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low feats vs PIS
hrm. this is a topic that i feel like i'm seeing more and more of--or more likely it's always been this way and i'm just noticing it more. we have some NOTABLE employers of this tactic, one of the more frequent users happens to be on vacation....
the question is simple--should low feats, in general--be considered PIS if a character has more than enough quality feats to offset them? iow, should they, by rule, simply be disallowed? i feel like it would save...countless pages and hours of pointless bickering.
i find that in soooo many threads, people get caught up in 'putting down the OTHER guy' as opposed to defending and showcasing YOUR guy. there are literally hundreds of examples of this in the forum, and the 'putting down the other guy strategy', invariably leads to flaming and trolling and kills threads. i KNOW you can think of examples where this has happened. eliminating a lot of low feats wouldn't devolve into powerset battles either. character still counts, but if someone can battle someone in a herald tier for pages and pages, and someone shows that same character battling evenly with a street level guy, seems common sense would dictate the street showing shouldn't count--assuming the character has MORE to support the herald feat.
the forum says AT THE BEST OF THEIR ABILITIES. should that mean everyone should stop with the near-constant low balling of characters, worry more about defending their guy, and should it be more strictly enforced when it does happen?
Depends on a number of factors. Averages should certainly be taken into consideratioj, but so should power sets and internal logic.
No matter how many times Spidey beats a herald, for example, that should be PIS. Same with Batman, and his herald leveling kicks.
On the flip side, you can take a jobber like Rhino and make a case that a lot of his poorer showings should he thrown out.
So yes, I agree all of Supermans lowballing should be ignored, as should Hulks outliers like holding up a mountain range, or anything above the level of a large snake.
That is my unbiased opinion.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
"In character" means ethics and logical character flaws.
Flash forgetting he can outrace a boomerang has no justification other then bad writing.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
But you're always going to get the f*cktards that will ignore 20 consecutive high-end showings from a character, but cling solely to 1 low-end showing(or vice versa) as though it is the gospel. Unless mods start dropping the ban-hammer more frequently, that stupidity is never going to change, unfortunately.
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Last edited by Galan007 on May 29th, 2018 at 10:28 PM
I’ve pointed that out continuously, since i registered here.
As its set, posters will argue/ignore whatever benefits their character/argument best, often times debating the same character differently depending on who they're fighting.
In Rhino's case, that character flaw is that he's actually that stupid. But it's not always stupidity, per se.
A good recent example is when Mangog attacked Asgard. Odinson and Odin started going fisticuffs with Mangog.
Jane shows up, BFRs Mangog. Odin's first words : why didn't we think of that???
It's not that Odin is stupid. But he's a fighter, a brawler. So is Odinson. They've spent literal millennia fighting with their fists and Spears and hammers.
WW would fight like that.
Batman wouldn't. He'd be fighting to cheat, to win, if possible.
I think PIS should start to include high-showings, too.
The forum is boring when there's the same 4-5 cream-of-the-crop feats every time. A herald could right now thundercunt the moon out of orbit with a slap, and the forum would put its fedora and collectively groan "meh, it's not even that impressive, his palm was bruised, and every herald could replicate that". There's absolutely zero perspective, from many posters [and not just obvious trolls]
Or, let's put it this way..
Imagine, right now, Hulk would get a random writer, from a random comic, to move in a nanosecond.
No matter what has happened before that comic, or after that comic, the forum will forever use THAT as gospel, and proof of Hulk's speed.
No matter how many times Spiderman, Wolverine, Daredevil or whomever dances around him.
Well, apply that to every character, and that's the forum.
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Last edited by Philosophía on May 29th, 2018 at 10:33 PM
Best example ever was when Kon-El forgot the sun doesn't affect his powers' against New52 Eradicator, on a past Krypton.
"Not much I can do, with the red sun weakening me."
*Next page*. "Wait a minute.."
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
@Phil
"I think PIS should start to include high-showings, too. "
I thought we already did that. I mean in some cases it should come logically when a character that has no business of hanging with another suddenly wrecks him. That would be a PIS low for the higher tier and a PIS high for the other one.
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“I once had an entire race killed just to listen to the rattling of their dried bones as I waded through them.” —Volrath
Gender: Male Location: Planning to take over the WORLD!
@phil--i agree--all outlier-style feats should be disallowed. i think so long as a feat can be backed by a large number of similar feats, it should be all right. so your hulk example would certainly be tossed (by me at least) since it would so far exceed the norm. it's less average and more....'where does the bulk of evidence lay' if you get what i'm saying? simplifying--someone battles 5 separate heralds for pages and pages, more than holds their own. they show up in some street book and appear to be giving it their all but can't seem to beat the street. too me, that showing should carry little to no weight (again, over simplification, but you get where i'm going, hopefully.)
i just think if we focus more on supporting our guy, than denigrating the opposition, debates would be more fun, and we'd likely learn more about the individual characters as well. maybe.
i fear that galan may be right though. whatever. thought it worth a conversation.
And Carver does both. Sometimes with the same character, in the same thread.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
We need to judge characters based off of their averages. Going off of high end showings makes characters like Superman and Thor skyfather+ and would, by extension, make the weaker characters that do well against them close to (if not outright) herald level. Going off of low end showings makes only the most consistent of characters stay even remotely in their tier while making less consistent characters drop by several tiers. With that said, if a character (let's say rhino) is on enough of a losing streak for long enough, the question becomes one of "how long can we write these off as low showings?".
I'm seriously wondering, how many low showings is it possible to write off as PIS. For example, Spider-Man appears in somewhere close to 10,000 comics. If he faces enemies armed with guns and manages to get shot/grazed/winged/blasted in 45% of those showings, how many can we write off as PIS? Better yet, if tomorrow Superman got wrecked by Wonder woman and for the next 10 years looked inferior to her but is still given the sort of lip service that he always has been, can we really discount all of his showings of outright inferiority?
For Spidey, I'd argue pis, unless an in universe reason is given.
Wonder Woman is harder, because she's strong enough where she can be "as strong as she needs to be", e.g, as powerful as writers want to make her. They could totally make her more powerful then Superman, just like they raised her stock since the crisis.
It would still affect her averages, of course, and one could argue against her based on her overall history. Or if this was CBR, she'd be defined by enough high ends, even if her entire history contradicted it. I mean, that's what happened with Beta Ray Bill post Stormbreaker. Surviving a moon and planet explosion, Galactus's hand clap, and tons of cosmic energy against his naked skin had them arguing Superman can't even hurt him anymore.
An extreme like Deathstroke beating her up in high heels is a better example of clear cut pis that SHOULD be tossed out.
__________________ What CDTM believes;
Never let anyone else define you. Don't be a jerk just to be a jerk, but if you are expressing your true inner feelings and beliefs, or at least trying to express that inner child, and everyone gets pissed off about it, never NEVER apologize for it. Let them think what they want, let them define you in their narrow little minds while they suppress every last piece of them just to keep a friend that never liked them for themselves in the first place.
I always try and find averages and see if there's a reason this low feat happened before declaring pis. Take everything into consideration before saying "Hey doggy, this doesn't add up".
I try to stay away from incredibly high feats unless the question directly relates to if one has done or done similar things to this high feat.
And if a character has a long streak of losses or suddenly got more powerful, I usually seperate those characters into unofficial powerups or power downs.
An example of all 3 in order:
Take Bendis Thanos for example. Every appearance he makes he gains a new low feat, and by low feat, I mean if it wasn't for other Bendis appearances, it would be his lowest feat. However, not being one to just hand wave things away, you look at the feats.
In one of them he was weakened by a faux Cosmic Cube. In one he was weakened by a wormhole and possibly had the God Cancer. The other two showings? Not so great. One was wildly inconsistent for every character involved, and the other was mostly off panel but all the way gay.
So you weigh these feats. They still exist but enough showings can make them weigh less. Another would be inclined to just say pis and I wouldn't disagree.
Number 2.
Leon and I (Bran) had a conversation about Surfer slapping away Ego and throwing Suns/large sunballs. These normally wouldn't be something I would just toss like dice in a thread and look around at all the faces and go "Beat this you smelly cock suckers" with a carver9 sharp smirk on my face. However, I would discuss them, as they became pertinent to the conversation. All I wanted to say is these feats do exist and are canon. However, that again doesn't mean I'd use them in a serious manner unless the thread became about that.
If Surfer overpowered Galactus tomorrow, I would only bring that up against Thor fans, people asking if anyone has killed a Galactus level being, or if someone was directly challenging me to find high feats. Maybe some more, but it wouldn't be something I would solely use to say he beats Hulk for example.
Number 3.
Leon made this thread because of Gamora. He said "By Golly I don't enjoy you bringing up these... these... 'downward examples' to say your blasted character wins. Don't sully my name with your crud Mr Slashes!"
I've also had a Gamora exchange with Stoic recently. Here's where my point comes in hand:
Gamora simply isn't written up to the standards that Annihilation and Danbett set for her. Leon doesn't like her low feats brought up when all he wants is to use Annihilation Gamora. The issue is, is that her low feats are in abundance. So much so that she only mimics Gamora's appearance and nothing more. As I've said to Stoic, she has over 200 appearances since DnA left. She's had over 150 appearances before that. More than half of her appearances are of a shitty form, that's a lot to rule out.
A simple solution, and one we see often on the forum, is to seperate this.
Pre Annihilation Gamora would be everything from just before her tie ins to Annihilation.
Annihilation would be that, and DnA. It would also include the good of pre Annihilation.
Bendis Gamora would be the 200 appearances afterwards.
Nice and tidy. Now you could argue that you could pick and choose from highlights of Bendis Gamora for Annihilation Gamora since let's be honest, she's shit. But trying to mash them all together without addressing this creates issues, issues that led to Leon creating this thread. As always, there is usually a simple solution, you just have to open your brown eye a little.
Same with Carol. She has gotten more powerful. Unofficially (just like Gamora has gotten unofficially weaker since she should be the same level). Issue with her, is that she should be privy to all her prior feats. So without addressing her "upgrade", it creates issues when someone cums in and says she loses because she's in canon the same level as many of her oopsies.
But that's just how I see things. I don't speak for everyone, I'm just giving my two pesos.
I think the reason there's so much confusion is because people try to lump all poor writing under the heading "PIS" simply because that category is supposed to get outright tossed from discussions(which has obvious appeal when it benefits your guy). But in KMCs days of yore....
PIS= Characters "forgetting" powers for no apparent logical reasoning. Examples are things like GL not trying to drain or disrupt the energy of an energy based being or Surfer being unable to escape the grip of a brick even though he can phase and teleport. Frequency of occurrence has no bearing on true PIS. In other words responding to an argument about a characters abilities with "Well he didn't do it here against this other guy" is attempting to use PIS to support your argument.
SMvF= One character being portrayed as much more powerful than normal for no apparent logical reason. This is/was based on the frequency of such a display relative to the overall number of applicable appearances of the character. See even though Spider-Man frequently seems to be able to hurt or at least knock around herald level guys, he has far more instances of having a tough time hurting people less durable therefore him KOing Firelord isn't valid. On the other hand, even though Batman being able to sneak up on Superman seems to be some of the most ridiculous writing ever, the vast majority of the time Batman can sneak up on pretty much anyone he wants regardless of logic so him sneaking up on Supes IS a valid feat for Bats and doesn't reflect poorly on Supes's ability to detect most stealthy characters. Batman basically has "super stealth" as an unofficial power.
General High and Low showings= Grey area. Kinda like trying to define porn, can't put it into words but you know it when you see it. Both get factored into the average but the extremes in either direction hold less weight than the mean unless your also taking the characters "at their best" like we also used to do.
Don't get me wrong, these things are all very subjective and there's a lot of overlap between them but debates would prob be a lot "cleaner" if if people went back to trying to recognizing those distinctions.
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Last edited by darthgoober on May 30th, 2018 at 03:10 AM
I'm not solely talking about characters combat feats. After all, a character's high showing is another character's low showing, if they're split by several tiers. And even then, it gets murky. I mean, we have the obvious PIS examples (Batman vs Justice League, where his kicks make them disappear off the page), but we also have other ones (say...Cap vs Namor. Or Batman vs Lobo) which can, have and will be used anytime you put Cap vs Aquaman, for example. In a forum fight, one shot from Aquaman should kill Cap [rolling with the punches meme notwithstanding]
Or, to put it another way, we know [or better yet...most of us do] that Thor is simply on street leveler speed. Imagine Hulk's situation, applied to Thor. Do you think celey, rage etc. wouldn't drive that into the ground? Do you remember ODG desperately using one showing [Phoenix blast] to show that Thor has, and I mean this in the literal sense, "instant speed"? I do.
Remember when Superman pulverized that Shadow Moon but was KO? Remember when Cho almost hit the moon out of orbit? Remember when Surfer surfed the moon to hit Galactus? These are crazy feats but...they're not 'their best' so they don't get mentioned. Even worse, they get mentioned as 'that's pretty weak, they couldn't even do that casually because my fav character, in a completely different storyline under a different writer did this, that's better' which is goddamn insane.
We don't go by how characters' capabilities are normally portrayed. And I don't mean "they forget they have speed" or "they forget they can do more than just hit with the hammer". Those are obviously PIS, but as in actual, consistent 'level' they operate at in their attributes. The best feat [or..the best 3-5 feats] is their level. Which makes literally any other feat below that level as "meh", making any discussion in the forum as irrelevant.
That would also imply reasonable discussion. But we all get caught in 'our side', and it all goes downhill from there.
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Last edited by Philosophía on May 30th, 2018 at 10:03 AM
That's been an issue on the forum for as long as I can remember, and has always implied insecurity on the part of the person doing it, imo.
No they aren't. They actually work in concert, so if you'd like clarification, I can provide it.
In all seriousness, if we did that, the forum would be a ghost-town bar the off-topic thread. There just aren't enough reasonable posters around anymore that intersect with other reasonable posters when it comes to the same characters and will yet disagree about them.
==
And yes, it is supposed to include High feats too. The problem is that we half-expected people to figure that out on their own and act sensibly, but alas...
So do we go by average showings or high showings? Its impossible to debate which one is the acceptable ft. Example, let's say if someone post a scan of Thing punching the Hulk drawing blood as an effect and I post a scan of the entire Avengers punching Hulk (including people who are stronger than Thing) and they cant even budge him, let alone scar him. Which one would be considered a more solid evidence of Hulks durability?
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May 29th, 2018 10:09 PM
