However, you must go on their accomplishments and feats, and in that, Kun clearly outclasses Sidious. For instance, I can write a story with the main character as Bob and I can say he is supposed to be the most power, but if I make Bob loose to a good person, but not the best (ie Mace), and then have no great feats or shows of power, then the logical conclusion is that Joe, who I may have intended to be weaker, but was able to beat stronger opponents and did far greater things, is stronger. In this situation, my own intention does not matter as much as what actually is shown, it is the same here and it is clearly shown that Kun is stronger than Sidious.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Exar was an exceptional duelling master.
He also was able to freeze the entire (which had jedi that were in the building) with one spell and then rescue his apprentice and kill an extremely powerful jedi master and nobody could do a thing about it. This jedi master was also very similar to Yoda and been training for 600 years, also remember that the jedi master was training during the height or war in the republic so he knew battle better than Yoda did.
The jedi order also sent thousands of jedi to kill Exar. He was able to repel all of them long enough to preserve his spirit for thousands of years.
And Exar did study alot, Vodo-Baas says that Exar is the most powerful student he has ever trained and the most powerful force user of that time, and Vodo was similar to Yoda, he trained lots of jedi over a long period of time, and if Exar was the best, that means something.
Exar also studied alot, he was fascinated by the sith teachings in Vodo's holocron. Exar also learned under the ancient sith, like Freedon Nadd and Marka Ragnos, he would still be very smart. It is also worth noting that the ancient sith said that Exar would be the one to bring about the golden age of the sith and said that he was the Dark Lord of the Sith, over Ulic-Qel Droma.
Exar Kun was also able to destroy the entire massassani race, quite a feat. He drained their life force and used it to prolong his life.
His apprentice, Ulic, was a powerful jedi and dueller in his own right, but Exar was his unquestioned master and the ancient sith said that Kun would be the dark lord, not Ulic, this means that Kun is stronger than Ulic was.
He was also able to hide as a sith in the middle of the jedi stronghold (Ossus) and recruit jedi to become sith, without the jedi even knowing what he was doing, that's got to take some pretty impreesive power. He decived the best jedi in the order, took sith stuff and recruited new allies from the midst of the jedi ranks, lied to the jedi masters, and they couldn't even tell it was going on! Also, this planet (and its sun) were later blown up by Kun so anybody after him would have no knowledge of those things that Exar knew.
Also, he invented his own lightsaber, Exar was the person who invented the double blade lightsaber. He also designed his own unique style of duelling, something that he never tought to anyone and was lost after his defeat. So nobody other than him and Ulic had any idea what to expect from him (everyone else he faced ended up dead)
He is also an amazing dueller, after he decided to try against Vodo (a lightsaber master), Vodo died in around 10 seconds, before that Kun was just toying with him. Toying with him! In the middle of the senate chamber on the same planet as the jedi temple, he could still toy with one of the best duellers in the jedi order and win hands down.
Kun also learned loads of stuff from Ossus, which was later destroyed by him so anyone after him couldn't have learned anything from it, he also used sith holocrons and had the private notes of Naga Sadow, another sith who could blow up a sun. Naga was also a dark lord of the sith from 1000 years before Exar and was Marka Ragnos apprentice and had an amazing grasp of the dark side, Exar learned it all.
Kun was able to walk into the heart of the republic senate, freeze them all, kill their leader and a jedi master, and walk out, nobody could do a thing. This is in the heart of the jedi order! He was also able to kill a beast which is probably very similar to a terentek, or better, with very few problems. Exar was also able to walk into another jedi stronghold (Ossus), kill more jedi, steal the artifacts, and walk out again, unharmed. He was also able to destroy Freedon Nadd with no problems.
Think about how he died, he was faced against 10 000 jedi, and the republic fleet. Under those circumstances, anyone would have died. Exar died sure, but he was able to hold the entire fleet off with the force until he was able to figure out a plan to keep himself alive. Exar was able to kill off an entire race, numbering thousands, to keep himself alive, sure he was killed 4000 years later, but it still took 14 jedi, 12 padawans, Luke and Kuns old master to kill him. Think about it, 2 lightsabers, 12 padawans/knights, 2 jedi masters (including one of the most powerful jedi ever; Luke and the old version of Yoda, Vodo-Baas, he trained lots of jedi, for some reason I think of him like an old Yoda), to kill off Kun's 4000 year old ionized air particles! He must have been near godlike when he was alive.
When Kun walked, the ground shook underneath him from the shear power of the dark side emanating from his body.
Exar did invent his own style of lightsaber combat, the double blade, also, his double blade was different than any other double blade. He was able to move it faster and aim more than with other double blades. Also, since few people had never seen a double bladed sabre, it would throw them off. He can move his lightsaber so quickly that almost anyone he faced would be sliced before he knew what was going on.
Exar wore armor with a cortosis weave in it, allowing him to recieve hits from a lightsaber without doing him damage.
He was also a powerful sith alchemist and created several beasts.
In short, everything he did outclassed Sidious and so from everything at hand, I conclude that he wins
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
It's confusing. He's making characters able to freeze over thousands of people and blow entire starships by raising their hands, yet he says there weaker than the guy who didn't show any extremly powerfull abilities at all (except from DE Sids). There's no logic at all, but really, why would he say it if he didn't mean it? Despite that, I agree.
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However, here you must go by what is shown. You must admit that in the movies, Sidious never demonstrated anything amazing, and in DE, it was good yes, but not the equal of what I posted about Kun. So using logic, you must assume that Kun is superior.
And about lightsnake saying that DE Sidious is actually weaker than RotS Sidious, that is absulute CRAP and is worth less than the tissue that I use to wipe my a** with. A simple analysis of the facts will show that this is wrong. If Sidious was able to kill entire fleets on his own, why did he need the confederacy? He should have been able to destroy the republic sitting in a landspeeder. Also, if he was as good a duellist as is claimed, then why did he not waste Mace and Yoda? Did he suddenly gain a heart and want to play fair? Not it makes no sense and you must go with the facts and the facts say that Sidious got stronger.
How did he get stronger you say, simple, the Kaiburr Crystal, it is stated so I am not sure why you say that he is weaker. It contradicts the facts and simple sense.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
This is actually a close one. Let's assume I can use DE Sidious at this point cin comparison to Kun at his best. An EU character against an EU character because EU is where the big stuff happens
The only powerful thing Kun is ever truly shown to do on his own is the freezing Sith spell. A Sidious fan could counter this by saying Sidious masked himself from the Jedi for a decade when they were vigiliantly hunting for them. Kun had the comfort of not being hunted when he pulled his plans off.
As for blowing up starships by raising their hands, what? There isn't once that an EU character ever does this.
But accomplishments? Sidious takes that hands down: Sidious crushed the 25,000 year old Jedi order and toppled the Republic. Even if it was Ulic's fault, Kun failed miserably at both. The Order crushed him at the end and the Republic is standing strong. Sidious is the only Sith to ever achieve both their goals: Annihilation of the Jedi order and galactic conquest.
Kun was a brilliant alchemist, this is for sure. He created numerous dark side beasts, that's true...however it's worth noting in the entire course of the comic's run, Kun only ever fights two people: Vodo and Sylvar. Vodo is the one he kills, mainly because Vodo is fighting to subdue him. Admittedly he's weaker at the time Sylvar fights him and the fight is inconclusive-Kun gets scarred, that's when it ends. He created the double bladed lightsaber, but that's creativity, not power at play. He didn't create his own dueling style either, Makashi was already around.
It is likewise foolish to say he grew up in an era of war. In Kun's time there hadn't been in a war in 1000 years and Kun was the one to revive the Sith. This is exactly how it was in Yoda's time: 1000 years of peace with the Sith thought dead. Kun was also, most people neglect to mention, a terrible coward. He was screaming and sobbing when the Jedi imprisoned him in Yavin's temple. And the only Jedi who are actually shown to work against him are Tott, Thon, Nomi and Oss Willum.
And the ground shook? That's, umm...news to me...last I checked, the ground was rather stable...
Some of your argument is very faulty: Nadd was no Sith, Sadow abjectly refused to make him one, hence him being killed. Marka Ragnos didn't teach Kun whatsoever. He simply named him dark lord, marked him and left. The Massassi also willingly gave Kun their lives when he used the obelisk Sadow had created for that very purpose.
What Kun did was not in the heart of the Jedi order. He walked in because noone else knew who he was and killed Vodo not as easily as one would say. And he had the entire strength of Mandalore and MAssassi backing him up. Not only that, he failed to freeze the Jedi who proceeded to kill his Massassi. For a moment, Kun was fully afraid when he saw Sylvar in a rage.
Likewise, you exagerrate on Kun's final demise: His spirit was stuck in Yavin, feeding off the darkside there. He was tricked and beaten by padawans for Luke and Vodo to arrive to lend their energy to destroy him. And Kun didn't exactly 'die gracefully.' He never held a fleet off with the Force. He ran off and tried to free his spirit because he couldn't hold them off.
Kun didn't learn anything from Ossus himself. He arrived to take trophies there and Ood bested him. When he killed that beast and Nadd, he was wearing Sadow's gauntlet, which amplifies the darksie quite a bit, being created by the best of the Ancient Sith, before Sadow's birth. He also caught Nadd well off guard when Nadd thought Kun was going to help him.
As for Sidious in DE...unlike Exar, he never uses artifacts or technology. His power is said to be so great, being trapped in flesh diminishes it. He's referred to as a living avatar of the Dark side when he possesses Empajytos Brand. He effortlessly creates force storm that annihilate a fleet and imbues men with the power of full fledged Dark Jedi. He sucks the force energies and life energies out of six billion people on Byss. At one point, just to prove a point to Leia, he reaches out and destroys a rebel ship with no effort. Sidious returns to Korriban later on and is invited by Ragnos' ghost itself to take his place amongst them, Ragnos saying he has earned it as the greatest Sith. Sidious asks to learn if there's any way to escape from his dying body and they suggest Anakin Solo-And before anyone starts, Sidious's last body had been tampered with severely.
Unlike Kun, Sidious could exist outside of flesh and retain his powers and sanity. Very much unlike Kun, Sidious could possess other bodies as well. Sidious scarred the galaxy far worse than Kun in the long run. Sidious, in his full run takes this.
I owe Glentract and Traya full apology. I was stressed and took it to the top, and I'm very sorry
Moreover, before I forget: Lucas didn't want his characters becoming overpowered superheroes. Same reason as why this Qui-Gon guy is training Obi-wan.
Sidious needed the COnfederacy because to reveal himself against the FULL Jedi Order-no push overs there- would be absolute suicide. And he needed a way to take control with people not only accepting it: They'd be demanding it. As for Mace and Yoda: Mace was simply an incredible duelist and Yoda was one of the strongest Jedi masters of all time. his strength in the force is incredible and he's hailed by the Sith themselves as the strongest force the darkness has ever known. Who says Sidious wasn't trying to stall for time with Mace? And Yoda surprised him, he was overconfident-his big, big failing and didn't realize Yoda's power. It wasn't in Kun's nature to enter a scenario where he didn't hold all the cards and the same goes for Sidious. When Kun is finally bested, he was reduced to little more than a sobbing child. Sidious's final words are to curse Luke and the Skywalkers.
As for the Kaiburr crystal: Nowhere, anywhere is Sidious stated to have it....except maybe on Supershadow. The only times the Kaiburr is even mention are in Splinter of the Mind's Eye and in the old Marvel comics.
__________________ Recently Produced and Distributed Young but High-Ranking Political Figure of Royal Ancestry within the Modern American Town Affectionately Referred To as Bel-Air.
IT's also worth noting, KOTOR and its era is considered the retellings of a legend.Hence the anachronisms between the two and some of the movies. Even if Lucas hadn't written them yet-I blame George entirely. And Legends are often exagerrated so take it as you will.
This is actually a close one. Let's assume I can use DE Sidious at this point cin comparison to Kun at his best. An EU character against an EU character because EU is where the big stuff happens
Considering we are in the EU section that is a safe assumption
The only powerful thing Kun is ever truly shown to do on his own is the freezing Sith spell. A Sidious fan could counter this by saying Sidious masked himself from the Jedi for a decade when they were vigiliantly hunting for them. Kun had the comfort of not being hunted when he pulled his plans off.
Yet I can also say that Kun was able to hide himself from the jedi on Ossus, while actively recruiting for the sith. In fact, Kun killed off a powerful jedi master, then when people rushed in to see what happened and they saw Kun holding the sith holocrons and the dead master with a lightsaber slash, they believed Kun when he said that the master died of old age (never mind the scorch marks on him) and that he made Kun a jedi master before he died, and they BELIEVED him. That alone is far better than Sidious hiding from the jedi. As for other Kun feats, how about destroying a beast that was larger than a krayt dragon with just the force, also defeating Ulic in a duel, killing Master Vodo (the grandmaster of the old order, 600+ years old, very similar to Yoda), in under a minute. Along with many other things which I said in my mega-post. Kun did more than Sidious ever did.
As for blowing up starships by raising their hands, what? There isn't once that an EU character ever does this.
Indeed, I am unsure of where you got your idea that I ever said he blew up starships with the force because I never said it. It might help to properly read what your opponent says (and if I do not respond to your response it is because I am going on holiday, will be back soon)
But accomplishments? Sidious takes that hands down: Sidious crushed the 25,000 year old Jedi order and toppled the Republic. Even if it was Ulic's fault, Kun failed miserably at both. The Order crushed him at the end and the Republic is standing strong. Sidious is the only Sith to ever achieve both their goals: Annihilation of the Jedi order and galactic conquest.[
Excuse me, Kun failed miserably? He nearly killed the republic and the jedi and did it by force. This is not a political argument, this is a battle, sure Sidious took over the republic, but he did it by politics, possibly because he knew that he could not do it by force, even though the republic had no military? Sidious may be a better politican than Kun, but again, this is a battle, not a contest to see who can pass the most laws.
[B]Kun was a brilliant alchemist, this is for sure. He created numerous dark side beasts, that's true...however it's worth noting in the entire course of the comic's run, Kun only ever fights two people: Vodo and Sylvar. Vodo is the one he kills, mainly because Vodo is fighting to subdue him. Admittedly he's weaker at the time Sylvar fights him and the fight is inconclusive-Kun gets scarred, that's when it ends. He created the double bladed lightsaber, but that's creativity, not power at play. He didn't create his own dueling style either, Makashi was already around.
I never said he created Makashi, I said he created his own style which was different than all the others. Also, Kun does fight Ulic for sure along with Odan-Urr (I think that is the name, forgive me if I am wrong, either way it is the tree jedi). And Kun kills Odan, while he is on Ossus, the jedi planet, and when people come to see what happened, he is able to convince them that Odan died of old age. That is like Sidious killing off all the jedi that came to face him, yet when Anakin comes running in, Sidious telling Anakin, and Anakin believing, that they died from a heart attack. Kun also beats Ulic, who even with out the force and after not wielding a lightsaber in 20 years was able to beat Sylvar.
It is also very significant that Kun was able to beat Vodo, who like I already said is similar to Yoda, while Sidious could not beat Yoda. As for the creativity thing, that is very important. A large part of a battle is your mind and being able to outsmart your opponent is very important, don’t believe me, ask Obi-Wan. And Kun could likely outsmart Sidious. They guy has not been in any fights for years, his apprentices were either a) busy training on their own, and Sidious was trying to cement his rise to political power (Maul) or b) leading a war (Dooku). He did not have that much time to train. And in his first real battle, he was pathetic. By this I am talking about him vs Mace and co. Sidious’ jump was lame and so slow that I could have slapped him across the face then cut his head off before he even knew what happened. He does not have the experience that Kun does, and that will be a big thing against him.
It is likewise foolish to say he grew up in an era of war. In Kun's time there hadn't been in a war in 1000 years and Kun was the one to revive the Sith. This is exactly how it was in Yoda's time: 1000 years of peace with the Sith thought dead. Kun was also, most people neglect to mention, a terrible coward. He was screaming and sobbing when the Jedi imprisoned him in Yavin's temple. And the only Jedi who are actually shown to work against him are Tott, Thon, Nomi and Oss Willum.
Coward? Might I remind you that he walked into the Senate on Courscant, the place with the jedi temple, freed Ulic, killed his former master, and walked out with nobody even doing a thing about it. That does not represent a coward to me.
What Kun did was not in the heart of the Jedi order. He walked in because no one else knew who he was and killed Vodo not as easily as one would say. And he had the entire strength of Mandalore and MAssassi backing him up. Not only that, he failed to freeze the Jedi who proceeded to kill his Massassi. For a moment, Kun was fully afraid when he saw Sylvar in a rage.
No one knew who he was? He announced it to the entire Senate for crying out loud. Either the jedi are absolute morons or they knew who he was. As for him not killing Vodo as easily as I say. Well it took him what, 2 frames from when he started trying, that is very little time and then Vodo was just a pile of robes. And he felt fear? Where did you did that piece of s*** up?
for Sidious in DE...unlike Exar, he never uses artifacts or technology.
Actually I am pretty sure that he uses a Kaiburr Crystal which increases his power and makes him stronger. So actually he does use things to make him stronger.
He sucks the force energies and life energies out of six billion people on Byss.
And Kun killed off an entire race of Massassi that spanned a planet. Willing or not, that still takes a lot of energy. For instance, if I did not care if you killed me, that does not mean that you can kill me with no energy, you still have to raise a sword/gun and kill me, still takes energy, it just means I don’t fight back.
At one point, just to prove a point to Leia, he reaches out and destroys a rebel ship with no effort. Sidious returns to Korriban later on and is invited by Ragnos' ghost itself to take his place amongst them, Ragnos saying he has earned it as the greatest Sith. Sidious asks to learn if there's any way to escape from his dying body and they suggest Anakin Solo
Yet, if Sidious was so great, then why did he need to ask Ragnos and the ancients for help? Also, Ragnos did tell Kun that he would be the Dark Lord of the Sith, meaning that he too earned a place amongst them. Also, just to get revenge on this one person, Kun destroyed an entire star system. Just to free one person, he stormed Courscant, jedi temple and all.
Unlike Kun, Sidious could exist outside of flesh and retain his powers and sanity. Very much unlike Kun, Sidious could possess other bodies as well. Sidious scarred the galaxy far worse than Kun in the long run. Sidious, in his full run takes this.
Well sure Kun was driven insane, but that was after 4000 years of being alone. We do not know how Sidious would handle that situation so we cannot judge if he would go insane as well or not. Also, Kun did keep his powers, he killed off that one jedi (Gantoris?) with force lighting, ripped Luke’s spirit from his body, possessed the mynocks that came to kill Luke’s body. Well I admit it is not known if he possessed them or not, but either way he used to force to make them go after Luke. Remember that this is after 4000 years in complete solitude and without using his powers. Also, one can safely think that force spirits get weaker with age, thus the reason that Obi-Wan could not hang around longer, why Ragnos could be beaten by a jedi that had only been a jedi for a few months. So if Kun can still do that after 4000 years, then that says for more than anything else.
__________________ >>Antediluvian<< Stop the flood!
Dec 28th, 2005 12:59 AM
http://darthglentract.tripod.com/index.html Go Jawa's!!
