Chaos Theory.

Whats your view on Chaos theory? Do you think it's a sound theory? And for those of you who don't know what chaos theory is:

Look it up. I'm to lazy to describe it.

Chaos theory doesn't truly propose that there's no order to things. But rather, things are beyond our ability to predict; however, there is an underlying order to all things.

But then, I'm kind of behind on my knowledge of the theory, so that may be off a bit.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Chaos theory doesn't truly propose that there's no order to things. But rather, things are beyond our ability to predict; however, there is an underlying order to all things.

That's what so interesting about "chaos" theory: there appears to be order "underneath" apparent chaos. It's key to understanding, for example, the Butterfly Effect.

crappy Ashton Kutcher movies?

ok......I just felt like posting but didn't have anything to contribute.....sorry about that.

Ok how about "Is there organized Chaos?"

Originally posted by Mindship
That's what so interesting about "chaos" theory: there appears to be order "underneath" apparent chaos. It's key to understanding, for example, the Butterfly Effect.

Yep. The butterfly flaps its wings, rain in Peking.

It's an interesting theory. Do you think it's hard determinist or indeterminist though?

We build a house. We think we have made order out of chaos. Years go by and the house falls to ruin, we think order has gone away and chaos has returned. However, chaos is not disorder, it is a higher order. So when the house falls down the material becomes chaotic in its relationship to its self. The house has gone from order to more order. This contradicts the concept that order moves to disorder.

Yes, I agree that it's a natural order. Or to the laymen, a natural process, by which things break down and recycle into the ecosystem.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, I agree that it's a natural order. Or to the laymen, a natural process, by which things break down and recycle into the ecosystem.

That is not what I mean. The boards nailed to the wall took energy to go from sitting in a pile to being on the wall. So, there is more order to the boards on the wall, then those in the pile. However, when they fall off the wall they do not become less ordered, but become chaotic.

Yes, but there's still a sense of order behind the deterioration. We as human beings would not quite see the order in a ruined house but it's still there.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yes, but there's still a sense of order behind the deterioration. We as human beings would not quite see the order in a ruined house but it's still there.

Yes, but it is a higher form of order.

Not manmade, but universal, yes.

It's hard to say what "order" might ultimately be--outside of what humans think it means--because we don't know the Metaprinciple to the universe (self-organization?). The current paradigm suggests there is one...otherwise physicist are wasting their time trying to unify everything.

Mysticism would say the metaprinciple is self-organization, leading to higher levels of consciousness, culminating in (what else) "God."

But even w/o bringing in all that stuff, self-organization implies (at least in part) finding equilibrium among the myriad forces.

I don't know. If I did, I'd have a Nobel Prize on my mantle, and hell, I don't even have a mantle.

I do, but it's a fake one. We have a little fake fireplace with a mantel on top. You should get one.

Originally posted by Mindship
It's hard to say what "order" might ultimately be--outside of what humans think it means--because we don't know the Metaprinciple to the universe (self-organization?). The current paradigm suggests there is one...otherwise physicist are wasting their time trying to unify everything.

Mysticism would say the metaprinciple is self-organization, leading to higher levels of consciousness, culminating in (what else) "God."

But even w/o bringing in all that stuff, self-organization implies (at least in part) finding equilibrium among the myriad forces.

I don't know. If I did, I'd have a Nobel Prize on my mantle, and hell, I don't even have a mantle.

I'm sure if you got a Nobel Prize, a mantle would come with it.

Well, chaos theory deals with the randomness of a system that happens when its initial conditions are not well know(they can´t be perfectly determined). So a model that you create to predict something will be less and less precise, and will give you totally arbitrary answers when you try to make predictions for very distant moments in time.

Chaos theory also deal with the propagation of errors, and little changes in the initial state of a system that could lead to big(and unpredictable) results in the future. Thats what the "butterfly effect" is about. Little changes in a system will lead to little changes in a system, but for very long periods of time, small changes can totally change the state of a system. For example, the equation y =xt (where t is time), when x=1 will give you :

y=1, if t=1 and y=100000 if t=100000

but just a small change in x, like x= 1.001 will give you:

y=1.01, if t=1 and y=101000 if t=100000

When t=1 the two values for y(1 and 1.01) are not very different, so the system is basically the same. With the evolution of the system the difference increases to about 1000, what means that precision decreases, and that little changes in initial conditions can have significant effects in a system for very distant moments in time.

Originally posted by Janus Marius
Yep. The butterfly flaps its wings, rain in Peking.

It's an interesting theory. Do you think it's hard determinist or indeterminist though?

ugh no offense to u at all.
i just cant stand things like that, on this planet it is always raining, there are always butterflies,

there are always toe nail clippings and children being born: now when ppl clip their toe nails, does this mean that a baby is born?

see its jsut illogical ... wait.... illogical+chaos=chaos theory+order.

now im mad....

OK OK i figured it out... the chaos theory is that it itself (the theory) creates the chaos which is only to be subsequently ordered into a system: therefore the chaos theory's (chaos) is actually order indisguise.

kk im gonna go lay down now that one took a lot outa me lol 🤣 💃