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Home » Star Wars » Star Wars: Literature & Expanded Universe » Luke destroys Palpatine (canon)


Luke destroys Palpatine (canon)
Started by: Galan007

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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

Luke destroys Palpatine (canon)

*Note: this is essentially just a "what-if" dream/vision sequence that Palpatine was able to pull from Vader's mind(during ESB), but I thought it was very well done nonetheless. It speaks to what Vader believed Luke may have been capable of with some proper [Sith] instruction.

Here is the complete chapter. It is definitely worth a read:
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https://ibb.co/1fBGVCh
-From a Certain Point of View: The Empire Strikes Back


It also seems to imply that Palpatine believed Luke's potential = Anakin's:
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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 15th, 2020 at 05:40 PM

Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 05:33 PM
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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
Location: United States


 

Well at least they havenít wrecked that narrative. But nice I suppose.


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Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 05:42 PM
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Sheev
The All-Sith

Registered: Apr 2018
Location: Exegol


 

Damn that was really good actually.

I know it's just a dream or w/e but it really makes you wonder how much truth there was to it? Like would a theoretical Sith Luke have really been able to stomp Sidious THAT casually?

I wonder if ST Luke ever got to that level?


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Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 05:47 PM
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Darthadi
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2019
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Didn't this implie that Vader lost potential?

Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 06:20 PM
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Zenwolf
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2013
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darthadi
Didn't this implie that Vader lost potential?


He always lost potential, thatís why he wanted Luke to join him. Potential =\= Power.


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Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 06:25 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darthadi
Didn't this implie that Vader lost potential?
Not necessarily.

As you and I have discussed before, we know that Palpatine was keeping Vader's potential in check via selective 'training' and his own knowledge-hoarding. What this chapter does reconfirm is that the 'light' within Vader had absolutely resurfaced with the revelation that Luke was his son:
"Through the Force, Palpatine could feel the battle within Vader, the struggle to contain his desires. Despite the armor and machinery, Vader's heart still beat with the fire of Anakin Skywalker. A fire that Palpatine would put to the test."

The RoS novelization also states that Palpatine had sensed the "flickering light" within Vader for years, which is partially why he began making preparations to transfer his essence and whatnot -- he knew betrayal(and not of the Sith kind) was imminent. With Luke, Palpatine likely thought that he could be properly brainwashed as a Sith, and any good within him could be snuffed out entirely.

I imagine the good within Vader is also why Palpatine chose to keep his power neutered -- he's not going to invest a bunch of time/effort into bolstering the power of someone who could very well return to the light side.

Aside from that, this vision shows you how much Vader had changed by ESB. Up to the Rebels/ANH era, Vader despised the very thought of Anakin -- he believed that Anakin represented a Jedi that he had completely destroyed(ie. there was no "Anakin"; there was only "Vader".) But in this chapter he was fully imagining himself as Anakin Skywalker again. Pretty interesting.


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 15th, 2020 at 06:57 PM

Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 06:52 PM
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Darthadi
Senior Member

Registered: Dec 2019
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Does the last quote really implies that Luk's potential is equal to Anakin's? The way i read it it implies only that Luke being a Skywalker has enormous potential.

Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 09:21 PM
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Unbowed
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Galan007


The RoS novelization also states that Palpatine had sensed the "flickering light" within Vader for years, which is partially why he began making preparations to transfer his essence and whatnot -- he knew betrayal(and not of the Sith kind) was imminent.

Then why not preemptively dispose of him?

Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 10:01 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Darthadi
Does the last quote really implies that Luk's potential is equal to Anakin's? The way i read it it implies only that Luke being a Skywalker has enormous potential.
According to Palpatine, Luke had the "true" potential of the Skywalker bloodline. So it seems like Palpatine believed that a "Darth Luke" could have become everything he intended Anakin/Vader to be(minus the underlying good and mangled body.)

But the exact meaning of that is still open to interpretation, I suppose.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
Then why not preemptively dispose of him?
My opinion:
After Palpatine set his sights on Luke, Vader essentially became a middleman who was acting in a filler capacity. So even though Palpatine was fully aware of the good in Vader, and even made preparations for his likely betrayal, Palps still kept him around in order to exploit the father/son connection between he and Luke -- with the ultimate goal being that Vader could help fully turn Luke to the dark side, thereby becoming Palpatine's new apprentice and/or vessel(as the RoS novelization also implies that Palpatine was goading Luke into striking him down in RotJ so that he could hop into his body.)


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Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 15th, 2020 at 11:52 PM

Old Post Nov 15th, 2020 11:37 PM
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ares834
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2009
Location: United States


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Unbowed
Then why not preemptively dispose of him?


The idea that Palaptine was somehow able to sense Vader's inner light is shit writing. It's clearly from a hack author that failed to understand even the simplest things in RotJ and is best ignored.

Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 12:27 AM
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Eli Vanto
Tactical Prodigy

Registered: Jan 2020
Location: Chiss Defense Fleet


 

The light was always there so it makes sense that Sidious would be able to sense it eventually.

It's not like Vader would have ever turned good on his own- Luke was still required to properly redeem him. It's just that Vader's emotional conflict after discovering that his son was alive and Sidious had lied to him about Padme's death, prevented him from ascending to greater heights as a Sith.


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Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 02:46 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

I wouldn't say the light was "always" there.

Pretty much all canon information tells us that prior to ANH(and the revelation that he had a son), Vader actually had killed all the good within himself... And Soule's Vader series really drives that point home.

But after Vader discovered that he had a son(and especially after he discovered that Palpatine had lied to him about Padme's death) the inner conflict was greater than ever. So it is logical that Palpatine would be able to sense it, imo.

This also gives credence to Hidalgo's previous statement that Rebels Vader = prime Vader. He was as "Sith" as it gets at the time, while he became conflicted later on... Though I am still curious to see what Vader does(in the current comic series) to redeem himself enough to be Palpatine's right hand man again by RotJ..?


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 03:24 PM
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ares834
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2009
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No. It doesn't make any sense at all as it contradicts a key point of RotJ. That is, that only Luke believed in the good in Vader. No one else in RotJ believed such a thing was possible. Not Obi-Wan, not Yoda, not Sheev, not even Vader himself. Only Luke. In fact, these other characters all talk about how such a thing is impossible.

Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 05:37 PM
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Eli Vanto
Tactical Prodigy

Registered: Jan 2020
Location: Chiss Defense Fleet


 

Luke redeemed Vader, and completely brought him back to the light side. THAT is what most others considered impossible.

Without Luke, Vader would have never willingly gone back to the light. Goodness in him or not.

Also, if Luke was able to sense the good in Vader, why is it so hard to believe that Sidious could sense it as well?


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Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 05:43 PM
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Psychotron
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If Sidious sensed Vader's inner conflict it would make no sense to turn his back on him while he tortures Luke in front of him. In RotJ it's heavily implied that Palpatine did not think Vader had any light left in him: "By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the dark side."

Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 05:45 PM
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ares834
Senior Member

Registered: Apr 2009
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Exactly.
quote: (post)
Originally posted by Eli Vanto
Also, if Luke was able to sense the good in Vader, why is it so hard to believe that Sidious could sense it as well?


Because it contradicts the film. Everyone else, including Sheev, talks about how Anakin is dead and Vader can't turn.

As for why Luke could sense it buy Sidious could not. That's obviously because Luke and Vader had a special connection. Like when Vader was able to sense Luke aboard the ship but Sidious could not.

At best, Sidious may have begun to suspect that Vader had some inner conflict ("Are your feelings clear on this?") but he certainly did not sense any inner light or hope for redemption.

Last edited by ares834 on Nov 16th, 2020 at 06:15 PM

Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 06:08 PM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Psychotron
If Sidious sensed Vader's inner conflict it would make no sense to turn his back on him while he tortures Luke in front of him. In RotJ it's heavily implied that Palpatine did not think Vader had any light left in him: "By now you must know that your father can never be turned from the dark side."
Really depends what happens between ESB and RotJ.

As I mentioned above: in the current comic series(set just after ESB), Palpatine is very much aware of the conflict -- that's why he stomped the christ out of Vader and threw him away on Mustafar, for example. The RoS novelization also states that Palpatine had sensed the "flickering light" in Vader for years... But the films tell us that by the time of RotJ, Vader had redeemed himself enough to be back at Palpatine's side once more.

So perhaps RotJ Vader truly did believe that he had killed-off those emotions again(to the point where even Palpatine could no longer sense them), but then the conflict/good slowly started to resurface once he and Luke met towards the end of the film? Dunno.

That being said, Beware The Power of the Dark Side!(a canon retelling of RotJ) does state that Vader feared Luke because he was the one being in the galaxy who could make Vader question his loyalty to the dark side... And Vader initially hated him for that. Same novel also states that Vader was channeling hatred/rage/fear against Luke during their entire battle(until he saw Palpatine literally killing Luke, which triggered his ultimate redemption.) So the above theory is probably what happens: Vader's conflict/good is buried so deep by RotJ that neither Palpatine(or even Vader himself) were aware of it... Until the end.


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Nov 16th, 2020 06:31 PM
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Psychotron
Senior Member

Registered: Jun 2011
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I've got no problem with Vader having an inner conflict since ESB, it's the notion that the Emperor is aware of it that I disagree with. Like, if Sidious had the vision he had in the first post how the hell did he trust Vader to block Luke's lightsaber? The Emperor had to believe that Vader was fully under his control to allow that.

Old Post Nov 17th, 2020 04:26 AM
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Galan007
|Quantum Observer|

Registered: Jul 2006
Location: Mars, 1985


 

At this point I think they should add a some additional context to the scene... Since they're already going that route anyway.

Make it so that Vader blocked Luke's strike because he knew that if Luke killed Palpatine in anger, he would be able to transfer his essence into Luke's body(basically what he tried to do with Rey.) So essentially Vader would have saved Luke from possession there.


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"I am tired of Earth. These people.
I am tired of being caught in the tangle of their lives."

Old Post Nov 17th, 2020 12:40 PM
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Eli Vanto
Tactical Prodigy

Registered: Jan 2020
Location: Chiss Defense Fleet


 

That would work.

Have it so that Vader was really saving Luke, but could pass it off as protecting his master. I like it. thumb up


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Old Post Nov 17th, 2020 02:46 PM
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