Not much in terms of quantity, but the quality of his showings is pretty good.
-> Was beating grevious, someone we've seen decisively outduel tcw Kenobi repeatedly, before magna guards got involved
-> Holds his own against the force god known as canon vader
-> Was picked to fight sidious in yoda, kenobi, and anakin's absence
Only people who are clearly superior to him would be those who can compete with sidious like mace or people in the general range of post rots vader(like ahsoka), but given how canon estabilshes sidious's blitz of him was largely caused by "dark confusion", and with sidious being able to stomp just about evryone, it's hardly a damning indictment.
Koth might be a low tier 8 (Gillard system) as of his fight with Vader. It was noted that he was more powerful than in his days as a jedi because he "allowed himself to feel". This probably means he used the dark side to some extent.
The fight with Vader was in 14 BBY acording to Wookieepedia. So Vader at this point should be well before his prime. Not sure if he surpassed Anakin at this point.
Koth was definitely using the dark side. Vader noted that he was tapping into his anger, fear, and resentment, which gave him more power than he ever had as a Jedi.
He probably had, given Palpatine's wank in the Tarkin novelization(which is also set in 14BBY):
Still pre-prime, though.
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
man, vader's placement in canon really bothers me. On the one hand, we have several sources, from interviews to additional material and so on, that put him above RotS Anakin, hell, maybe around Yoda himself. But his feats on screen (or on pages) really do not show him on that level. Did we ever see Vader stomping Jedi in canon? Like he sometimes did in Legends?
1) He was inferior to Infila and had to defeat him with a trick (but that was early Vader so he is justified)
2) Barr, a mere padawan, was able to hold his own against him. While anyone around Dooku level and above would oneshot easily padawan level jedi.
3) Didn't manage to capture Kanan and Ezra (but here you can play that so much abused "hey, he was just playing" excuse card)
4) Was matched in the force by Cere Yunda
5) Eeth was using the DS, but he also had left the order so many years before, who knows for how long he hadn't trained
Guys on RotS Sid and Yoda level could oneshot jedi councilors, even Dooku could dominate someone like Ventress while being blinded, but then you have eeth koth who almost hits Vader's helmet and gives him a very good fight. SW is very very generous with they hype they give, because judging by his feats no one would ever think Vader is that strong. Especially before RotJ. Tbh right now I don't know whether to believe more in facts (his feats) or in words (the hype)
1. It was only a few days after Mustafar and Kirak has some very nice hype.
2. It was 18 BBY so vastly pre prime Vader. The fact he was a padawan is not that important. Keep in mind that Padawan Ahsoka can give Maul a good fight. And Barr was the same age as Anakin, he wasn't some teenager. Not to mention that the fight was not even that close and the way it was portrayed on the page we have no ideea how long it was.
3. He didn't want to capture Kanan and Ezra. He wanted them to escape so he can track their rebel base. This is confirmed on Starwars.com and fairly clear from Vader's dialogue in that episode. Not to mention that is obvious he was just screwing around. A serious Vader could give them the same tratment he gave to the 2 inquisitors lovers in the comic.
4. Just no. He oneshooted Cere with a flick of his wrist the first time. Cere only managed to affect Vader with TK when she used the dark side heavily and Vader was once again not completly serious as made clear by his dialogue (he encouraged Cere to use the DS because he wanted to make her an inquisitor). And Cere was still going to die and was saved only by Cal. This is also 14 BBY Vader.
5. Koth was noted to be more powerful than he was as a jedi so his suposed lack of practice (we don't even know for sure if he was out of practice) didn't affect him at all and is irrelevant here. This is also 14 BBY Vader.
Using vastly pre prime feats and circumstancial fights to lowball Vader is like using TCW Vos getting his ass kicked by Cad Bane to lowball DD Vos.
Last edited by Darthadi on May 28th, 2020 at 02:39 PM
I mean, things did kinda shift for Vader power wise in the early 2000s(characterization was still nice though). A bit, he did have some pretty good showings before that from what I remember, but around that time is when it was more pronounced.
Regardless this is going off topic.
__________________ "Commence primary ignition."
Last edited by Zenwolf on May 28th, 2020 at 02:50 PM
As for Vader's fight with Kirak: aside from the fact that it literally took place a few days after RotS(which means Vader wasn't even accustomed to his armor, or nearly as connected to the dark side as he would become), there are also a few other factors to consider:
1.) Vader's armor was already damaged/compromised by Kirak's planetary 'booby traps' by the time they even fought.
2.) Vader didn't even have a proper lightsaber
3.) Kirak was heavily implied to be a top-tier Jedi, in the same realm as the few other Jedi who were capable of giving Vader a good fight back then(which would have only been Kenobi, Yoda, or maybe Vos):
...Which is further corroborated by the solicit for issue #3, wherein Kirak was stated to be more powerful than ANY Jedi Vader had faced before(which would at least scale him above RotS Kenobi if taken at face value.)
Either way, the clear intent was for Kirak to be very powerful. So him being able to do well against a massively pre-prime Vader is hardly a bad showing for Vader, imo.
As for Barr and Koth: Vader still stomped them decisively(years before his prime), so I'm not sure why those fights keep getting mentioned..?
__________________
"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."
1. Well yeah, but he's kept a shadow of peak anakin and his potential to eclipse sidious is destroyed, so his power level still accents into his character's "what could have been" motivated nihlism. The characterization still came first.
I mean regardless of whatever Canoncity, Vader isn't going to eclipse Sidious so that doesn't really matter about his potential cause he never reaches it anyway. He's still stuck there given the movies make it a point of him needing/wanting Luke to join him in helping him take out the Emperor. In all honesty, I'm not sure of this whole potential thing being brought up, cause isn't actual/realized power far more important? Potential isn't going to give anything.
The whole shadow of his former self, that quote is kinda outdated seeing as the quote says that neither he nor Obi-Wan fought any other lightsaber user until they met...which we know is completely false given later material. I'm not sure why it's brought up time and again.
In all honesty, I'm not sure why we aren't dismissing outdated quotes across the board for every character and instead go for the more recent ones(within reason), so long as there isn't any contradictions in later material. It would make things seem a lot smoother and less confusing.
I mean would it really make sense to go with some data from the 70s or 80s and try to apply it to 90s or later which can have contradictions?
It's like with the old Marvel/DC Handbooks on a characters power/abilities, yeah for the time that might have been correct, but characters/abilities do change.
__________________ "Commence primary ignition."
Last edited by Zenwolf on May 28th, 2020 at 05:35 PM
You're applying audience knowledge to vader. --Vader-- doesn't know he won't ever reach palpatine in new canon. As far as he's aware, he can, and will if he plays his cards right.
It strips a level of context from vader's characterization.
Outdated based on what? There was nothing to contradict him being a "shadow" of yoda/sidious level anakin skywalker before disney came in. Anakin was always>>Vader before, Anakin could challenge and believed he would kill palpatine in short order. Vader lost all that and was resigned to life as palp's puppet. Absolutely nothing changed there until disney came in and threw it away.
Isn't that what we're doing?
That's a red herring. I'm talking about how the changes weaken/strengthen vader's characterization, not that powers can change :/
Last edited by Rockydonovang on May 28th, 2020 at 06:24 PM
Well if you didn't strip my post, you would know it's outdated on the basis of lightsaber combat. I'm not talking about power or potential, the quote seems to revolve around lightsaber ability, which we know changed later on given later material.
I dunno, seems a lot like to go back to quotes made long ago IE: That Fightsaber quote from 02, GL quotes from the 70s/80s(despite that he does change his mind) and others.
May 27th, 2020 02:40 PM
