She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn’t hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
- does not seem to be "time-sensitive."
THAT is more of an attribution to Revan (post-KoTOR II).
And Revan (post-KoTOR II) is on another level in comparison to Revan (MW); I will establish this fact below.
And since the aforementioned quote allude to the 'command of the Force' part, it has MERIT to it. Revan had much raw power in him and could be the most competent, talented and learned Force-user of all who had interacted with Meetra Surik up to a certain point in time that is when she met Lord Scourge; emphasis on the ACTUALIZED power in comparison to that of others in this case.
ACTUALIZED power = demonstrated or implied proficiency in the aspects of SENSE, CONTROL and ALTER respectively, and potential combinations thereof.
--- --- ---
2. RAW POWER and COMMAND OF THE FORCE (what is the point of it all?)
=> RAW POWER allude to an accomplishment without CONTROL in the mix.
However, a complex (or demanding) activity might require a certain degree of CONTROL to be incorporated into the deed in order to pull it off.
Consider following example:-
A dozen bolts of lightning sprang from Nyriss's hand, arcing across the room to incinerate her enemies. Instead of leaping back into the cell to avoid the deadly attack, Revan stepped forward to intercept it.
Both hands were held in front of him, his arms fully extended at shoulder height, his thumbs touching and his fingers splayed wide. He drew the bolts of lightning into his waiting grasp, channeling them away from their intended targets and absorbing their power.
"I am Revan reborn," he said to Nyriss. "And before me you are nothing."
Nyriss's eyes went wide as Revan unleashed the power of her own attack against her. She tried to throw up another Force shield, but the bolts ripped it apart and continued on unabated. The lightning engulfed her, the intense heat consuming her instantly, leaving only a pile of charred ash.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
- Revan intercepted those bolts, made sure that they would not touch Meetra Surik and Lord Scourge (drew them towards himself in full capacity), and continued to absorb their power in the process.
- Revan then deflected those bolts back toward their source (i.e. Darth Nyriss).
Revan showcase a remarkable mix of CONTROL and ALTER aspects in this case.
---
ANALOGY
---
Jedi Master Yoda is particularly noted for demonstrating similar level of CONTROL and ALTER:
Yoda is an immensely powerful Jedi who can control blue crackling Force lightning.
Taken from Star Wars: Mysteries of the Jedi
+
Dooku gave a little growl and thrust forth his hand, loosing a line of blue lightning at the diminutive Master.
Yoda caught it in his own hand and turned it aside, but far from easily.
"Powerful you have become, Dooku," Yoda admitted, and the Count grinned-but Yoda promptly took that grin away by adding, "The dark side I sense in you."
"I have become more powerful than any Jedi," Dooku countered.
"Even you, my old Master!"
More lightning poured forth from Dooku's hand, but Yoda continued to catch it and turn it, and seemed to become even more settled in his defensive posture.
"Much to learn you still have," Yoda remarked.
Dooku disengaged the futile lightning assault. "It is obvious this contest will not be decided by our knowledge of the Force, but by our skills with a lightsaber."
Taken from Star Wars: Attack of the Clones
Following revelation is important in relation:
Called "Sith lightning," these charges cause excruciating pain and weaken life, and it is a challenge for even the most powerful Jedi Masters to deflect such bursts.
Taken from Star Wars: The Ultimate Visual Guide
Yoda is immensely powerful and this is apparent from the fact that he is able to handle Force lightning with bare hands (he is certainly among the most powerful Jedi Masters).
And Revan (Reborn) have ACTUALIZED POWER on THAT level as well; his showings are self-explanatory in retrospect.
However, below is another interpretation of the same accomplishment:
Revan's raw power in the Force bends Nyriss' Sith lightning back at her, utterly destroying the Sith Lord.
Taken from Star Wars: The Essential Reader's Companion
---
The bottom line is that the line between 'raw power' and 'command of the Force' is a BLURRY one, particularly in relation to the perceived capability of the Force-user(s).
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 06:46 PM
"The Force flows through you like no student we have ever seen." - Jedi Master Vrook Lamar
The early life of the rebellious Revan is shrouded in mystery. What is known is that his power blooms during the Restoration under Jedi Master Kreia, whose controversial tutelage significantly impacts Revan's thinking. Revan eventually passes from Padawan to Jedi Knight, but he seeks out other masters to round out his education, including the Twi'lek Zhar Lestin, under whom Revan apprentices alongside another Jedi: his future Sith cohort Malak.
Had Revan be born a generation sooner, he might have been touted as the Jedi standard, but in light of war started by Exar Kun, Revan's boldness in writing wrongs meets with suspicion from a progressively conservative Jedi Council. These distinct Jedi ideologies collide when the Mandalorians invade the Republic.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
+
The earliest facts recount Revan's promising affinity for the Force and his rise to become a Jedi. With his close friend Alek, Revan devoured knowledge with insatiable appetite under many Jedi Masters. Though Revan and Malak both earned the title of Jedi Knight, Revan's determination and pride sparked concern among the Jedi Council.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia
+
Charismatic, powerful, and a respected Jedi, Revan would soon rally the Republic against a new enemy. Mandalorian Crusaders had begun conquering fringe worlds, but the Republic's response was halfhearted at best. Revan defied the Jedi Council's policy of restraint and argued a swift Republic intervention. Revan recruited Jedi and soldiers alike to his cause. Some called Revan a hero, others a brash crusader - but all soon referred to him as the Revanchist.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia
---
Darth Vader+ at the conclusion of the Mandalorian Wars?
---
By the time, Revan consider challenging and defeat Mandalore the Ultimate in single combat, he had become the most powerful Jedi in the galaxy:
Though the Mandalorian fought valiantly, in the end he was no match for the Jedi Order's most powerful champion.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
To give you some idea, one of the Jedi Masters of the time was Lucien Draay who is noted to be strong enough to challenge the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader in single combat:
Rounding out his anti-Sith Lord credentials, Draay has Lightsaber Duelist, giving him that much extra longevity against lightsaber-wielding maniacs: Only Count Dooku (Clone Strike) and Darth Revan (The Force Unleashed) manage a higher Defense against these foes. While he certainly won't outfight Lord Vader or Darth Bane, Draay is capable of putting up a good fight.
Taken from KOTOR Miniatures Preview - Master Lucien Draay
Although Lucien was that good, he is NOT counted among the strongest of his era regardless; some of his peers were relatively stronger.
Therefore, Revan (MW endgame) could be more than a match for the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader at this point.
---
EXPLORING DARK ARTS - Further growth in power
---
Revan was now becoming well-versed in dark arts:
After a string of ruthless triumphs, Revan finally defeated the Mandalore to win the war. But the cost of success had already set Revan on the path to the dark side.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
+
Finally, the Mandalorians had been routed. The Jedi generals Revan and Malak had killed Mandalore and hounded the remnants of the enemy fleet far beyond the boundaries of Republic space–and in so doing, performed terrible deeds and learned dark powers.
But there were darker days to come. During Revan's pursuit of the Mandalorians, he and Malak discovered the ancient Sith Empire hidden on Dromund Kaas. Realizing this Empire was the true threat to the Republic, Revan and Malak faced the Sith Emperor himself, intending to cut off the serpent's head–but the Emperor was too powerful. Overwhelmed by the Emperor's dark presence, they pledged themselves to his service.
Taken from The Galactic History 74: Revan and Malak Fall codex entry
Only the Sith Emperor proved more powerful:
The Sith Emperor is the most powerful Force-user who has ever existed. Unless this implacable enemy can be defeated, the Jedi Order is doomed.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Nevertheless, even though the Revan was self-trained in dark arts, he was powerful and battle-hardened to the extent that he was deemed worthy of the DARTH title by the Sith Empire:
Reborn as Sith, the newly named Darth Revan and Darth Malak were tasked with a vital mission by the Emperor - to secure the Star Forge, an ancient space installation built more than 25,000 years earlier by the Rakata Infinite Empire.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
Revan proved his mettle once more, but now as a Dark Lord of the Sith:
As Darth Revan, he created his own Empire and nearly destroyed the Republic, before he was betrayed by Darth Malak - once his friend and ally Alek.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia
Darth Revan was thinking on a monumental level actually:
Revan and Malak scoured the galaxy and ultimately discovered the Star Forge. But instead of delivering it to the Emperor, Revan seized the Star Forge for his own use. With Malak by his side and the Star Forge supplying his fleet, Revan formed a new Sith Empire and prepared to conquer the Republic. Only by uniting the galaxy under his rule could Revan hope to defeat the threat posed by the Emperor.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia
Darth Bane held ancient Sith such as Naga Sadow, Exar Kun and Darth Revan in high regard:
The strength of numbers was a trap, one that snared all the great Dark Lords who had come before. Naga Sadow, Exar Kun, Darth Revan, each had been powerful.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction
Darth Revan constructed a holocron at some point to preserve his knowledge and findings. This is one of the most challenging constructs ever:
Scholars know that a holocron is a box of crystalline lattices, which are capable of housing near-infinite amounts of priceless data. These matrices can be aligned only through precise and exhausting application of the Force. A completed holocron can be accessed only by another Force-user. To navigate a holocron's secrets, one must speak to its gatekeeper - a holographic echo of the device's builder that retains a measure of the builder's spirit. Constructing a holocron can take months, and a single misstep can collapse the device into dust.
Taken from Book of Sith: Secrets from the Dark Side
(please log in to view the image)
NOTE: Jedi Master Mace Windu noted that the Jedi have recovered many Sith holocrons but he did not realize that many of these were actually FAKE (Palpatine's observation; the Jedi are easily fooled). Authentic Sith holocrons are 'uncommon' given the fact that how difficult it is to create one, and chances are finding one is slim.
Darth Bane had luck on his side as he discovered holocron of Darth Revan on Lehon and found its contents to be overwhelming:
To Bane, it seemed the teachings contained within the single Holocron surpassed those of the Academy's entire archives. Revan had discovered many of the rituals of the ancient Sith, and as the Holocron's avatar explained their nature and purpose, Bane could barely wrap his mind around their awesome potential. Some of the rituals were so terrible - so dangerous to attempt, even for a true Sith Master - that he doubted he would ever dare to use them . . .
And there was far more than just the ancient practices of dark side sorcerers stored inside the Holocron. In only a few short weeks he'd learned more about the true nature of the dark side than he had in all his time on Korriban. Revan had been a true Sith Lord, unlike the simpering Masters who bowed to Kaan and his Brotherhood. And soon all his knowledge-his understanding of the dark side-would belong to Bane.
Taken from Star Wars: Darth Bane: Path of Destruction[/B]
Expanding on the bold part below:
Once known as Medriaas, Nathema was an agriworld of the Sith Empire at the time when the Sith also controlled the Chorlian sector. An ancient Dark Lord of the Sith named Darth Vitiate destroyed all life on Nathema with a ritual designed to grant him immortality. A transcription of the ritual was recorded by Darth Revan and served as the inspiration for Lord Kaan's thought bomb on Ruusan.
Taken from Star Wars: Force and Destiny: Core Rulebook
NOTE: Darth Revan's instructions 'motivated' Darth Bane to establish the Rule of Two, and also made it possible for the Bannite Sith to leapfrog the Brotherhood with TRUE knowledge of the dark side. However, a part of this knowledge was deemed too dangerous or risky to replicate by Darth Bane and possibly others. Revan's Sith legacy [indirectly] facilitated the FALL of the Old Republic and the Jedi Order at some point in the future.
Darth Revan and Darth Malak had disagreements in time which eventually culminated into a duel between them and the outcome was grim for Darth Malak:
Malak sees Lord Revan as soft, resulting in a tension that culminates in a lightsaber duel; Malak loses his lower jaw to Revan's blade, necessitating a metallic jaw guard. Returning the favor, Malak fires on Revan's flagship. Unaware that the Jedi have captured the traitor, Malak assumes the crown of the ruling Dark Lord, inheriting the empire.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Darth Malak was however strong in the dark side, strong enough to endure that kind of injury and returned the favor in the form of his BETRAYAL when Darth Revan was preoccupied with a Jedi Strike Team led by the powerful Jedi Knight Bastila Shan, making it possible for the Jedi to capture Darth Revan while in comatose condition, and it took the combined might of the Jedi Council to mindwipe him but the effort was not entirely successful:
"Even the combined power of the Jedi Council couldn't keep your true identity buried forever, could it?" - Darth Malak
EXPANDED:-
Darth Revan and Darth Malak carved a path of destruction across Republic space. Backed by an endless armada built by the Star Forge, and aided by Revan's knowledge of Republic strategy, their victories were numerous and brutal. But after several years of triumphs, Revan's campaign would end abruptly in a Republic trap and Sith deception.
A Jedi strike team assembled to capture Revan - and redeem him, if possible. Under the command of the powerful Jedi Bastila Shan, the strike team attacked Revan's flagship, boarded his vessel, and confronted the mighty Sith. Nearby, Darth Malak sensed the suddenly vulnerability of his Master and promptly exploited it. In a treacherous power grab, Malak bombarded Revan's ship to annihiliate his former friend and the Jedi forces on board. Believing Revan dead, Malak declared himself new ruler of the Sith Empire.
But Revan survived Malak's attack. Severly injured and clinging to his life, he was rescued by Bastila Shan, who transpoted the comatose Sith to the Jedi Enclave on Dantooine. It was there that the Jedi healed not only Revan's wounded body, but the scars and traumas that wacked his mind. Their combined power erased Revan's memories of his dark past. Only a handful of Jedi knew that this innocent soldier had once been the powerful Sith Darth Revan.[/I]
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encylopedia
Revan (KoTOR endgame) became more powerful than before:
"You are stronger than I thought; stronger than you ever were during your reign as the Dark Lord. I did not think that was possible." - Darth Malak
This is apparent from that fact that Revan boarded the Star Forge and fought his way to the respective positions of the corrupted Bastila Shan and Darth Malak and defeated each in separate encounters on the Star Forge:
Revan disabled the Star Forge's disruptor field to clear the path for an assault by the Republic fleet. As a massive space battle raged around the Star Forge, Revan boarded the station - but his progress was blocked by Bastila Shan, now corrupted as Malak's apprentice. Revan overpowered Bastila and saved her from Malak's insidious influence, thus restoring her to the path of the light side. Revan then confronted Darth Malak himself in a fierce duel, but Revan prevailed and finally defeated Darth Malak.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
The aforementioned statement is short and precise but the entire course of battle was filled with challenges that would have crippled a lesser individual. Revan first had to deal with an army of Star Forge's battle droids which Darth Malak expected to have overwhelmed any Jedi in the galaxy. Revan had to deal with another army subsequently encompassing numerous Dark Jedi and Sith apprentices, and he was able to fight his way through up to the position of Bastila.
Bastila Shan is the quintessential Jedi: trained from a very young age and gifted with a natural ability with the Force that has given her both renown and considerable pride.
Taken from Star Wars Knights of the Old Republic - Prima's Official Strategy Guide
Not just that but she was able to draw on the power of the Star Forge to fuel her own in order to keep up with Revan but she was unable to defeat him still.
After redeeming Bastila, Revan had to face scores of Star Forge's battle droids once again but he was able to fight his way through to the position of Darth Malak himself who had also prepared himself for the inevitable:
The Sith Lord had grotesquely adapted the Rakatan device to draw energy directly from chained Jedi captives. He replenished his life force from the captives by draining theirs. Malak was nearly unstoppable, but the Republic emerged from that epic conflict victorious, as the Star Forge was eventually destroyed.
Taken from the Star Wars: Databank (Legends)
+
"The Star Forge is more than just a space station. In some ways, it is like a living creature. It hungers. And it can feed on the dark side that is within all of us! Look around you, Revan. See the bodies? You should recognize them from the Academy. These are Jedi who fell when I attacked Dantooine. For all intents and purposes dead, except for one difference: I have not let them become one with the Force. Instead I have brought them here. The Star Forge corrupts what remains of their power and transfers the dark taint to me! You cannot beat me, Revan. Not here on the Star Forge. Not when I can draw upon the power of all these Jedi!" - Darth Malak (Star Forge)
In spite of all that, Revan was able to defeat/kill Darth Malak in a "fierce duel."
It is 'safe' to assume that it would take much more than the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader to PREVAIL under those set-of-circumstances. Revan's battlefield feats on the Star Forge are a testament to his incredible power and accomplishments as a warrior, and a topic of discussion throughout history (even Darth Plagueis commented on this development while addressing Palpatine about 'power').
Revan's NEWFOUND understanding of the ways of the Force was however perceived as a THREAT to the sanctity of the Jedi Order by the Jedi Council of the time, and he was discouraged from tutoring a new generation of Jedi:
In the first few weeks after Malak's defeat, when he was still being honored and feted as the savior of the galaxy, he had approached the Council with an offer to share his new understanding of the Force with the other members of the Order.
He had expected some resistance, of course. The Council was stuck in the old ways. They didn't understand that the Force was alive. They couldn't accept that it had evolved beyond their staid teachings. Yet he had been unprepared for the sheer hostility of the Council's reaction.
Not only did they reject his offer, but a handful of Councilors had wanted to banish him from the Order. Fortunately, cooler heads had prevailed.
Revan was a hero. The tale of his redemption and return to the light had spread throughout the galaxy … though the sordid details of how the Jedi had stripped away his identity had been carefully excised. The wiser members of the Council understood that the legend of Revan was far too valuable to throw away simply because they no longer had any use for the man himself.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
It was an error that would prove too costly for the Jedi Order because the Jedi Civil War was far from over:
Had Revan returned to face this new threat, Bastila would have eagerly fought by his side. Together they might have been able to quell the uprising, ending it before the horrors of war enveloped the Republic and millions lost their lives. But she had heard nothing of her husband since he had set off with Canderous four years earlier.
Alone, she dared not challenge Darth Traya and her followers. Instead, she had focused on keeping her son alive. It had been the Exile—Meetra Surik—who had taken up the fight against the rogue Jedi. Three years after Revan's unsuccessful attempt to locate her, she had emerged on her own to oppose and eventually defeat Darth Traya. Like Revan before her, she became the savior of the galaxy. And also as with Revan, there were many who felt her recent actions could not atone for the sins of her past.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Revan and Bastila were capable of addressing the threat of the Sith Triumvirate, but Revan was not there to help her in this regard. But a new savior emerged to address the threat (i.e. the former Jedi Exile Meetra Surik).
Unfortunately for Bastila, Revan was still in search for 'answers' about his past because a part of his memories were still missing, but his Starship was shot down on NATHEMA and he was held in captivity by the true Sith for several years since. However, thanks in part to Meetra, he was able to figure out his past in full capacity:
The object was wrapped in cloth. It was clearly metal, and there was something oddly familiar about it.
"You spoke with Bastila?" he asked. "You saw her?"
Meetra nodded. "And your son. They're both well."
Revan smiled. His mind felt like it was floating blissfully away, but he wasn't sure if the euphoria was triggered by thoughts of his family or the drugs still working their way out of his system.
He unwrapped the cloth to reveal the masked helmet he had worn during his campaigns against the Mandalorians and the Republic. In an instant, all his lost memories came flooding back to him.
A million images—years upon years of forgotten people, places, and events—flooded his consciousness simultaneously. In his weakened state it was too much to take. As his brain went into sensory overload, his body went limp.
From that, Revan (Reborn) emerged, and he utterly destroyed a member of the Dark Council Darth Nyriss in a fight who had singlehandely brought both Lord Scourge and Meetra Surik to their knees earlier. Members of the Dark Council are/were expected to be among the powerful Sith in the galaxy at any point in time on average:
In the Emperor's absence, the galaxy's most domineering, powerful, brilliant, and cunning Sith lead the Empire's path to glory.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Encyclopedia
+
While the undying Emperor serves as the unquestioned leader of the Empire, the twelve members of the Dark Council oversee the daily workings of their vast civilization and speak in the Emperor's name. Each is among the most powerful Sith in the galaxy; to hold a seat on the council is the highest honor and the greatest position of influence a Sith can attain.
Taken from SWTOR codex entry: The Dark Council
But Revan (Reborn) is/was in the league of Yoda by any measure (see above), with abilities that were 'second-to-none' to that of any Jedi throughout the history of the Old Republic and beyond:
Three centuries ago, Revan wielded the dual philosophies of Sith passion and Jedi tranquility to conquer his enemies; he even nearly assassinated the Sith Emperor.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic Encyclopedia
---
THAT is something that you can expect from a Yoda TIER Force-user and not any less. Revan posit a LEGITIMATE threat to the most powerful Force-users of the mythos.
Revan (Reborn) was FAR MORE powerful in comparison to what he used to be back in the days of Revan (MW endgame):
In their last meeting he had overwhelmed Revan completely; it wasn't even fair to call it a battle. Revan had grown since then. He was far more powerful now, but was he a match for the Emperor?
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Please keep in mind the possibility that Revan (MW endgame) could be more than a match for the likes of Darth Bane and Darth Vader as noted above. However, Revan (Reborn) is on another level in comparison much like Yoda.
--- --- ---
4. But members of the Sith Triumvirate?
To be fair, Jedi Master Kriea uncovered teachings of Revan and Malak:
Led by a woman named Kreia, the rogue Jedi turned to the dark side teachings uncovered by Malak and Revan. Kreia took the name Darth Traya, and her followers called themselves the Sith after the long-lost species that had invaded the Republic a millennium before. They began a systemic purge of the galaxy, hunting down those who still held fast to the Jedi Code, killing them by the tens of thousands. Their relentless pursuit virtually wiped out the Order, and only those few who managed to flee or hide survived.
- and became far more powerful while being Darth Traya.
Darth Traya (KoTOR II endgame) was able to dismiss and vanquish 3 well-known Jedi Masters including one of the most powerful (Vrook Lamar) in a fight in order to save the Jedi Exile (Meetra Surik) from potential execution. She was also capable of [one-shotting] a large group of Sith Assassins on Malachor V, and established firm superiority over Darth Sion at this point.
She was also stronger than Meetra (KoTOR II endgame):
Although Traya was more powerful, the Exile managed to defeat her in combat.
Taken from The Complete Star Wars Encyclopedia
THAT could be due to following factors:
1) Meetra was still a Wound in the Force at the time, and Darth Traya's impressive command of the formidable Force Drain application was of little use in this contest.
2) Meetra was somehow able to disarm Darth Traya as the duel progressed (i.e. cutting off her remaining hand), and the latter decided to make use of her vast telekinetic powers to wield multiple lightsabers against the Jedi.
3) Darth Traya was like a teacher to Meetra:
"You are greater than any I have ever trained." - Darth Traya
It is therefore unclear if Darth Traya allowed Meetra to strike her down in the end, or made a mistake. But one thing is clear that Meetra prevailed in this duel.
Darth Traya versus Meetra Surik can be likened to the case of Anakin Skywalker vesus Obi-Wan Kenobi to be honest. Therefore, difficult to evaluate.
Anyways, Meetra was unable to defeat Darth Nyriss in a duel. And Revan (Reborn) was on another level in comparison to both. Therefore, it is 'safe' to conclude that he was more powerful than Darth Traya as well.
---
Darth Nihilus was an ANOMALY of sorts; subject to his condition of HUNGER (a byproduct of his unpleasant experiences on Malachor V) and formal instruction of Darth Traya, he was able to employ Force Drain on a vast scale, the likes of which not seen before (assuming a lone individual). He became overspecialized in this one area consequently. That he was able to consume an entire world from a distance just to satiate his HUNGER as well as subconscious feeding on his subjects on the Ravager, suggest an absolute lack of CONTROL on his part:
"There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing. And it devours him as he devours others—his mere presence kills all around him, slowly, feeding him. He is already dead, it is simply a question of how many he kills before he falls." - Darth Traya
Darth Nihilus could not FUNCTION in that capacity for indefinite period given his condition which was taking a heavy toll on him and how many he was killing from time-to-time. It was only a matter of time that he would fall apart or self-implode...
Darth Nihilus was more like a 'weapon of mass destruction', but on a timer. He was powerful but in a different way than natural Force-users (a being of pure hunger and dark side power), with the exception of the Sith Emperor of-course:
The Emperor was no longer a member of the Sith species; his power and immortality had transformed him into a being unique in the galaxy.
From Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
Darth Nihilus made the Ravager airborne while on Malachor V - an environment unusually strong in the dark side. Once made airborne, Darth Nihilus developed a powerful bond with this starship and could hold it together in this manner (Telekinetic application was no longer the case at this point):
"Nihilus: Some poetic license was taken with the Ravager – I mostly wanted Nihilus to have a ghost ship in keeping with his personality. It wouldn't immediately fall apart without Nihilus, but his presence there and his ties to it make minor changes and upkeeps to its function and hull that keep it intact – if barely. When killed, the ship would slowly begin to fall apart into wreckage, although it’s not held together by any sort of super Telekinesis." - Chris Avellone
Above all, Darth Nihilus had utterly SPOOKED Darth Traya since he had sapped her powers in a double-cross before leaving Malachor V for good:
Darth Traya indeed teaches the newly christened Darth Nihilus to harness his life-draining gift to radical heights - so effectively, in fact, that Nihilus saps Traya's powers in a calculated double-cross.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Darth Traya recovered her powers via Meetra:
As Sion and Nihilus unwittingly aid her by carrying out a massive assassination campaign against the Jedi, Traya seeks the Jedi Exile, Revan's old general, who had been severed from the Force. Together forging a telepathic link, they revitalize their Force connections.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
Although, it is hinted that Revan and Bastila (both post-KoTOR) could address the menace of the Sith Triumvirate while working side-by-side at an early stage (see above). Revan's NEWFOUND understanding of the ways of the Force would come in handy...
Nevertheless, following revelation:
She still wasn't sure what to make of Lord Scourge. She had sensed that his offer to work together was sincere, though she wondered how much of that was Revan's doing. It was easy to understand how Scourge could be drawn to him; Revan's command of the Force was greater than that of anyone else she had ever met. And she knew how charismatic he could be. Even though he was a prisoner it wasn’t hard to imagine him being in total control of the situation.
Taken from Star Wars: The Old Republic: Revan
- seems to be an attribution to Revan (post-KoTOR II), and make sense when taken in the context of his ACTUALIZED POWER at the time.
Revan (post-KoTOR II) had a NEWFOUND understanding of the ways of the Force, and his raw power was also 'approaching' Yoda TIER at this point.
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 06:54 PM
My assessment align with that of Mr. Chris Avellone to large extent (Revan vs. Darth Vader part in particular); although, to be fair to Darth Nihilus, he could kill/consume 'any' (natural) Force-user given his unprecedented command of Force Drain. Although, Darth Vader could render himself immune to the effects of Force Drain and/or its derivatives for a short period of time (ambiguity factor), this might not be much of a help to him when up against Darth Nihilus whose mere presence had a detrimental effect on those near him and he is very likely to make heavy use of these powers to his advantage even in combative situations. Darth Nihilus is/was very strong in other applications as well including his ability to 'immobilize' opponent(s) and Telekinetic applications. Therefore, he could find a way to undermine Darth Vader in single combat until latter's defenses against Force Drain falter.
Below is a footage showing cut-content of KoTOR II:-
Although, not official, it does show what Darth Nihilus could do in a fight in which he was not circumstantially compromised. He [one-shotted] other individuals who stood nearby and utterly dominated Darth Sion in 'any' scenario. In one of the cut-scenes, Darth Sion [one-shotted] a Jedi survivor in an encounter. Therefore, a degree of SCALING is shown as well.
Revan versus Darth Nihilus
Revan vs. Darth Nihilus is a debate in itself; Revan was packing 'surprises' of his own, and only the Sith Emperor outgunned him in combative situations. The Sith Emperor had [one-shotted] a rebellious Dark Council before, such was the measure of his power.
For now; I would say that if Revan make the first move, he is likely to dictate the course of the battle (vs. Darth Nihilus). However, opposite can also be true.
Great blog my friend! I’m glad my blog inspired you to write this although I am not sure how I played a role in that . I especially like how you started with MW Revan and went up to Revan Reborn to show how much more powerful Revan became between the two.
A point I would like to address is that Nihilus did eventually find a way to continue ‘living’ even after his hunger would have devoured him.
"Nothing matters except his hunger. Before it devours him totally, Nihilus uses its power to displace his persona into his robes and armor. As his useless body disintegrates, he becomes living primitive intention; at last, the whole of the galaxy becomes food—for Nihilus has become the hunger."
¯Star Wars: Knights of the Old Republic Campaign Guide
As such, he would have actually continued functioning for an indefinite period and would not have fallen apart due to his hunger devouring him.
Another point is that we don’t know when or how long it took for Nihilus to establish the ‘bond’ with his ship. Since leaving Malachor V and when his ship was destroyed (i.e the events Chris was talking about in his quote) it has been around 2-3 years since Nihilus became the master of the Ravager.
Finally, I don’t believe Meetra could have attributed her quote to post Kotor 2 Revan. Revan was a prisoner (and under a lot of drugs) at this time and as such Meetra could not have known how post Kotor 2 Revan was or how great his command of the Force was at this time regardless of Revan having a newfound of understanding of the Force. Revan also (seemingly) became Yoda tier after he became Revan Reborn and this was after Meetra gave him the mask. The last time she met Revan was during MW Revan and as such her quote had to be attributed to this version of Revan regardless of how much more powerful Revan became later on.
I'd like to point out that, when he's discussed hypothetical versus battles in the past, Avellone typically hasn't approached them as 1v1 cage matches like we tend to here. For example, when asked about whether or not Nihilus could just drain Revan to death, he answered with something along the lines of: "It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."
Whether or not he was thinking along those same lines in that tweet about Vader and Nihilus, obviously I can't say for sure. But in my experience, that's how he tends to approach things: from the setting that 'they both exist in the same time period, and have decided the galaxy isn't big enough for the both of them,' rather than the setting that 'they're both on an empty plain with their lightsabers drawn.' In private correspondence, he's also said that he considers Vader and Palpatine to be the "end-all be-all dark side badasses." As I recall, that was from a discussion that was specifically about Nihilus, too. So take from that what you will.
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Last edited by NewGuy01 on Jun 2nd, 2020 at 11:16 PM
I am glad you actually pointed that out. I agree with you on that point as well. Chris doesn't seem to approach 1v1s like we do and rather looks at it from a bigger perspective than a 'cage' match. If you look at his answer between Vader and Nihilus he goes on about Nihilus and Vader fighting in the present or the past and things like that. How would that make a difference in a 1v1 cage match though? Why does it matter when (present or past) they fight? He seems to be looking at it in a different view than we do.
The same thing happened when a Chris was asked if Revan would be able to resist Nihilus's drain. Chris just goes on saying stuff how Revan is more tactically sound than Kreia and what not. Again he is looking at things in a different perspective.
Why try to 'corner' an author in a conversation? No author will offer a DEFINITIVE 'answer' under such circumstances.
"It doesn't matter if he could or not, because Revan wouldn't confront him directly. He'd lure him into a trap, and blow him to smithereens from afar before he even had the chance to resist."
Congratulations for that because Mr. Chris Avellone dodged the bullet in that case.
The tweet which I shard is straightforward and to the point in its message. The author particularly asserted that Revan would wreck them both. There's that.
That statement is contradicted by the original source KoTOR II itself:
Q: Tell me what you saw.
R: A man, nothing more.
Darth Nihilus might have imbued his MASK and ROBES with a part of his essence at some point. His body and robes vanished in the end, but his MASK was probably taken.
Secondly, well, Darth Traya was of the view that he would fall apart at some point because his condition was taking a toll on his very existence. INSTABILITY factor?
True, but a bond can develop swiftly.
The quote in focus, is not time-sensitive. And the accolade within, seems to imply the PRESENT situation (not Revan's past).
On the contrary. The answers he provided in the aforementioned conversation were detailed, and he had opportunities to clarify his intent in follow-up questions. The tweet you provided was just an ambiguous one-sentence answer. There is no good reason at all to discard the former in favor of the latter, unless the goal is to deliberately misconstrue his opinion.
As per usual, your judgement here is being clouded by your desire to push your narrative.
Visas, however, is blind and does not perceive things and physical forms as we do. Her species don’t have physical eyes. My other quote is further supported by other quotes:
"Lord Nihilus, you escaped death by containing your consciousness within your armor. How?!"
¯Darth Krayt (Legacy: Broken)
Kreia did mention that his hunger was devouring him but she did not know that Nihilus has placed his consciousness into his robes and armor and would continue to function on. The quote I mentioned earlier mentions ‘useless body disintegrates’ meaning he no longer needs it to stay ‘alive’ or within the physical world.
I am not sure if a bond would develop swiftly or not but in either case Nihilus would have probably had to keep the ship together with TK long enough for this bond to become of significance. Either way, he would be capable of keeping his ship together with TK. This is further supported by when Meetra’s strike team attacked Nihilus’s ship. Instead of just detonating the bombs (proton charges) they planted on his ship, they had to fight Nihilus because they knew that if they just detonated the bombs, he would still be able to keep the ship together. So not only could Nihilus keep the ship together in normal situations, but even in more difficult situations when proton charges are exploding from the inside. That’s pretty impressive I think.
The quote is stated from Meetra’s perspective and as such has to refer to MW Revan as this is the last time she saw Revan. She doesn’t know how Revan is in the present. This isn’t a question of whether the quote is in the present or past, but the fact that it’s from Meetra’s point of view. Present or past wouldn’t matter because Meetra does not know how Revan is in the current present. She only knows the past Revan (MW Revan). How would Meetra know current Revan's Command of the Force when he is trapped in prison and she hasn't meet him yet?
I have clearly stated that Darth Nihilus can take on and defeat any natural Force-user, given his powers and particularly unprecedented command of the Force Drain. That, depending upon how the fight materialze, he can defeat Revan (Reborn) as well.
That is the measure of my respect and acknowledgement of numerous official revelations which lead me to that conclusion.
Your focus on a tweet is disappointing. It is just to add some perspective in my blog.
That might be the case but she is able to 'see' when next to Darth Nihilus?
"To cut the last bond between herself and Nihilus, she peers beneath his death mask to look upon the face of pure evil."
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
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Friend, this debate have philosophical underpinnigs.
On the face of it, Darth Nihilus give the impression of being a remarkably powerful Force-user because of his MUSCLE showings. However, Darth Traya offer a deeper perspective in relation in which she explain that he is an ANOMALY and not like conventional Force-users. When a parallel is draw between Revan and others, much of the lore tend to favor Revan in HYPE and otherwise.
Something is amiss, and therefore, my blog.
Unfortunately, KMC editing rules are rigid, and contents of the blog cannot be amended here.
1. The term 'raw power' allude to an accomplishment without CONTROL in the mix.
2. The term 'command of the Force' allude to an accomplishment with CONTROL and ALTER aspects in the mix
Darth Nihilus needs to feed in order to sustain himself for indefinite period given his anomalic condition. If he is not able to feed, he will fall apart eventually. Problem was that his condition was worsening over time and he was under greater pressure to feed accordingly while the Sith Triumvirate hunted the Jedi to the point of near extinction on the other hand. When he approached Telos IV, he was rather disappointed although he attempted to consume it but was stopped beforehand.
Up against the true Sith Empire, he stood no chance whatsoever. He was not prepared to fight a war on this scale.
Darth Traya did mention that "he is already dead." This suggest that she probably knew more about him then she was letting on in her statements.
The statement in focus, does offer an alternative perspective of Darth Nihilus; that he is not an impressive Force-user with an unparalleled 'command of the Force' in conventional sense or something on these lines. That he was utterly lacking in the CONTROL aspect. He is an ANOMALY; an instrument of HUNGER (the unintended byproduct of being a Wound in the Force) and being driven by it:
"There is no strength in the hunger he possesses… and the will behind his power is a primal thing.".
Darth Nihilus's anomalic condition is the 'primary reason' that he is able to 'consume a world' - his greatest demonstration of power (the ALTER aspect). This phenomenon was also like a LOOP in which Darth Nihilus could blanket an entire environment with Force Drain in order to feed on a mass scale and this is how he would revitalize himself and satiate in hunger; rinse and repeat.
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Well, both of us are swimming in the "speculatory territory" in this case. A bond can be established in a short amount of time, and with sheer force of will.
When Darth Traya and Meetra Surik met, they established a bond which set them both to the path of recovery:
As Sion and Nihilus unwittingly aid her by carrying out a massive assassination campaign against the Jedi, Traya seeks the Jedi Exile, Revan's old general, who had been severed from the Force. Together forging a telepathic link, they revitalize their Force connections.
Taken from Knights of the Old Republic: Campaign Guide
It is possible that Darth Nihilus had created a bond with the Ravager early on in order to make it operational. It was a ruined vessel otherwise.
That does not discount his application of Telekinesis in raising the Ravager from the surface of Katarr to say the least.
Given the condition of Darth Nihilus, it was much better for him to avoid demanding applications of the Force.
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The CONTEXT surrounding the statement is that of Lord Scourge and him being under influence of Revan, and Mandalorian Wars timeline is not even hinted in it.
The accolade is stated in the manner that it is not time-bound or time-sensitive.
Revan's 'command of the Force' could still be superior to that of Darth Nihilus even as of MW endgame because he had become the most powerful Jedi of the era anyways. And there were many impressive Jedi out there at the time. Meetra would at the least know that Revan only got better from there.
Here is what I mainly understood from your points/blog.
You are basically saying that Nihilus isn’t like a conventional Force user and more of an anomaly of some sort due to his special condition. His ‘Command of the Force’ aspect isn’t like a conventional Force user(and compared/scaled in that way) and kind of special because Nihilus lacks the ‘CONTROL’ factor of it. Since Nihilus only has the ‘ASPECT’ part of the ‘Command of the Force’ and Revan has shown both ‘ASPECT’ and ‘CONTROL’, you are saying that MW Revan ‘Command’ could have been greater than Nihilus mainly due to Nihilus lacking the ‘CONTROL’ part,due to his special condition/ANOMALY, but not due to his lack of raw Power (hence the neglection for ‘CONTROL’ in the raw Power definition). Nihilus’s ‘Command of the Force’ is basically a special case/anomaly and does not mean that he is weaker than a user with higher ‘Command’ (i.e MW Revan).
The above is what I think you were trying to say in the blog and hence why you wrote it. Let me know if I misunderstood/missed anything you were trying to say.
Regarding the ‘bond’ discussion (which I don’t think is a big discussion anyways), there is clear evidence to suggest that Nihilus is capable of keeping the ship together with TK anyways (with or without the bond). When Chris mentions the bond, he also says that the bond barely keeps the ship intact. Keep in mind that the bond is barely able to keep the ship intact specifically under normal conditions. Now relate this back to my earlier point when Meetra and her team boarded the Ravager. If it was just the bond that is capable of keeping the ship together, then Meetra and her team would have successfully been able to simply detonate the proton charges and destroy the ship because the bond barely keeps it intact under normal situations meaning the proton charges would definitely be able to overcome this ‘bond’. The fact that Meetra and her team knew that they could not simply destroy the ship using the charges (before killing Nihilus) is a clear indication that Nihilus must have been able to keep the ship together himself in order to overcome those proton charges if they detonated. Otherwise, Meetra would have just simply detonated those charges. This is clear evidence that Nihilus can keep the ship together himself if need be.
As for the quote, I am afraid that I am going to have to completely disagree with you my friend. I don’t really understand what this ‘context’ or ‘time sensitivity’ you are referring to. It seems very clear to me that the quote is referring to MW Revan. Meetra simply did not meet current Revan and as such would have no assessment of his ‘Command of the Force’. Her assessment has to refer to the last time she met Revan; MW Revan. There is no ‘context’ or ‘time sensitivity’ argument to be had really. Meetra is in fact thinking in past tense. After the ‘Command of the Force’ sentence, she says that she ‘knew how charismatic he [Revan] could be’. The sentence is clearly in past tense and thus Meetra is thinking about past Revan (i.e MW Revan).This is also consistent with the logic that Meetra would not have an assessment of current Revan. I honestly don’t think there is a way to play around this quote. It seems very clear.
As for the blog updates, I have not checked those out yet. I personally don’t like using KMC. The structure is hard to follow and read and its difficult to even post things/make changes.
Darth Nihilus was 'approaching' the Sith Emperor in the ALTER aspect when he consumed Katarr, but he was lacking in the CONTROL aspect throughout.
The CONTROL aspect is one of the most powerful abilities of a Force-user.
Consider this. You buy a high-performance car with "autopilot function." While useful in certain situations, it does not offer the level of CONTROL that a skilled driver has. There is no substitute for a skilled driver in "high-stakes driving." High-performance cars which are used in "racing tournaments," feature MANUAL gears as well. Why do you think this is the case?
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Yes, you are correct. Darth Nihilus would have that kind of power, to hold the Ravager together with his sheer raw power if everything else fails. Though I am not sure for long this application could be sustained.
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Well, interpretations can vary in relation to any statement (QUALITATIVE); perceived reality.
If you have ever studied research paradigms and their respective ontology (theory of knowledge)...
Positivism = Reality is objective
Interpretivism = Reality is perceived
Constructivism = Reality is constructed
Critical theory = Reality have historical underpinnings
Post-positivism = Reality can be objective and perceived; both aspects may complement each other.
Your perspective can be just as valid as mine.
You may say that that statement allude to Revan as of the MW endgame; valid.
But somebody may say that that statement is not time-sensitive to that extent because the CONTEXT surrounding it is that of Revan's impact on Lord Scourge whom Meetra Surik met in the present. And as I pointed out earlier, Revan's 'command of the Force' had only grown since. Therefore, Meetra's assessment remain valid one way or the other.
While consensus-building is possible, debates are never-ending...
Last edited by S_W_LeGenD on Jun 4th, 2020 at 07:37 AM
Whilst I do think that your theory is interesting, I do believe there is a flaw in it. Nihilus could not control his HUNGER as his hunger starting growing and taking over him. It was his hunger than he couldn't control and not the Force power itself. This is also evident when Sion confronts Nihilus. Nihilus is able to basically ragdoll Sion and move him around in the air in complete control (if you watch the video you gave from 1:53 to 2:05) of the Force.
So basically his hunger took control over him and became like an instinct.
Jun 2nd, 2020 06:44 PM
. I especially like how you started with MW Revan and went up to Revan Reborn to show how much more powerful Revan became between the two.
