Funky story.
For those that dont want to bother clicking: Submerged car. Dead mother. Live child. Mysterious voice. Check car. Find both.
As i believe in ghosts (hence the after life, hence the religion forum), i'm glad the rescuers didnt goad/macho themselves into believing they heard nothing.
Pretty obvious question: whats your stance on ghosts, especially if you're religious?
Seventh Day Adventists and various other Christian groups posit that what we call ghosts are actually angels and demons.
They use the following as one of their reference scriptures:
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5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
Much though I'd like to believe some aspect of friends and loved ones survive for the present, I'm inclined to agree with the above.
This is not to say that there WON'T be a day when friends and loved ones can be seen again. Practically the whole of Christianity is based on the belief that following Jesus Christ will result in resurrection and (hopefully) reuniting with those we loved in the present life.
Pretty sure your take on the supernatural would make for interesting conversation. How did you decide on Asatru, for instance?
What do they believe happens to people who die, and what is their stance on ghosts?
There are a lot of things not understood, left unexplained and, for good or bad, left unsaid. I respect the officers and firefighters decision not to speak to ABC. It's very unfortunate that the toddler will grow up without his/her mother but it's awesome that he/she survived, to hopefully live a good life.
As far as spirits or ghosts, I dunno. Just be a decent person and let everything else sort itself out later.
Also, don't let your family pick up the tab for your burial. That's just being a selfish d-bag.
__________________ Listen, boy. Have you ever had your scrotum pulled off by a mountain goat and seen him sell it on eBay a day later?
I'm not unique, in being a "non white" (univetsalist) Asatru.
As for ghosts, the draugr/revenats, they're tied into burial practices, a lot like other religions.
As i give credence to all religions i have no problem believing in people coming back in different ways for different reasons.
There are many accounts of ghostly sightings in christian tradition, in the New Testament the Apostles mistake Jesus with a Ghost several times (even when he was alive, lol) and the reply was never anything categorically denying or implying Ghosts. Then there is the transfiguration where two clearly dead prophets are manifested into physical experience (this is complex because we are to understand that the Apostles in a place full of Grace and not that the dead appeared on Earth, I think). At the very least, I doesn't seem the kind of thing to be openly dismissed.
However, religious leaders will side with caution in this kind of experience, simply because any supernatural manifestation can easily stray people from faith. When suffering, some people would rather see their dead relatives than to care about Jesus or other trascendant beings expressing their love or gratitute to them. Since it's risky business and the believers don't win anything by trusting into manifestations from the dead, any official stance on this is unlikely.
Personally I don't believe in Ghosts. If something similar to what we call spirits exist, good for them, but my conception of the world doesn't need to accept them or refuse them. An example such as the one presented in the article could be explained by two timelines overlapping of sorts, communication from the past towards the future or simply experiencing a moment of the universe in which we didn't physically exist. Not saying that's the case though, it's just that the idea of ghosts has no allure to me.
My issue with the demon/angel explanation is that you can see it as a cop out. You explain it as a demon if it hurts faith and as an angel if it helps it. As I mentioned it earlier, supernatural events only matter to religious authorities when they affect faith itself. In this case, it's a bit like evaluating after the fact and not caring about the actual phenomena.
Ghosts are most certainly not the same thing as angels or demons. Not even close. Ghosts are supposed to be the spirits of dead people while angels and demons are immortal spirit beings that have always been spirits since the time they were created. Of course, God didn't "create" demons. Demons are the fallen angels who rebelled against God. ..To suggest that angels/demons and ghosts are the same thing is ridiculous.
For anyone who has read the Bible and realizes that the Bible is , in fact, the inspired Word of God, ghosts do not exist. And I'm one of those people. I don't know exactly where it is in the Bible but it states clearly "The dead know nothing".
Everyone who has died, with an extremely few exceptions, have remained dead since they died and will stay that way until sometime in the very near future when Christ returns. Bible states: "The dead in Christ will rise first". Meaning those who were saved will rise from their graves in spirit form and rule with Christ over a renewed earth (Heaven on Earth) for a thousand years. After which time, those who were not saved will be judged for their sins.
They will not burn for eternity though. That's a misconception. They will be thrown into the lake of fire and they will be burned-up until there is absolutely nothing left. Bible states: "For the wages of sin is death". Not eternal torture like so many are deceived into believing. It's everlasting punishment (eternal death) not "everlasting punishing" (torture).
__________________ Darwin's theory of evolution is the great white elephant of contemporary thought. It is large, completely useless, and the object of superstitious awe.-Dr. David Berlinski, Philosophy
Most people believe Evolution not because they themselves are dumb, but cause they trust the "experts" who are feeding them evolutionary fast food, and so they don't bother questioning whether or not it's true.
Last edited by Star428 on Mar 12th, 2015 at 11:48 AM
The explanation you gave here is so nearly exactly what Seventh Day Adventists espouse that I wonder if you yourself are one.
Especially given what is contained in your last paragraph; a doctrine I've heard VERY few groups outside of the Adventists express.
The "dead know nothing" phrase comes from Ecclesiastes Chapter 9 Verse 5.
I found it Googling that phrase the other day.
The blue link in my first message in this thread takes you to that page on Bible Gateway.
Here's the full chapter with the relevant section bolded:
Ecclesiastes 9 Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
9 For all this I considered in my heart even to declare all this, that the righteous, and the wise, and their works, are in the hand of God: no man knoweth either love or hatred by all that is before them. 2 All things come alike to all: there is one event to the righteous, and to the wicked; to the good and to the clean, and to the unclean; to him that sacrificeth, and to him that sacrificeth not: as is the good, so is the sinner; and he that sweareth, as he that feareth an oath. 3 This is an evil among all things that are done under the sun, that there is one event unto all: yea, also the heart of the sons of men is full of evil, and madness is in their heart while they live, and after that they go to the dead.
4 For to him that is joined to all the living there is hope: for a living dog is better than a dead lion. 5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.
7 Go thy way, eat thy bread with joy, and drink thy wine with a merry heart; for God now accepteth thy works. 8 Let thy garments be always white; and let thy head lack no ointment. 9 Live joyfully with the wife whom thou lovest all the days of the life of thy vanity, which he hath given thee under the sun, all the days of thy vanity: for that is thy portion in this life, and in thy labour which thou takest under the sun. 10 Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.
11 I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favour to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all. 12 For man also knoweth not his time: as the fishes that are taken in an evil net, and as the birds that are caught in the snare; so are the sons of men snared in an evil time, when it falleth suddenly upon them.
13 This wisdom have I seen also under the sun, and it seemed great unto me: 14 there was a little city, and few men within it; and there came a great king against it, and besieged it, and built great bulwarks against it: 15 now there was found in it a poor wise man, and he by his wisdom delivered the city; yet no man remembered that same poor man. 16 Then said I, Wisdom is better than strength: nevertheless the poor man’s wisdom is despised, and his words are not heard. 17 The words of wise men are heard in quiet more than the cry of him that ruleth among fools. 18 Wisdom is better than weapons of war: but one sinner destroyeth much good.
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Authorized (King James) Version (AKJV)
KJV reproduced by permission of Cambridge University Press, the Crown’s patentee in the UK.
Not sure if this part of the message was directed at me or not.
If it was, I should probably clarify that I do NOT believe that people become angels like, say, Clarence in that Christmas Special "It's a Wonderful Life".
On the other hand, I'm more inclined than not to say that angels, speaking primarily of fallen angels now, have the power to disguise themselves as what we think of when we talk of ghosts. Which, again, is nearly exactly the stance of the Seventh Day Adventist church, derived from precisely the premise you outlined in the rest of your message, and that is that the dead remain so until resurrection by God and/or judgement.
A ghost is the on-going self-process of a deceased person, and thus is no longer attached to, or identifies with, ordinary matter. Itself reduced by the death event to focusing on only the most emotionally charged aspects of that dead person's psyche, the self-process repeatedly fabricates a minimized simulacrum of that person -- with virtual particles -- addressing (or trying to address) that emotional charge (ie, the "unfinished business" that's keeping it earthbound).
That said: I've yet to experience anything, Anything, that would even remotely suggest a ghostly encounter. However, I have gotten very good at being in a dark place with others and suddenly exclaiming, "What was that? Did you hear that?" and "Over there - I think I saw something..."
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