Batgirl (the new one, i.e Cassandra Cain) is so far ahead of Nightwind in hand to hand combat that this is not even a fair fight. Nightwing wouldn't even be able to HIT HER ONCE! The new batgirl is one of DC's premier martial artists.
Batgirl takes this blindfolded. Literally.
Whoever told you Nightwing and Batgirl were evenly matched either did not know what they were talking about, or they outright lied to you.
How did Batgirl get so good hand to hand?
Well, let's see. Since childhood she was trained by Cain to be the perfect assassin, and thus versed in all forms of combat. She was then passed along for a while to the League of Assassins for more training. Add to that her ability to read a person, which basically gives her what is analogous to compbat telepathy (not actual telepathy, but acts like it) where she can 'read' a person's body like it was an open book.
Then add to this that she has stood up to Shiva, and went ahead to beat her.
Oh, add the whole snatching shurikens out of the air, dodging bullets at point blank range, and the CIA (in Knight ALone) confusing her for a metahuman because of her speed and strength (they thought she was metahuman due to her speed being 4 times faster than human baseline, and strength 2 times stronger than human baseline ....but all that was from training). Even Batman has confessed that she is beyond him in combat.
You (as well as the guy who started this thread) must be confusing the current Batgirl Cassandra Cain with the older one (the red head) Barbara Gordon, the current Oracle.
Matching the current Batgirl against NightWing would be tantamount to murder. The chances of Nightwing winning (barring cosmic shifts, tectonic plate upheavals, or the nigh Apocalypse) are ABSOLUTELY ZERO!
Actually the only people in DC earth who can give Batgirl problems are as follows (normal people ....and I don't think Karate Kid is really normal thus I am excluding himsince he can do feats that even Superman would have problems replicating)
The people are:
1) Lady Shiva
2) Richard Dragon.
3) Connor Hawke (the current Green Arrow, and the current Silver Monkey, which is a top echelon of martial artist in the Monkey Cult, which Hawke won due to his skill. He was also invited, along with Richard Dragon, to participate in death matches against the best the world had to offer, with the winner receiving the 'honor' of fighting to the death against Lady Shiva)
4) I have to put Batman.
The above 4 are the only truly 'normal' people on DC that could give Batgirl some pause, and of the four only the first 2 would have a real chance of winning. Batgirl may have 'beaten' Shiva, but it was more of a draw; and Shiva might have killed R.Dragon (the classic fingers through the brain kill technique), but Richard almost killed Shiva in exactly the same way before he was interrupted by Shiva's guards (this was in the Richard Dragon mini-series). Thus one could say Batgirl, Shiva, and Richard Dragon are more or less equal; and depending on the day any of them could win.
Connow Hawke has a slight chance, but not too big. He once faced Shiva, and although he did not come close to winning he did not die. But in actuality his chances of beating Shiva, BGirl or Dragon are slim at best.
Batman couldn't do it if he resorted to pure hand to hand. He once tried to hit Batgirl during training (once she got her 'body reading' ability back), and couldn't even touch her even though he was trying his best.
As for Nightwing.
Well, in this list he is a non-starter.
Honestly in H2H I'd give him a zero. He literally has no chance.
After all, how do you beat someone who is by FAR better trained than you are, better skilled than you are (to the point that where you have to evade bullets she merely walks between them), is far faster than you are, and was brought up as a killing machine since childhood?
Oh, and she can also read you and know what moves you are going to do BEFORE you do them!
Last edited by spetznaz on Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:03 PM
What surprised me more in the last Dragon/Shiva fight was essentially two things.
He had Shiva down quickier than Cassie did. OTOH he knows her alot better.
And Dragon also knows the leopard blow. That was damn neat.
Spetznaz you also missed one in your list: Bronze Tiger. I place him above Connor -at least-. For those who think Batman is at least better than this guy?
whoa calm down i told him that........I don't wanna look bad......
Sorry Will but you already have by admitting to it. I wasn't going to mension that you told me they were on the same level because I thought that would be mean. Oh well better coming from you than from me.
I wanted to include the Bronze Tiger but didn't know where he stacked compared to the rest on the list. Based on his (Bronze Tiger's) showing where he, Dragon and NightWing kicked the behinds of those League of Assassins dudes, shows that Tiger is definitely kick-ass (and better than NightWing). And the fact that he was the one who introduced Dragon into the martial arts gives him depth. What i don't know is how he currently stacks up against the others (who are at their prime in age).
And I agree when it comes to Connor. Hawke is sweet.
And yes, Richard Dragon kicked butt in that mini-series. He actually won the fight in my opinion, since he had Shiva down and was prepared to deliver the Leopard Blow by driving his fingers through her skull. He had the fight in the bag .....but then Shiva's guards tackled him and they had to restart the fight (in which case Shiva got mad-furious and killed Dragon by using the Leopard Blow).
That was cool.
"I wanted to include the Bronze Tiger but didn't know where he stacked compared to the rest on the list"
I place him as below Dragon/Shiva. Right now probably Cassie can be better, but i wouldnt place many bets on it, since pre crisis he has that place going for him.
Honestly there is no way to know right now, Dragon/Shiva/Tiger/Connor and Cassie are what the top martial arts tier are all about. I just tend to go by his rep, and experience over the two youngest. He also gave a good fight against Dragon (Dragon #1), easily stalemated Bats in a Suicide Squade/JL kind of match and won another solo match against him. So hes surely up there.
And yup. Dragon had her pinned and the fight pretty much where he wanted to.
Last edited by olympian on Oct 12th, 2005 at 07:53 PM
Gender: Unspecified Location: With Cinderella and the 9 Dwarves
Hmm it's a tough call....Batgirl is a better fighter..but Nightwing is more expierienced and can use the gadgets more properly...I might go way out here but I believe he's stronger and at least as fast.......so I'd say .....Batgirl....sorry she beat Shiva Nightwsing can not do that...he's still the better heroe but a fight won't end good for him....
Although..what the **** is up with Batman beating Shiva with one blow...that'S jsut wrong....
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Oct 12th, 2005 08:57 AM
