Spider-Man of course. The current one knows Kung Fu, so maybe it will help him out. But even without the spider sense only a huge amount of PIS is going to save Captain America, since Spider-Man should be able to speedblitz the crap out of Captain America and each single punch would be devastating, if Spider-Man wants to end the fight quickly.
Captain America is just an enhanced human, who is at his peak. He is basically Batman in terms of strenght and that's actually not enough to harm Spider-Man in the long run. Being superior in martial arts does not give you the ability to keep up with Spider-Mans strenght, speed and most importantly: reflexes... That guy is dodging bullets for breakfast, so dodging Captain America shouldn't be an issue.
And their fight during the Civil War was one of these PIS instances, to hype up Captain America even more. Spider-Man would do to Captain America what he did to Kingpin in the prison.
I'm impressed with Spidey's kung fu. A budding student of Shang Chi isn't impressive on it's own -- especially not to Cap -- but a budding student of Shang Chi with Spidey's abilities is dangerous. If he fully utilizes it and dampens his reflexive improvisational style (the one that Cap knows so well), I can see Spidey winning.
Pete, with or without Kung Fu, provided his CIS isn't raging hard. Just too big a physical disparity. Harder fight without Kung Fu, obviously, but same outcome.
This. Cap supporters basically have that one fight. Spidey backers in this thread have pretty much everything else from his feat repertoire.
^ Cap supporters have Cap's entire career and his entire feat repertoire also. If you were surprised that Cap made look Spidey look like a noob in Civil War, then you've surprised me as well. Not in the good way.
1. Spider-Man was holding back, just like always when he fights people who are beneath his physical stats.
2. Spider-Man was holding even more on Captain America, because he respects him. Cap is probably his childhood hero.
3. Spider-Man was holding even more, since he was trying to convince Captain America that Tony is doing the right thing with the registration act.
4. Spider-Man dodged nearly all of Captain America's shield throws.
5. He webbed up Cap's shield to a wall and Cap had to return few hours later, to take his shield again, since he would not be able to break through the webbing.
6. That was not their "only" fight during Civil War.
Take a close look at the last panel of the very first scan. Do you see how Captain America is trying to ambush Spider-Man from behind and how near he is? Didn't do jack to Spider-Man:
I think Cap can put up a good fight against Pete with or without the spider sense and Shang Chi training. I think it is very disingenuous to compare Cap stats and speed to someone like Bats or Kingpin.
Cap is an enhanced human but he is far from just peak.
His Reaction and history shows him with his own impressive speed feats to match any that the spider might have..
Cap has good feats. But how are you accounting for the large degree of difference in speed, strength, and durability? We're talking like 15x in each category, and that's being generous to Cap, saying he's at 1-ton instead of peak human.
Cap had a good showing against Pete, they were portrayed a lot closer to equals than they should be imo. But I also think, even if we allow that feat, that everything else favors SM by a heavy margin. Even Pete's mid-range feats trump Caps best in all of the categories mentioned.
If you want, I'll give you 1-2/10. Cap's a great tactician. But that's generous as hell, imo.
Also, Kung Fu makes it unfair. He's still not going to be cap's MA equal of course, but it basically erases the only real trump card Cap has to play in this fight.
The simple reality is that any discrepancy in speed between Captain America and Spider-man is minute to non existent. If you honestly believe there is a 15 x speed disparity between Spider-man and Cap (or any top tier street) then you are simply lying to yourself or lack adequate knowledge of these characters to know any better. Even allowing for the notion that Spider-man is twice as fast as Captain America is a huge stretch, and only something someone who isn't familiar with the character of Steve Rogers would be able swallow.
Spider-sense or webbing on and I would give Spidy a pretty overwhelming majority, but in these scenario Pete lacks the aptitude to engage Cap in melee and come out on top. Now if the point comes where his martial skills ever became fully developed that could change, but now that he has his Spider-sense back I doubt said skills will ever be referenced again. Sans Spider-sense Cap lights up Peter with pressure points and takes home the belt.
Also Cap is class 2... conservatively.
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Ok, sure, class 2. Still giving Pete around 7x strength, comparable durability, and while we can't quantify speed the same way we can strength, we know for a fact Pete's faster. Scale it down to a more "human" level and it's easier to see the disparity. Someone who can move maybe 1.5x faster than an in-shape human, at 5x strength, and take 2x the punishment. Those are, even by your logic, conservative advantage estimates (I think each would be more for SM). And this person has basic physical prowess but little training. Now put that person against a trained martial artist (base human)...they'd be overwhelmed eventually. That kind of discrepancy isn't something they'd be able to account for in all but the most perfect and/or forgiving fight scenarios.
Also, you're painting away the MA skill in a hypothetical for your own purposes. Do we discount every power of Thor's that goes ignored by 90% of his writers? Until there's an actual retcon, you're just making things up.
Besides, Cap trained Pete briefly as well and he's been at this for years. He is a trained martial artist now, but even before that he wasn't a toddler.
No need for the gifs. I don't mind them, but in context they can be seen as condescending. Let your arguments stand on their own.
It has just been referenced in the last issue. Spider-man wont stop bragging about it lol
The speed difference while clearly is not x15 is still there and is significant. The strength even more so. kung fu/no kung fu doesnt change much. Without PIS and CIS Cap is not taking 1/10 vs the "back in black" Spider.
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IIRC, didn't Spider-Man and Captain America fight 4x over the years, and each time Cap won? Not that I think he should've; dealing with those CA>SM victories has been the biggest shocker to me since I joined KMC.
Personally, I think SM should win, stips or not, especially if he now knows kung-fu ('bout friggin' time he learned some MA). Cap most certainly could win, but I think the odds are not in his favor.
IMO, it's long since time for the Spiderjobbing to stop.
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There were some brief tussles between them but they only really fought once. And his CIS was always in play. He pulls punches when fights thugs and super villains. Steve is his hero, he holds back big time. Superior fighting skills is great, but even Scorpion was too much for Cap because of his superhuman stats. And Scorpion is no Spider-man.
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yeah, spidey for a solid 7-8/10 imo. a true superspeed punching flurry like he's pulled off against the hulk or masterson thor would be too much. even if cap can interfere with it spidey can keep coming back with it. too much strength advantage and enough of a durability and speed advantage make this fight spidey's methinks.
Venom recently knocked out Captain America with one single punch and had to save him afterwards from death. He also said that Captain America should be able to survive a 20 foot fall, because of the Super Soldier Serum.
That places Captain America on the place he is supposed to be when it comes to the level of the people.
While you can consider Captain America a very high street level, because of his feats, guys like Spider-Man are much above street level, yet many people fail to realize that, because the writers like to downgrade Spider-Man, to make him more believable, even though Spider-Man pulled off some crazy stunts in the past, including speedblitzing multiple meta humans ... hi @ Civil War, where Mr. Fantastic was amazed by Spider-Man's speed and skill and then got spectacular-suckerpunched by Spidey.
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Dec 9th, 2011 07:53 PM
