thought about (Padme) every day" for 10 years. He openly professed his love and desire for her. He was willing to turn his back on his entire life AND aid in the slaughter of said life (children not excluded)... all for her. And she betrays him. Thus (substitute the caps for italics, I couldn't be bothered):

"He wasn't listening to her. He wasn't looking at her. He was looking past her shoulder. Feral joy burned from his eyes, and his face was no longer human...
'YOU,' growled a voice that should have been her love's. 'You BROUGHT him here...'
She turned back, and now he WAS looking at her.
His eyes were full of flame...
'Anakin?'
'Padme, move AWAY.' There was an urgency in Obi-Wan's voice that sounded closer to fear than Padme had ever heard from him. 'He's not who you think he is. He WILL harm you.'
Anakin's lips peeled off his teeth. 'I would thank for this, if it were a gift of love.'
Trembling, shaking her head, she began to back away. 'No, Anakin--no...'
'Palpatine was right. Sometimes it is the closest who cannot see. I loved you too much, Padme.'
He made a fist, and she couldn't breathe.
'I loved you too much to SEE you! To see what you ARE!'
A veil of red descended on the world. She clawed at her throat, but there was nothing her hands could touch.
'Let her go, Anakin.'
His answer was a predator's snarl, over the body of its prey. 'You will not take her from me!'"


...

"In the Force, Anakin burned like a fusion torch. "You turned her against me.'...
'Let me take Padme to a medcenter. She's hurt, Anakin. She needs medical attention.'
'She stays.'
'Anakin--'
'YOU don't get to take her ANYWHERE. You don't get to TOUCH her. She's MINE, do you understand? It's YOUR fault, ALL of it--you made her BETRAY ME!'"




Oh, f*ck that took too long.

The man was obsessed with Padme. Her betrayal at his best friend's hands isn't something you go "Oh, well, too bad" to. He f*cking flipped! And that's after his own great betrayal of Mace and the entire Order. That tear you saw, during RotS, that wasn't a tear of joy at his new found power.


quote: (post)
Originally posted by KuRuPT Thanosi
You brinb up the acts he did and are then trying to claim it effected him ni his fight with Kenobi. He had already given himself over to the darkside.. his rage was in full effect... the doubts and hesitiation weren't there that you claim or please post the evidence. He just killed Mace..(no going back after that).. then goes on to kill innocent KIDS and more Jedi... (certainly no going back after that). Yet you feel like he was being pulled and had doubt and his mind was a mess and that is why he lost.. nah. By the time he fought Kenobi he had already choosen his path and had rage fueling him to kill kenobi.. not doubts. IF ANYBODY was MORE messed up and doubting things.. it was Kenobi not Anakin. So I could very easily say.. a messed up mind Kenobi still punked a raging Anakin who still had his rage, force reserves, incredible strength etc etc. A more conflicted Kenobi beat a less conflicted Anakin is how the fight should be viewed. I see NO evidence that the Anakin that fought Dooku would beat Kenobi.. The view that Anakin was messed up and thats why he lost is poop and nothing more.
Again, stop claiming words I never spoke, chiefly this time, "doubts" and "hesitation". You don't butcher children, your friends, your allies, and your life because your squeamish at the thought of doing so.

As for your theory of Kenobi being more messed up:

"With Anakin's grip on his wrists bending his arms near to breaking, forcing both their lightsabers down in a slow but unstoppable arc, Obi-Wan let go.
Of everything.
His hopes. His fears, His obligation to the Jedi, his promise to Qui-Gon, his failure with Anakin.
And their lightsabers.
"

...

"Mustafar hummed with death behind his back, only a moment away, somewhere out there among the rivers of molten rock. Obi-Wan let Anakin drive him toward it.
It was a place, he decided, they should reach together.
"

...

"The mane he faced was everything Obi-Wan had devoted his life to destroying: Murderer. Traitor. Fallen Jedi. Lord of the Sith. And here, and now, despite it all...
Obi-Wan still loved him.
Yoda said it flat out:
Allow such attachments to pass out of one's life, a Jedi must, but Obi-Wan had never let himself understand. He had argued for Anakin, made excuses, covered for him again and again; all the while this attachment he denied even feeling had blinded him to the dark path his best friend walked.
Obi-Wan knew there was, in the end, only one answer for attachment...
He let it go.
"



Yeah, the guy was messed up alright.


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Old Post Sep 10th, 2010 11:54 PM
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truejedi
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I disagree with the opinion that a "in the zone" anakin could defeat Dooku in a one-on-one to the death from the beginning duel.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 03:37 AM
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KMCmember
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In that duel when Anakin was on the ground Obi Wan used the Force to ge his lighsaber an try and finish Anakin/Vader off.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 03:40 AM
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truejedi
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by KMCmember
In that duel when Anakin was on the ground Obi Wan used the Force to ge his lighsaber an try and finish Anakin/Vader off.


According to the novelization he wasn't yet going for the kill. For all we know he was going to stop with his saber by Vader's throat, just as Mace stopped his blade against Sidious.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 03:53 AM
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Lord Lucien
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by truejedi
I disagree with the opinion that a "in the zone" anakin could defeat Dooku in a one-on-one to the death from the beginning duel.
We're gonna have to settle at that then. I think he could.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 09:24 AM
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Tzeentch
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I think he could as well. The fact that dude cut his freakin' head off makes me feel strongly affirmed in my belief.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 09:25 AM
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Lord Lucien
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It's the speed at which he defeated him. I understand that Dooku went in there knowing he would lose (doubt he foresaw the amputation, though). He went from a point of holding the advantage over Anakin to being on his knees without hands in literal seconds. I don't see even a fully committed Dooku from the get-go surviving that blitz, nevermind one's who more than warmed up for it.


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Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 09:28 AM
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truejedi
Senior Member

Registered: Oct 2005
Location: United States


 

haha, you say "warmed up." but the novel says"exhausted" But I understand what you are saying. The "decided" to win speech is a pretty good argument for you.

and blax, you are being facetious, however anakin won a 2 on 1 duel with a Dooku who spent MOST of that duel not planning on winning. So to say its as simple as anakin won, so he WOULD win a one-on-one duel is not a complex enough argument.

Old Post Sep 11th, 2010 01:29 PM
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Mshinu
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IIRC Lucas called both Obiwan and Anakin "level nine" in ROTS, but Anakin was "level ten" at the end with the dark side. Obiwan was giving ground most of the fight, but matched Anakin a few times when they locked up. Anakin ultimately lost because he attempted that stupid leap "the height og hubris".

I`d give Obiwan the win before Anakin comitted himself to the dark side. After that I still see Obi eventually winning more often than not unless it was a fight in a closed room. Give Anakin a few months to come to terms with his feelings and the dark side, then I think he would pull a majority perhaps a clear one.


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Old Post Sep 13th, 2010 01:31 PM
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