In terms of raw mystical power, they're close, with Circe having the edge (assuming neither has outside aid/amps); however, Karnilla has a significant physical advantage over Circe, and with PIS/CIS off, she could win the same way Loki or Enchantress could, by using her powers to attempt to mitigate Circe's powers, and then simply beat on her.
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I can see Loki taking wins against Circe, but Enchantress?
CIS off and PIS off would put Circe at her fullest potential, and her fullest potential had her punking the efforts of several skyfather level gods. I don't see her putting Circe's defenses down in a realistic scenario.
No, actually she doesn't; except for usurping Diana's power, Circe's instances of physical prowess are the result of her using her magic to amp herself, which is something Karnilla could potentially do, as well. So that is a wash. Circe has a small degree of superhuman durability and endurance, but nothing compared to typical Asgardian prowess. It's one of the main balance points between Diana and Circe: Circe has the *magical* power of a goddess, but Diana has the *physical* power, which is why several stories involving the two of them over the past 25 years have revolved around Circe trying to either neutralize or usurp WW's abilities.
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The thing to keep in mind is that Diana/Circe's relationship is a problematic one, metaphysically speaking; neither truly wants to kill the other. Circe has had numerous instances where she could have killed Diana legitimately, and vice-versa, but they don't, for both personal and metaphysical reasons (as they are both aspects of the Triat-Goddess).
In a battle with Loki, Karnilla, or Enchantress, that isn't going to come into play. Literally, one or two solid blows from any of them (as they all are at least Spiderman or better in strength) could easily stun, or even KO, Circe, provided they can find a way to mitigate her magics, even just for a moment (which, granted, isn't a given, but is by no means implausable; Enchantress is only a little behind Karnilla in power, and Loki is nearly as powerful as her, with better "death-cheating" abilities).
Also, CIS/PIS off doesn't mean that the character's in question are operating at *plot-determined* enhancements (such as some of Circe's stories); Circe doesn't *routinely* go around punking gods -- those were situational circumstances. Cross-example: Hulk's strength increasing to scary levels, or Silver Surfer amping his abilities via Power Cosmic, would be applicable, as they are well designated within their powersets. Circe has the magical power of a goddess, but only in certain cases/under certain circumstances has she punked gods to such a degree. At her own, personal peak, she can give Karnilla a clear run for her money, and edges her, but in an all-out fight, she has to guard herself much moreso than "typical" Asgardian gods would, because she *doesn't* standardly have anywhere near their physical power.
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Oh, trust me: there isn't anything that has happened between Diana and Circe I haven't read, personally, as it was published, since 1983. Circe has a *degree* of durability, and can amp herself magically. But in a non-WW forum fight, that isn't going to go but so far when confronting someone whose magic is in the same general league as her's (which Karnilla's is). Note that I am saying Circe has the edge in magical power, but if this is an all-out fight, it isn't as clear-cut a situation as "who's got da' juice"...
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Circe's taken Diana's blows without being stunned. Look at this scan- takes a boot to the face, *then* armors up with magic and takes another few blows, and Diana wasn't aiming to not-KO there. She's still pretty darn tough.
Also, what is stopping her from amping herself? If Karnilla does enough counterspellage for physical to be the way to go, Circe can just shift her magic to that side and win on greater total power. Having armor like in that scan didn't keep her from blasting with spells too, so she can amp and cast at the same time.
The physicalness of an Asgardian is not enough to be an advantage, win for Circe.
I can see that you aren't reading my posts in context; tone would probably convey where I am going with this, as what *you* posted doesn't contradict anything I am saying. Circe/Diana battles AREN"T the same as this battle would be: Karnilla could amp and cast as well. And at no point did I say Circe couldn't do both. But Karnilla has greater *options* than WW does, and can plausably work magic to mitigate Circe's spells -- she wouldn't have to actually overwhelm them, so much as compromise them, to tweek the playing field. Diana doesn't normally have those options, except situationally, against Circe. Circe edges Karnilla in power, in general, but not do a degree than this would be anywhere near a stomp, nor altogether certain. I say Circe, as well (as I have the other times this topic has been posted/discussed here), but I *also* illustrate how it isn't a slam, and show how Karnilla can make wins happen.
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Because your saying Karnilla has enough options (in comparison to Diana) to take plenty of wins, even though Circe is overall more powerful.
I mean, the only way I see that working out is if Karnilla had a vast amount of options that Circe wasn't capable of having. Which I don't understand to be the truth.
At no point, in any of my posts, did I indicate that Karnilla has more options than Circe (magically), will in any way take plenty of wins, or anything like that. If you go back and re-read my posts, you will see that.
Both you and Q99 seem to not really be reading my posts, but just glancing over them -- I said Circe is more powerful, but it isn't a given that she would stomp Karnilla; Kar has superior physical ability (not that she uses it much, mind you, in regular comics), and in an *all-out* fight, that will be a factor. Now, if the original topic was "Who can Out Witchy-Pooh Who?", then I would say Circe for a comfortable majority; in a fight to the death, with all normal factors taken into account, the margin narrows, as Karnilla isn't going to have the reservations (for whatever reasons) about killing Circe that Diana often does, and in that context Karnilla's physical abilities *do* play a factor, as Circe isn't nearly as strong as she is. Kar can plausably mitigate some of Circe's spells (as Circe will no doubt do in return), and at no point did I say Kar takes a majority. But it is perfectly reasonable to say that she will get some wins, and I explained how.
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It's a different type of battle than Circe vs Diana, but... I don't think Karnilla has the versatility edge, so I'm not sure why you're saying that her options will let her win.
Physical, Circe can be stronger. Magical, I think Circe's at least as versatile too if not in possession of a small edge there. Power wise, she has more omph to pour into either.
I see what you're saying, I'm just saying Circe can make the same adjustments to the new playing field and still has the edge. If Karnilla plays magic on defense to turn it into a physical fight, then Circe amps so Karnilla doesn't have a physical edge, and she may not even have the physical edge even aside from amping. Circe can likewise use her magic to interfere with what Karnilla is doing, just as much, so she can tweak the playing field too.
Whatever Karnilla can do, Circe can do. So where does the advantage for Karnilla come in?
Look, I don't think you're making your argument very clear.
As far as I can tell, your argument is thus:
Karnilla can get wins by using her spellcasting to interfere with Circe's, then take it physical.
Yes? No?
To which I respond, Circe has high physical durability to begin with so a lapse in her mystic defenses for just a moment wouldn't let Karnilla physically take her out, and Karnilla couldn't interfere with Circe amping herself, so that is not a particular hole in Circe's defenses like you said. It could be applied in reverse just as much for that matter. Scans were provided to support this.
If your argument is not that, then what is it? If your argument is that, then what's your sticking point?
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Feb 13th, 2010 10:10 PM
