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Barring entities, how many Sidious tier combatants were there in the course of the past 25,000 recorded years? One [Valkorion]? And no Jedi was even remotely on his level - or really, on the level of any of the ancient sith when they were alive.

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And yet in about a century, there are at least four on Sidious's tier, and over a dozen who match him in potential - the numbers speak for themselves. The modern Jedi and Sith must be stronger from power scaling.

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*snip* And I get the same sort of vibe from the ancient wankers. It sounds random and I'm sure it isn't literally true for many of said ancient wankers, but I the vibe's still there, for me, at least.

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Originally posted by JKBart
Actually well writen and coherent, interesting read

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Originally posted by The Ellimist
Though in my "real" views on [Legends] Star Wars tiers I put the ancients generally below modern characters, I try to be reasonable and objective about it - I've flirted with the idea of placing Exar Kun above Vader from his spirit feats, and do consider some of their more impressive feats and accolades, such as Darth Jadus holding together part of a dreadnaught.

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Originally posted by The Ellimist
The moderns being more powerful overall seems to be accurate, both thematically and from the direct evidence present. Directly, we know that Sidious is canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Yoda the most powerful Jedi Master - with Anakin potentially the most powerful Jedi [knight]. Barring entities, how many Sidious tier combatants were there in the course of the past 25,000 recorded years? One [Valkorion]? And no Jedi was even remotely on his level - or really, on the level of any of the ancient sith when they were alive. And yet in about a century, there are at least four on Sidious's tier, and over a dozen who match him in potential - the numbers speak for themselves. The modern Jedi and Sith must be stronger from powerscaling.

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Originally posted by The Ellimist
Thematically, I do think the whole idea of the prophecy of the Chosen One would make more sense if the Force conceived a being to face a particularly monstrous threat - .ie, Palpatine [and Plagueis earlier]. The concurrently running idea of the Prequel Trilogy in general is the decay and decline of the Republic and the Jedi - and one might think that a Lord of the Rings style power regression would fit in with this. I would argue the contrary. The point of the Prequels isn't that the Jedi fell because they were weak - they fell because they were blind, arrogant, and resistant to change. It would make it an even greater tragedy if the Jedi, who are themselves tragic heroes, were tall and mighty, and lost due to hubris, rather than just because they weren't as good at lifting things as they were before. It is, after all, a sort of exaggerated parallel to Rome / maybe western imperialism, and those civilizations in question had their flaws, but those flaws were amplified by their military might, not the reverse. And finally, you do want the primary two trilogies of the saga to represent some sort of climax, not a steady decay.

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Revenge of the Sith novelisation

The Sith had changed. The Sith had grown, had adapted, had invested a thousand years' intensive study into every aspect of not only the Force but Jedi lore itself, in preparation for exactly this day. The Sith had remade themselves.

They had become new.

While the Jedi --

The Jedi had spent that same millennium training to refight the last war.

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If you're going to argue that a modern era character is more powerful though, it should be backed by evidence and not thematic bullshit because we aren't the Forcecast.

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okay

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Originally posted by The Ellimist
Though in my "real" views on [Legends] Star Wars tiers I put the ancients generally below modern characters, I try to be reasonable and objective about it - I've flirted with the idea of placing Exar Kun above Vader from his spirit feats, and do consider some of their more impressive feats and accolades, such as Darth Jadus holding together part of a dreadnaught.

The moderns being more powerful overall seems to be accurate, both thematically and from the direct evidence present. Directly, we know that Sidious is canonically the most powerful sith lord of all time, and Yoda the most powerful Jedi Master - with Anakin potentially the most powerful Jedi [knight]. Barring entities, how many Sidious tier combatants were there in the course of the past 25,000 recorded years? One [Valkorion]? And no Jedi was even remotely on his level - or really, on the level of any of the ancient sith when they were alive. And yet in about a century, there are at least four on Sidious's tier, and over a dozen who match him in potential - the numbers speak for themselves. The modern Jedi and Sith must be stronger from powerscaling.

Thematically, I do think the whole idea of the prophecy of the Chosen One would make more sense if the Force conceived a being to face a particularly monstrous threat - .ie, Palpatine [and Plagueis earlier]. The concurrently running idea of the Prequel Trilogy in general is the decay and decline of the Republic and the Jedi - and one might think that a Lord of the Rings style power regression would fit in with this. I would argue the contrary. The point of the Prequels isn't that the Jedi fell because they were weak - they fell because they were blind, arrogant, and resistant to change. It would make it an even greater tragedy if the Jedi, who are themselves tragic heroes, were tall and mighty, and lost due to hubris, rather than just because they weren't as good at lifting things as they were before. It is, after all, a sort of exaggerated parallel to Rome / maybe western imperialism, and those civilizations in question had their flaws, but those flaws were amplified by their military might, not the reverse. And finally, you do want the primary two trilogies of the saga to represent some sort of climax, not a steady decay.

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There are two personal reasons though.

Firstly, people as well as myself may be backlashing against the ludicrous ancient sith wank that once roamed the internet. People were declaring that Ragnos could beat Yoda and Sidious at once based on...based on...what, exactly? Literally the fact that they were ancient sith! Kas'im was once considered Dooku's superior as a swordsman, etc. This type of ludicrous worship of ancient characters with no feats or accolades to their name definitely invited some sort of backlash, and here it is. Here is people assuming that Darth Bane was almost as powerful as Palpatine, despite that literally being the opposite of the very basis of the rule of two.

Secondly, and somewhat more loosely, I don't like the "good old days" mentality. I don't like it politically, I look down on people who obsess about the superior morality of older generations or how things were better back then in everything - not just for the frequently veiled bigotry but also for the stupidity because, well, it just statistically isn't true. Things in real life have gotten drastically better in almost every category over time, and this is a claim that can be backed with empirical observation and basic assertions - rates of crime and war are at an all-time low, as are child poverty rates, democracy has spread further than it ever has, we have made incalculable strides in spreading human rights and equity, etc. And yet people still get the impression that the Jim-Crow era 1930s were "morally superior" and "the greatest generation", lol. Even common ideas like Millenials being "lazy" are clearly disabused by the evidence - the latest generation is more likely to work a job in college than their parents were. And I get the same sort of vibe from the ancient wankers. It sounds random and I'm sure it isn't literally true for many of said ancient wankers, but I the vibe's still there, for me, at least.

It's a space age civilization. Sure, I could see some ancient sith taking their secrets to the grave, or collections getting lost or destroyed over time, but as long as they can store data digitally, information would increase over time. Forms would be refined, new techniques would be invented, and that would be the net progress of society - and we see this for ourselves already in SW technology, and in innovations such as Windu's creating vaapad.

That's why the modern characters should be [and are] generally more powerful.

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Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I think modern characters being less powerful works much better from a narrative standpoint as doesn't leave one constantly scratching their heads as to why such power is never exerted in the OT or PT films. Instead, we can always fall back on the notion that much knowledge had been lost since the time of the ancients.

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Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I think modern characters being less powerful works much better from a narrative standpoint as doesn't leave one constantly scratching their heads as to why such power is never exerted in the OT or PT films. Instead, we can always fall back on the notion that much knowledge had been lost since the time of the ancients.

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Originally posted by Dark-Kenshin
I think modern characters being less powerful works much better from a narrative standpoint as doesn't leave one constantly scratching their heads as to why such power is never exerted in the OT or PT films. Instead, we can always fall back on the notion that much knowledge had been lost since the time of the ancients.

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For a thousand generations, the Jedi worked hard to ensure that peace flourished throughout the galaxy. During that time, a number of repositories of Jedi knowledge developed, whose scope and sheer magnitude have become legendary. Of these, the library on the planet Ossus is perhaps the most infamous. Tragically, it was obliterated when the stars of the nearby Cron cluster were exploded by the weapon of the ancient Sith High Priest, Naga Sadow. What vast knowledge and wisdom was lost in the ensuing conflagration is now a matter for myths and stories to imagine In more recent times, the Archives at the Jedi Temple on Coruscant were similarly vast..