Minus story driven plot devices, what can the Fantastic 4 do to take Apocalypse out? They don't have a telepath, and they don't have a matter manipulator or high level energy/polarity manipulator. Sue's invisifields could be placed inside of him, but Apoc can teleport and become intangible, so that's kinda nullified. The brute strength of Thing is of no consequence, Apoc would crush him h2h. Johnny's Nova blast is of no consequence to someone who can control his density and substance, and Mr. Fantastic isn't even a guarantee to beat Apoc in a stretching contest, let alone a fight.
Powers vs. Powers, I'm taking Apoc. He'd have the biggest problem taking Sue out, but she will eventually tire and he can take her.
With prep, I'd take the Fantastic 4 if read knows what Apoc's weaknesses are. The catch is that if Apoc also gets prep, he could use it to shore up his defenses and absolve his weaknesses, and thereby negate Reed's efforts, save for an Ultimate Nullifier or something of an extreme degree.
Purely powers? the F4 using raw power could ring out nearly any earth based foe. If u are simply asking "who has higher power ratings? Apoc or F4?" Thats not a vs situation, just a comparison of powers...like two kids looking at the backs of trading cards...How about we have a grown up debate? Look at how the F4 handle their routine opponents who vastly out power them...Anihilus terribly trashes the F4 on paper...he's even gone to Asgard and beaten the hell out of Thor and the other gods...it took Odin himself to kick him out. Yet against the team work and strategy of the F4 he's gone down multiple times. How about Paibok? Paibok killed an intelligent Drax the Destroyer in one move in Drax's own comic...yet the the Thing's beaten him and Human torch beat him, Lyga, and Devos the Destroyer all at the same time! Of course Apoc is highly resilient and deadly...but so are the F4. The F4 could immediately destroy the environment and even if they didnt kill Apoc, he would temporarily be out of the picture.
When considering a vs match everyone wants to take away their biggest weapons: teamwork, intelligence, and skill, while simultaneously downgrading their powers.
In this case its assumed Apoc has full use of his intelligence and strategy...without using those how would he mount an offense against anyone?
In a vs match all things should be considered, otherwise the individuals are out of character...Thats how Doom fights the F4, he tries to seperate them, take away their resources, and leave them vulnerable, yet they always find a way to empower themselves...the F4 are never without resources or "caught with their pants down", to put them in that situation is to take them out of character.
U know damn well if Apoc showed up in next month's issue of F4 he would give the F4 a decent fight, but they would probably beat him in one issue.
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if he showed up would the ff beat him? probably -- after all, realistically, marvel isn't gonna have apoc KILL the ff.
however, in this situation, we are trying to create an environment OUTSIDE the norm of comicbooks, where their inherent powers (and i'll readily admit one of their abilities is teamwork and planning) are what we base a win on. your argument consists of -- they are the ff and will find a way because they have beaten other powerful foes. BUT, for them to do so requires in-depth story.
this is unlike the xmen scenario because here apoc is (i think) more powerful than any of them individually. to say the ff will win 'because they work better together', isn't much of an argument in this particular scenario because 'working together' is a difficult thing to envision and can be used in any situation (no offense intended) WITHOUT you're having to create a scenario where you SHOW it as possible. you might say they could beat odin 'by working together'. and it might even be possible, but not without elaborate story behind it. you can use that argument in a comic book and be right. here however, they are in an impregnable ring, no outside tech available to them -- only their brains and powers against a very formidable foe. PLEASE: paint me a scenario that ILLUSTRATES the kind of plan/teamwork they could use that would get them a victory, wyn. believe me, i'd LOVE to hear a logical scenario. i friggin' HATE apocalypse . . .
The Thing comment didnt bother me at all...Thing would only be a distraction to Apoc but still a very effective one.
Apoc is nothing "new" to the F4, remember they were the first heroes to encounter him when they went to ancient Egypt and fought Rama-Tut(Kang).
The F4 have beaten Celestials on at least three occasions I can think of. I doubt Apoc's Celestial tech and enhanced physiology would dumbfound Mister Fantastic. He could, if he hasnt already, find a method to shut down his physiology. Reed isnt like his dad Nathaniel who keeps more tech/weapons/gadgets on him than Doom...but he does hide more stuff on him than u think...his costume itself is a functioning supercomputer and linked to the resources of his lab. He could theoretically interface with Apoc's own cyber integrated physiology.
Torch has two options against him, fight him straight up with a focused nova blast that would vaporize anything material into sub atomic particles...Apoc's powers are based on his molecular structure...destroy his atoms and thus destroy his molecular structure where the information of his powers are stored genetically; he could also absorb the ambient heat energy away from him...even if Apoc is highly resistent to cold, his shape shifting and chemical reactions will be limited or halted (did this to Graviton when he beat him...IMO Graviton>Apoc). Additionally, if Torch's focused Nova blast has shot through the Earth, heated its core and caused the planet to expand, I think that attack would at least phase Apoc if not wipe him from the Earth.
Invisible Woman can make some offense against Apoc...even if she physically damages Apoc's body with her field, he can always shunt more matter to his body from his extradimnsional source. She could however seperate his body apart and see where the source is, then limit that source to a finite volume. Although it requires a lot of concentration, IW's hyperspace resonation technique is destructive to even Celestial armor...conveniently, Apoc's physiology is based on Celestial tech...she also used it against Hyperstorm's planet conquering army of "Indestructable" Juggernauts. Finally, Apoc relies on sensor's and although he considers himself above most earthly beings, he is still limited to the same concepts of physical perception...So making his body or sensory organs invisible or removing his perception of the EM spectrum, Apoc would have to rely on his telepathic and astral senses, making it harder for him to make an offense.
Trying to physically knock or push Apoc out of the fight environment is useless considering he is one of the best teleporters around...below Genis-Vel, Lockjaw, and Pip but above Nightcralwer and Gateway.
Those are the options I think the F4 have against him...most people assume the F4 r just going to try to punch him and hit him with invisible spheres and fireballs
Apocalyspe would slaughter FF it would be like fighting Gladiator but way smarter He is damn near Indestructible and he can grow in mass and on the ground he is just as quick as Gladiator metahuman reflexes and Agility
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Nov 1st, 2005 09:44 PM
