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Tir McDohl (Suikoden) VS Link (The Legend of Zelda)
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Remi8193
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Tir McDohl (Suikoden) VS Link (The Legend of Zelda)

Who Would Win?

Old Post Jul 17th, 2008 10:17 PM
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Blight
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Tir Wins, hands down. Link has No defense against the Soul Eater.


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Old Post May 28th, 2012 01:09 AM
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CosmicComet
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The Master Sword has something to say against that, surely.


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Old Post May 28th, 2012 02:35 AM
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ScreamPaste
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I hate you so much.

I've never heard of this character. So I got curious, tried to sate my curiousity via google and learned almost nothing.

What is the soul eater?


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Old Post May 28th, 2012 03:17 AM
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CosmicComet
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it's a rune he has.

does exactly what you think.


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Old Post May 28th, 2012 03:24 AM
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AuraAngel
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
it's a rune he has.

does exactly what you think.


Giggity.


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Old Post May 28th, 2012 03:51 AM
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ScreamPaste
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All right then. I still hate the OP very much.


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Old Post May 28th, 2012 04:07 AM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

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No clue who Tir is, but I remember his verse being full of hypersonic characters with mountain busting spells with human strength and dura.


Guess it'd have to be this Tir guy if he's one of the above unless Link could bring the cqc pain.


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 05:56 PM
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Blight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
The Master Sword has something to say against that, surely.
Yeah I believe it says something like "OH GOD PLEASE DON'T SUCK ME INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnn"

quote: (post)
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
I hate you so much.

I've never heard of this character. So I got curious, tried to sate my curiousity via google and learned almost nothing.

What is the soul eater?
The Soul Eater is a rune that practically breaks the game. It's power does exactly what its description implies.

Deadly Fingertips: Sudden death to 1 enemy (except bosses)
Black Shadow: 300 damage to all enemies
Hell: Sudden death to all enemies (except bosses)
Judgement: 1500 damage to 1 enemy

This isn't limited to people and animals, either. It works on Drones, Machines, etc. Nothing can stand up to it save Bosses, and that's really only a statute limit so the game isn't too easy. Tir Wins.... in a stomp.


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 09:52 PM
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ScreamPaste
Carpe Noctem

Gender: Male
Location: 1/9.7'rd Horseman of the Apocalypse

quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blight
Yeah I believe it says something like "OH GOD PLEASE DON'T SUCK ME INNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNnnnnnnnnnnnnnn"

The Soul Eater is a rune that practically breaks the game. It's power does exactly what its description implies.

Deadly Fingertips: Sudden death to 1 enemy (except bosses)
Black Shadow: 300 damage to all enemies
Hell: Sudden death to all enemies (except bosses)
Judgement: 1500 damage to 1 enemy

This isn't limited to people and animals, either. It works on Drones, Machines, etc. Nothing can stand up to it save Bosses, and that's really only a statute limit so the game isn't too easy. Tir Wins.... in a stomp.
Okay, so does it have any feats that prevent the master sword from telling it to stfu?

Because that doesn't sound like much. no expression Also, depending what Link this is he has an AoE "You are now a ball of goo" spell that works on everything except bosses, or a cape that makes him intangible and invisible that does work on bosses, ect ect. If you want to go by how they function in game.

In truth, there are limits on all of those things and on Soul Eater, so, what's the best actual showing of power it has?


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 10:01 PM
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CosmicComet
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No, it pretty much has no feats that I remember that would outdo Link's divine protection from the Master Sword.

Link wins this fairly handily, as Tir has little else going for him.


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 10:21 PM
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BloodRain
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"hypersonic characters with mountain busting spells"

That Judgement^ being one of the strongest attacks in the verse.


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 10:32 PM
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CosmicComet
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The only one who can possibly be called hypersonic, is Stallion, and mayyyybe the protaganist in the second game.

And Tir is definitely not a mountain buster either. That was between a fight between two ancient rune users or whatever.


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 10:42 PM
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BloodRain
Knight of Retribution

Gender: Male
Location: Midcyru

Wouldn't powerscaling put people of the same rank at the same speed?

Casual mountain busters. Other characters on his level have town level soulfuks and cutting islands in half. Seems all rune users are up there, he should be on par.


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Old Post May 29th, 2012 11:02 PM
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Blight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by ScreamPaste
Okay, so does it have any feats that prevent the master sword from telling it to stfu?

Because that doesn't sound like much. no expression Also, depending what Link this is he has an AoE "You are now a ball of goo" spell that works on everything except bosses, or a cape that makes him intangible and invisible that does work on bosses, ect ect. If you want to go by how they function in game.

In truth, there are limits on all of those things and on Soul Eater, so, what's the best actual showing of power it has?
Aside from Sucking in every single enemy without a problem whatsoever? No. I don't know what Link this is so I can understand your point. That's the biggest problem with Link, though, since he's really only as good as the items he carries. I suppose if he's loaded for bear then it depends what game it's from. So lets go down the list.

Legend of Zelda (Like the OP states)

This would be a horrible stomp in favor of Tir. None of the items I see in Link's arsenal would overcome the power of the Soul Eater.

Zelda 2

Same as Legend of Zelda IMO.

Link's Awakening

I still don't see anything in the arsenal that would counteract the effects of the Soul Eater, nor do I see anything that would beat its range, or that would defeat Tir prior to him summoning Judgement or Hell.

A Link to the Past

The Magic Cape could be a problem here. Though I don't really know whether or not the Soul Eater needs to see Link in order for Soul Sucking to occur (since it's two different styles of playing). The Master Sword isn't even the most powerful sword in this game, so I don't know what all the fuss about is here or why it wouldn't be sucked in with the rest of Link's items (since the Soul Eater isn't evil, it simply is).

Ocarina of Time

He will not be able to play any songs on his Ocarina prior to a Soul Steal (since it's one of the first attacks I use in Suikoden). Din's Fire is a nice Area of Effect attack, but it doesn't have much Range, and we don't know the range of a Soul Sucking from the Soul Eater.

I suppose the Arrows could be a problem here. This is just going with my opinion here but I just don't believe they're enough to truly down Tir. I've been hit multiple times by arrows within game enough to know they don't have much they can do when I get to a certain level. I supposed it's up for debate, though.

I guess that just boils down to Tir takes this IMO

Majora's Mask

Honestly, I never beat this game so there may be something I'm missing, but I don't recall anything that could hold measurable weight in a fight against someone with any true rune, let alone the Soul Eater.

wind waker

Same thing as Ocarina, he can't use the Wind Waker fast enough. And none of the weapons would really do much erm

Twilight Princess

Okay, I haven't played this game so I am going to peruse the items. Please correct me if there is something I miss because this one I'm literally only looking at the items and nothing more.

Magic Armor seems pretty awesome, but I don't think it would respond well to the Soul Steal since it just BFR's and doesn't take away health.

Turning into a wolf would just make a wolf get sucked in, not much to say there.

Slingshot won't do shit.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I haven't seen anything to prove that the Master Sword is much more than a regular sword when in battle with someone who's not inherently evil. So I don't know what the relevance is of this "Divine Protection".


I'm going to go ahead and leave it there. Most of the other ones I haven't played and considering I believe Link would lose in all of those scenario's, then that makes it a victory for Tir. Maybe there are outliers (I'm willing to admit that), but considering most of the games I listed were the Main Games that people know of, I think I've covered most of my general bases. If you want to argue different Link's then I'm open to the suggestion.

quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
No, it pretty much has no feats that I remember that would outdo Link's divine protection from the Master Sword.

Link wins this fairly handily, as Tir has little else going for him.


What divine protection? Explain it please. I'm not saying it doesn't exist its just that I don't recall it saving my ass during any of the games I played.


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Old Post May 30th, 2012 05:54 PM
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CosmicComet
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Blight

What divine protection? Explain it please. I'm not saying it doesn't exist its just that I don't recall it saving my ass during any of the games I played.


I've never seen you debate in Games VS before, but there's a term called gameplay mechanics you should familiarize yourself with. It's the reason why someone like Dante can die from normal scythe wielding demons in gameplay yet in cutscenes walk through their attacks without even feeling it. It's also why the Master Sword never 'saved your ass' during gameplay. The rest of your post is also rife with gameplay mechanics, mentioning how many arrows it takes to hurt Tir or what not--thats in gameplay, that's not in a cutscene. Nearly all people in RPGs can take more damage in gameplay than they can in actual canon.

Mentioning the HP damage rate of moves for one thing, is also a gameplay mechanic. It means nothing, because what exactly, does '300 hp worth of damage' even translate into towards other universes? The numbers mean completely nothing, it needs actual feats.

Anyway, the Master Sword in canon offers divine protection to Link against a lot of spells and what not. Ask ScreamPaste for more detail, but I will tell you that Ganon has a lot more power than Tir McDohl, A LOT, and he has failed against the Master Sword over and over.

But yeah, the Soul Eater really has no impressive feats. Mostly in gameplay do we see it killing normal enemies and stuff. It might have sucked in a couple of people in cutscenes, but I don't remember them being impressive events.


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Last edited by CosmicComet on May 30th, 2012 at 07:03 PM

Old Post May 30th, 2012 06:55 PM
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Blight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
I've never seen you debate in Games VS before, but there's a term called gameplay mechanics you should familiarize yourself with. It's the reason why someone like Dante can die from normal scythe wielding demons in gameplay yet in cutscenes walk through their attacks without even feeling it. It's also why the Master Sword never 'saved your ass' during gameplay. The rest of your post is also rife with gameplay mechanics, mentioning how many arrows it takes to hurt Tir or what not--thats in gameplay, that's not in a cutscene. Nearly all people in RPGs can take more damage in gameplay than they can in actual canon.


Yep, first time here at the Gameplay Vs. But that's odd because I guess I took a different meaning from

quote:
It does extend to abilities that are clearly seen to be used in the game, and that the character is clearly intended to be able to do - the developers would not give the characters abilities that can be used in gameplay if they didn't intend them to be able to use them.


and

quote:
I will make this very clear: If a character can do something in a game, they can do it in the vs. thread, unless the original post specifically says no


quote:
Mentioning the HP damage rate of moves for one thing, is also a gameplay mechanic. It means nothing, because what exactly, does '300 hp worth of damage' even translate into towards other universes? The numbers mean completely nothing, it needs actual feats.


I only mentioned the HP damage rate when telling what the spells do. I didn't even say that he would use those spells, so I don't know what relevance you think you have me held under. I only mentioned Soul Stealing attacks. So essentially what you're saying is the Soul Eater can do nothing because everything it has done has been used by Gameplay Mechanics?

quote:
Anyway, the Master Sword in canon offers divine protection to Link against a lot of spells and what not. Ask ScreamPaste for more detail, but I will tell you that Ganon has a lot more power than Tir McDohl, A LOT, and he has failed against the Master Sword over and over.


He has Failed against the Master Sword because the Master Sword is what is used to defeat him. It's an Anti-Evil sword from what I can understand and would thus make it nearly impossible for anything evil to defeat him. Another rule caught my eye which was:

quote:
12. Certain characters are known to be omnipotent or invulnerable canonically. Examples of such are Pyron, whose actual limitations are not known, Pyramid Head, who is essentially an incorporeal manifestation of psychological issues, and Ganon, who cannot be defeated without the Master Sword and/or Light Arrows.


Now it may not pertain here but it COULD be relevant. Frankly, I don't care because the Soul Eater isn't evil, it is a part of what makes up the entire Suikoden universe. It's like saying "Love" is evil, or "Struggle" or "Destiny". They are abstracts that can't be quantified, and the Master Sword holds no domain over the magic it represents.



quote:
But yeah, the Soul Eater really has no impressive feats. Mostly in gameplay do we see it killing normal enemies and stuff. It might have sucked in a couple of people in cutscenes, but I don't remember them being impressive events.


Likewise I don't recall Link doing anything overly impressive, either. In some cases, Link wasn't even trained to battle, whereas Tir was raised by the greatest General in Barbossa's Army and was being groomed to become a soldier himself. Again, without the OP commenting and telling exactly which Link this is, we're left up to interpretations and a lot of different characters that aren't all even the same, IMO.


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Old Post May 30th, 2012 07:30 PM
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The Scenario
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Hopefully I can clear some of this up.

Gameplay mechanics are things like damage, hit points, and so on that have no real basis in canon. Abilities used in gameplay (such as the Soul Eater) are fine to use, but without more canon to back them up they're more limited. It's harder to say what they can actually do; affecting every enemy doesn't necessarily translate to canon well. Unless robots have souls in Suikoden verse, I guess. The point being that we like "feats" here, and gameplay is typically considered less important with some exceptions.

Anyway, on to said feats. Link's divine protection is most clearly seen in Twilight Princess. Here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9fpBOA_rHag#t=3m50s

Zant covers Hyrule with Twilight, part of the Twilight Realm, and turns basically everybody into helpless spirits. Soul based effect, essentially. Now, Link has resistance to this thanks to his Triforce of Courage.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wXNfxBRx1Gk#t=2m50s

You can see the Triforce repel a Shadow Beast (less important) and instead of being turned into a spirit, Link becomes a wolf. So, not complete protection, but sort of screws with the normal effects of Twilight. For actual protection, Link needs the Master Sword:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=06Of3KqYd5o#t=25s

The Master Sword can break curses and such, while also providing Link with protection. It removes a solid chunk of Twilight from Link and prevents him from becoming a helpless spirit when he enters Twilight. One thing that I find interesting is that Master Sword also affects Midna, who is not evil but is a Twili. I recall reading somewhere that Soul Eater is cursed?

Aside from this, it's implied that the Master Sword is resistant to magic in A Link to the Past.
http://zs.ffshrine.org/album/link-t...anual-05-06.jpg


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Old Post May 30th, 2012 08:07 PM
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CosmicComet
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Abilities and Gameplay Mechanics are not the same.

If a character gains an ability within the story yet it is not used in story, it is still assumed he has the ability. The ability itself simply cannot be thoroughly quantified without canon usage however.

The Soul Eater may not be intended to be Evil, but neither is the Triforce of Power--which Ganon has. Link's magical resistances isn't simply based on his own universe's qualification of Evil.

Anyway, back to gameplay mechanics. Remember Odessa Silverburg? Remember how she died from pretty much one wound from an imperial soldier in a story scene, protecting that child? If that same imperial soldier hit her during a gameplay battle, she obviously wouldn't have died, would she? No. She just would have taken the set damage rate according to whatever level she was at.
This is what story and gameplay segregation is. And thus an example like Tir only taking a set amount of HP damage from arrows in gameplay, is thus NOT a durability feat whatsoever--its not canon.

As for Link's combat abilities, Link has superhuman strength, reflex, durability feats, whereas Tir has none of that whatsoever. Likewise, Link is literally preternaturally skilled with whatever weapons he gets, and he fights more powerful enemies than Tir has solo. Ganon is far more powerful than the Sorceress Windy or King Barbarossa, and Link has faced him one on one for literally centuries.

The best thing Tir has ever done solo, is best Qwanda Rosman in a duel. Who has no feats whatsoever--other than being a guy strong enough to wear a fairly bulky suit of armor and carry a nice sized axe. Nothing that Link hasn't outdone easily before--see Twilight Princess.


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Old Post May 30th, 2012 08:09 PM
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Blight
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by CosmicComet
Abilities and Gameplay Mechanics are not the same.

If a character gains an ability within the story yet it is not used in story, it is still assumed he has the ability. The ability itself simply cannot be thoroughly quantified without canon usage however.

The Soul Eater may not be intended to be Evil, but neither is the Triforce of Power--which Ganon has. Link's magical resistances isn't simply based on his own universe's qualification of Evil.

Anyway, back to gameplay mechanics. Remember Odessa Silverburg? Remember how she died from pretty much one wound from an imperial soldier in a story scene, protecting that child? If that same imperial soldier hit her during a gameplay battle, she obviously wouldn't have died, would she? No. She just would have taken the set damage rate according to whatever level she was at.
This is what story and gameplay segregation is. And thus an example like Tir only taking a set amount of HP damage from arrows in gameplay, is thus NOT a durability feat whatsoever--its not canon.

As for Link's combat abilities, Link has superhuman strength, reflex, durability feats, whereas Tir has none of that whatsoever. Likewise, Link is literally preternaturally skilled with whatever weapons he gets, and he fights more powerful enemies than Tir has solo. Ganon is far more powerful than the Sorceress Windy or King Barbarossa, and Link has faced him one on one for literally centuries.

The best thing Tir has ever done solo, is best Qwanda Rosman in a duel. Who has no feats whatsoever--other than being a guy strong enough to wear a fairly bulky suit of armor and carry a nice sized axe. Nothing that Link hasn't outdone easily before--see Twilight Princess.
So we are to assume every Link is canon to one another now? Link does not have Superhuman anything without his Items, but I suppose you are right here. I guess really the debate comes down to whether or not the Soul Eater would have an effect on him. You think it won't based on the fact that it has protected him in the past. I think it will based on the fact that it works one literally everything except Bosses (which apparently isn't relevant because, per rules, it's a gameplay mechanic and nothing more). Frankly, based on all the other 27 true runes, I'm inclined to believe that the Soul Eater is, in fact, all powerful due to the fact that it's considered within game to be equal to the Rune of Punishment (As described by the FogShip character), and the Rune of Punishment showed Town destroying feats. ABC Logic? Sure, but it's all I have to really go on. I guess per forum rules, the Soul Eater doesn't match up in some's eyes. My eyes are clearer, however.

Has it been explicitely stated that Link is automatically skilled in whatever weapon he gets?

Also I would debate whether Windy and Barbarossa are weaker than Ganon. I haven't seen much proof either way.


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Old Post May 30th, 2012 08:26 PM
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