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Velen Versus Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden -*What if?*-
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Velen Versus Archimonde, Kil'Jaeden -*What if?*-

If Velen had not seen what he was to become and took the deal that Sargeras offered them, would he have become so powerful that he could defeat both of his companions in battle? As the book states, they were granted limitless powers with the only limitation being their own mind. Velen had for sure the superior mind, so would he have become strong enough to take out both of his brothers?

Then what? Kil'Jaeden has taken the leader role of the Burning Legion post the disappearance of Sargeras. Would Velen had become the man in charge? Would Velen then still have remained loyal to Sargeras? Would his advanced mind perhaps have taken him to a level where he could defy the titan both at cleverness and engagement? How would things have turned out?


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2008 10:40 AM
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Burning thought
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I thought it was always said Kiljaeden had the great mind, where was it said Velen surpassed Kiljaeden?


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2008 10:46 AM
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Velen was the only one that saw the truth in the pact. He doubted the words of Sargeras while none of the other two did. Everything he spoke of turned out to be the truth, while Kil'Jaeden was proved to live in a lie. Sargeras lie. Where was it stated? Might have been in the beginning of RotH. Please look it up and get back to me on that.


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2008 10:49 AM
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so it wasnt actually stated? you made the break down of how Velen looked through it, apprently he was more intelligent? thats not ncesserily true, other reasons could be he was less power hungry, in the end Kiljaeden has become the sole ruler of the Burning legion and has powers beyond most, so to me it seems Velen, fleeing the legion like a coward and hiding amongst Azeroth is a weaker fate and overall weaker option.

Sure at first Kiljaden seeming to be under the rule of Sargeras may be foolish but was it really? not imo, Kiljaeden gained far more power which is what the Eredar want, power, their soceity was based on magic and the highest powers ruled supreme ,Velen simply fled and overall lost powers he could have gained so his mind cannot be assumed "greater", simply perhaps a diffrent point of view, he simply did not belive turning his will over was the right idea.


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2008 10:52 AM
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Velen fled because he feared corruption and not anything else. He knew that the power that they would be granted corrupts. He did not want to follow a path that was not his path to follow. He tried talking Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden out of it, but they had already made up their mind. You speak as if you do not know the story. Have you read the books? And if Kil'Jaeden was so much smarter, how come he was never able to capture Velen? How come he never forsaw the actions Velen took? If he is as smart as you claim him to be, why did he not catch Velen while they were on the same planet? Velen even without the limitless amplifications was capable of outrunning Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden. Escape. If he was not as smart as Kil'Jaeden, how could he have possibly survived even the first year? Or the following ten thousand? Kil'Jaeden was constantly trying to get hold of Velen, but failed over and over again. How can one not as smart make such things take place?


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2008 11:05 AM
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Please do not forget the Naaru involvement in the situation. It was K'ure that gave Velen the opportunity to see the truth in Sargares words. Also the reason Velen survived the conflict against Kil'Jaeden as long as he did was based on two factors, the first is that Kil'Jaeden doesn't directly interact (The incident on Draenor he knew Velen was they yet used his time to convert the orcs into his engine of destruction) the second factor is that whenever Kil'Jaeden draw close with his servants the Naaru would with their ship make sure that the Draenei was preserved as a race. As for Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde vs Velen even with Gifts, I would say Velen loses, Velen has directly stated that even prior to the confrontation Kil'Jaeden was above both him and Archimonde in terms of the arcane.


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Old Post Sep 14th, 2008 01:47 PM
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This fight has a philosophical touch to it. Kil'Jaeden is the superior arcane force of the three, while Archimonde is the brawn and Velen, as always, the wise. While Kil'Jaeden even at original form surpassed Velen in the arcane ways, Velen was always the wisest of the three. The narrator stated this himself. While it is so that the three leaders of the Eredar were to be blessed with limitless power with the one restriction being their own mind, Velen would even though being the one with the widest brain capacity, not necessarily becoming the most powerful one. In fact, considering his main attribute was his superior wisdom rather than actual intellect over Kil'Jaeden, and his resent to violence, he would more likely than not become the least powerful of the three. He would limit himself from powers that he could achieve that Kil'Jaeden and Archimonde both could only dream of having. Simply due to that his strongest weakness in combat is his advanced wisdom.

Velen would likely not be able to stand up against either one of the two in an actual combat encounter even if he had accepted the gift of Sargeras. Merely because he himself would not allow it. Which is of much resemblance to how Yoda preached to Darth Tyranus revolving passing over to the dark side. Yoda knew exactly how powerful he could become if he removed his own restrictions, but did not. After having educated Tyranus in the power of the dark side, him and Darth Tyranus both appreciated things the way they were. A restricted, light side Yoda.


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Last edited by Rapidash on Sep 15th, 2008 at 05:42 PM

Old Post Sep 15th, 2008 05:39 PM
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I will just bring up another "What if?" now. What if this specific restrictment was not applied for Velen. I mean, we are talking about a corruption after all. What if this corruption would remove the stated restrictment of his mind?


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Old Post Sep 15th, 2008 10:01 PM
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Even if Velen would to be corrupted, it is not likely that he would become a more dangerous entity than either Archimonde or Kil'Jaeden. Even though the restriction is suddenly removed, he is still not as creative and rapid in the ways of war and combat as Archimonde and Kil'Jaeden are. He just does not have it in him by nature. Give him a decent amount of millenias in war and the will to destroy utterly, then he might develop powers beyond his two "companions", but the Velen that we know would do no such thing. I imagine that much like how Kil'Jaeden developed primarly powers of deception and Archimonde powers of brawn, Velen would probably develop powers of knowledge and strategy. Velen is just not the warrior type. Never has been and probably never truelly would have been, even if he embraced Sargeras gift.


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:24 AM
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I say Kiljaedan simply because I am too lazy to try to reach any different conclusion.

And Becci, Yoda beat Count Dooku effortlessly in a saber battle on a planet steeped in the Dark Side of the Force, so your analogy sucks. mad


...no expression

stick out tongue


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:29 AM
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Count Dooku tried converting Yoda to the dark side at one point, did he not? When Yoda then showed how dark and powerful he would actually become, Dooku felt regret and fear, praying that the day Yoda goes mean would never come.

Was that not so? Or what did you mean? stick out tongue


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:42 AM
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I mean that Yoda pwned that old man with t3h light side while Dooku was amped by t3h Dark side.

And the Dark Side is not inherently stronger than the Light actually.


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:47 AM
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quote: (post)
Originally posted by Dark-Jaxx
I say Kiljaedan simply because I am too lazy to try to reach any different conclusion.

And Becci, Yoda beat Count Dooku effortlessly in a saber battle on a planet steeped in the Dark Side of the Force, so your analogy sucks. mad


...no expression

stick out tongue


And while dueling Dooku on said planet, he was at the same time using the force to keep the fat biatch from falling to her death outside the window. So he wasn't even fully committed...


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:48 AM
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Yeh yeh, Yoda rocks, we all knew that already. Yoda was implied to become more powerful if he would cut loose and go all dark. No?


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:49 AM
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Yeah. Dooku speculates that were Yoda to ever go dark side he'd be way stronger then Palpatine.


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:50 AM
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Dooku can speculate all he wants, by feats Yoda is not even on the level of character's like Darth Nihilus, let alone Palpatine.

The Dark Side is not stronger than the Light, it is basically the crack cocain of the Force, it is a cheaper high.

...no expression



But seriously, Dark Side is just a cheap way for some to gain strength, it is not inherently more powerful.


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:55 AM
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Yoda and RotS Palpatine were pretty equal. DE Sids... well. That's another story. And I think Dooku made that speculation after Yoda allowed himself to be consumed by the darkside for a split second and he looked at him. Dooku shit himself. laughing out loud


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 01:56 AM
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Well Doku wears dress shoes in battle.

And they were not equal, hence Yoda running away.


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 02:00 AM
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Yoda ran away because he lost his lightsaber and was about to have a clone army on his ass. no expression


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 02:02 AM
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Nah ah.

By his own words, he could not beat Palpatine.

Point is, Palpatine was standing tall, whereas Yoda was crawling away for his life.

He went there to kill Palpatine, and was unable to.


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Old Post Sep 16th, 2008 02:04 AM
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