Vader is certainly more powerful now than ever -- this newfound control he's gained over his emotions/hatred seems to have provided a substantial boost(as Palpatine himself mentioned.) That said, I personally still view Palpatine as notably superior... Once he FL-TK'd Vader against the wall, he [Vader] was pretty much glued there for the rest of the skirmish, and had to rely on outside 'assistance' to get out of that situation. The impressive part was Vader blocking the FL with one arm while he was TK'ing the droids with his other arm.
Granted, Vader is obviously closer to Palpatine's level now, but does this showing necessarily prove that Vader and Palpatine have relative power? Not really, imo. Palpatine is still >. The only question is how much '>' he is. /shrug
But anyway, this issue again solidifies that Vader was at his peak by RotJ.
__________________
Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 11th, 2023 at 07:09 PM
Weirdly enough, I feel this is actually a worse showing for Vader than when he confronted Palpatine much earlier in the run. Last time Palpatine was blasting lightning at Vader, Vader still managed to advance on him, pushing through the lightning and almost reaching him before Mas Amedda and the Red Guard stepped in to distract Vader. This time around, Vader was on his back foot the whole time Palpatine was blasting away at him. Sure, it's impressive that Vader was able to block the lightning with one hand and use the Force with the other, but nothing he did really depicted him pushing Palpatine. Instead, Vader just forced Palpatine to break off his focus on Vader to deal with the scourge. Of Vader's many confrontations with Palpatine since the 2020 comic runs started, this is one of the less impressive ones in my eyes.
Boy, we've sure come a long way since Lords of the Sith dropped a decade ago, and we figured Vader was sort of close to the Emperor's power, but the Emperor was still >, and the only question was by how much. Oh, but this one is set in 3 ABY instead of 14 BBY, so it's totally different. Vader will stop being the Emperor's bitch any day now... and Luke will finally be good enough to beat up the Emperor in Return of the Jedi... what exciting times we live in.
Other thing to consider is how Sidious has dealt with the force wave in general compared to Vader. Vader is just now BARELY learning how to maintain control with the wild fluctuations in the force, and he seems pressed to do so. Meanwhile, Sidious doesn't seem like he's been affected at all by it due to his superior control.
I'll give Vader the benefit of the doubt and assume that Sidious may have been holding back during that other FL encounter, because here Sidious definitely needed to dig a little deeper to overpower Vader. But once he did Vader was pretty much helpless against the wall.
As explained in the post on CV, Vader was not “helpless” against the wall. He is able to tank the lightning, recover and overpower the lightning, redirecting it back to his blade and slowly press forward against it, eventually being able to block it with one hand while also ragdolling the troopers Palpatine tries to distract him with. And this is a Palpatine who has been trying to kill Vader, and prevent him from releasing the scourge on Coruscant, so not holding back. His power is also boosted by Vader’s hatred.
Last edited by xPRIMEx on Nov 12th, 2023 at 12:23 AM
Yeah, I wouldn't say "helpless" is the right word, given that Vader was capable of preforming other tasks while combating the FL. But he was pinned against the wall, and didn't exactly seem to be making any noteworthy forward progress at all. Had the droids not been there to help break Palpatine's concentration, then I don't know what Vader could have really done, aside from hoping that Palpatine burned out first(which is unlikely.) /shrug
Also, the final pages implied that even with Vader's newfound powerup, he still realized that he wasn't capable of defeating Palpatine alone -- hence while he allowed the scourge to incorporate into his system immediately afterward: https://ibb.co/j4JZfFy https://ibb.co/DDpHG5t "Now you see... You cannot defeat him alone... You need me."
At any rate, we already know that during RotJ itself, Vader was still Palpatine's subservient lapdog(ie. "I MUST obey my Master!") So barring some sort of major revelation that fully alters what we currently know about movie canon, it's not like Vader is ever going to become a true threat/rival to Palpatine in a one-on-one scenario... Even "closer to" Palpatine's level(like Vader is now), is still not Palpatine's level.
Will be interesting to see what happens by the time this arc is wrapped up, though.
__________________
Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 12th, 2023 at 01:36 PM
Well he gets up and is able to directly overpower the lightning by moving it away from his arms and back to his saber. Would he be able to beat Palpatine had the fight continued? Probably not, but it’s still quite impressive and indicates some level of parity between the two.
I'd agree that Vader was able to go from a submissive position(ie. when Palpatine initially FL-TK'd him against the wall), back into a defensive position(ie. when Vader began to actively block the FL again), but that's really... All he ultimately managed. At the end of the day he was still decisively pinned against the wall, and had to rely on third party shenanigans to get out of it. Vader is obviously very powerful(now moreso than ever), but Palpatine is just... More.
I also don't like having to rely on zoomed-in/hyper-analyzed individual comic panels to try and make the feat more impressive than it is. I've been reading comics long enough to know that if a writer intends to make something obvious for their target demographic(which are kids, tbh) to understand, they typically do via explicit narration, and/or clear-cut artwork.
__________________
Last edited by Galan007 on Nov 13th, 2023 at 12:31 PM
One could argue that Vader actually won the confrontation by releasing the scourge upon Coruscant, which is exactly what Palpatine was trying to prevent from happening. He was ultimately unable to break Vader’s defenses, even after trying to distract Vader with the death troopers.
Well firstly, I was only speaking to their one-on-one confrontation. Secondly, Palpatine nullified the scourge shortly afterward when he activated "protocol 23" and wiped out a couple sectors of Coruscant.
So even from that perspective, Vader ultimately didn't accomplish anything.
I’d say he accomplished quite a bit considering the fact that he was able to release the scourge on the city and force Palpatine to wipe out entire sectors of the city. Definitely not an ideal situation for an Emperor. Previous Vader comics have shown that Palpatine does not like when Vader creates chaos and destruction on coruscant.
Last edited by xPRIMEx on Nov 14th, 2023 at 12:29 AM
Speaking strictly of their one-on-one confrontation, it’s not like Palpatine accomplished much himself. Despite initially knocking Vader back against the wall, he was ultimately unable to break Vader’s defenses again. Even his attempt to distract Vader failed and backfired on him completely.
Palpatine didn't give a shit about destroying sectors of Courscant(he made that much clear in his dialogue with Vader.) There was no longer a Senate, after all, so it's not like he had to come up with an excuse for anyone. In the past, Palpatine sought to avoid collateral damage on his capital world, but in this particular case he... Didn't really care. Vader's "trump card" ultimately gained him nothing at all.
As for what Palpatine accomplished: he once against 'reminded' Vader of the order of things(ie. why he is the Master)... A fact that Vader himself seemed to acknowledge, hence why he allowed the scourge to incorporate itself into his system shortly afterward. In the end, Vader could only manage to mount a purely defensive position -- he was capable of blocking Palpatine's lightning, but he was also pinned against the wall for the duration of their scuffle. I do not at all see how that suggests parity between them, especially when you factor in the final pages of the issue. Now if Vader had made any legitimate forward progress towards Palpatine, then sure, I'd probably agree with you... But he didn't. He needed a distraction. /shrug
As I mentioned earlier: even IF Vader is 'close to' Palpatine's level now, Palpatine is still >... Which isn't a knock against Vader; Palpatine is just an entirely different animal.
I’d say he gave a shit considering how desperate he appeared when he ordered Vader’s tie fighter shot down at the beginning of the issue. It was pretty clear that he was taking this seriously. And despite his best efforts, he was unable to stop Vader or even really assert his dominance over his apprentice. He was only able to stop the spread after Vader succeeded in releasing it. And he only manipulated Vader into submission. He wasn’t able to actually beat him like he has in the past.
Nov 10th, 2023 03:17 PM
