One and three go to Kol, those may have been really weak Sith that he fought but he did kinda own them and there were Stormtroopers there, too, Dooku could likely give him a decent or good fight in 1 and 3, though. 2 is impossible to say as we never see Kol use the Force, so I guess it goes to Dooku by default.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
Yea but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsman in the 25000 year history of the Jedi order and became a better Sith. I'm inclined to say that Dooku could finesse his way thru the saber battle, and if he wins via the force, then i believe he would take all 3. None of which would be pwnage though.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
Yea but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsman in the 25000 year history of the Jedi order and became a better Sith. I'm inclined to say that Dooku could finesse his way thru the saber battle, and if he wins via the force, then i believe he would take all 3. None of which would be pwnage though.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
Yea but Dooku is one of the greatest swordsman in the 25000 year history of the Jedi order and became a better Sith. I'm inclined to say that Dooku could finesse his way thru the saber battle, and if he wins via the force, then i believe he would take all 3. None of which would be pwnage though.
Yeah but being one of the best swordsmen doesn't mean that much, I mean, it does, but it doesn't really put him above Kol, as if he's likely one of the best as well. Before Dooku the greatest saber wielders were Revan, Lord Hoth, Exar Kun (counts as a Jedi, before turning to the Dark Side) and Ulic. Kun and Ulic are uber for Padawans but are still a bit below Dooku, Hoth and Revan are debatable, so yeah, but Kol is above them as well. And judgind by the way he fought like over a dozen Sith at once and killed 7 or more of them, while fighting and killing Stormtroopers, too, well, I don't think Dooku could do all of that quite as easily as Kol did.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
Sorry for the triple post, my computer was lagging...
Now, right you are to an extent DS19, however, I recall this debate happening in another thread where Advent, I believe, pretty much debunked any assumption that those Sith were worth a damn, while still giving Kol his just due. While that feat was impressive (Kol's that is) Dooku has done aLOT of things, some of which are as impressive if not more. He tooled GG who killed how many Jedi, that were arguably more powerful that the fake Sith that Kol fought. Brought Ventress to her knees with a lift of his finger (albeit thats not saber work), kept up with Dooku after being tired, beat Mace as a Jedi, etc... I don't know, I just think dooku may be a step or two ahead of Kol, thus giving him the win.
Proof that Makashi is for saber fighting one on one and not just saber fighting in general?
Tooled Grievous? When was this? LOE states that Dooku was often "hard-pressed to defeat the General." Grievous has killed many Jedi, but not all at once and never as many at once as Kol did.
Dooku kept up with himself?
Mace prior to TPM. The TPM novel stated that Qui-Gon rivaled Mace in saber combat, so that's not extremely impressive, as Kol could have beaten Qui-Gon as well.
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Last edited by darthsith19 on May 12th, 2007 at 02:21 AM
Well, its described as the ultimate refinement in lightsaber-to-lightsaber combat. Note the words in bold are not plurals. One lightsaber vs one lightsaber.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
Does it really matter? Go read the descriptions. The forms that are made for multiple opponents say so in the descriptions. It often says, "opponent" or "lightsaber to lightsaber" (singular) in the notes about the form.
How bout in the CW? Didn't Dooku beat him relatively easy in that?
Yoda, you knew what I meant.
Mace was still one of the best Jedi as far as lightsaber prowess and force ability which is why he was the youngest master to be put on the council (before Anakin), therefore still impressive. Also the fact that Dooku himself still improved over those 13 years and after joining the dark side.
When LOE contradicts the cartoon I generally tend to go with LOE, as the Cartoon often exaggerates the powers of some of the characters. We also don't know how long they were fighting for before Dooku won in the cartoon, the scene cuts to the fight.
Yoda was trying not to kill Dooku. Dooku wasn't that tired, anyways. In Dark Rendezvous Dooku has the dark side powers of Vjun empowering him when he fight Yoda and he is equal to Yoda at best.
But you said that AOTC Kenobi is above Jinn, right? And TPM Mace is about equal with Jinn with blades. Mace could have been put on the council for his wisdom rather than his power. Dooku may have gotten slightly stronger, what makes you say that he got stronger when he turned to the dark side, anyways?
True. But seeing that fighting multiple enemies isnt what Makashi was built for, Dooku would be disadvantaged at figting more than one opponent, as oppose to Kol who (I presume) has a form which could give him the advantage.
Therefore your earlier post saying "I dont think Dooku could do all of that quite as easily as Kol did" would be unfair because Dooku has the natural form disadvantage.
Dooku was tired clearly DS, it says it in the novel, and Dooku clearly took a deep breath after Anakin, and the book describes how he had to work for that, and you always say Maul was tired, he certainly did not look it, even if the novel of something says it.
are you kidding, of course he got stronger when he went Sith, first of the darkside is stonger, certainly for a fight, and he got alot of new powers, and was training w/Sidious.
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
Ox provided it.
But if CW is said to be canon, you have to take it for face value. That honestly sounds like a cop-out, but if they are both canon, and we both choose the opposite source, we'd never resolve this.
Yea, but Yoda was still swinging on him with "killing blows" (sorry ) and could have done so, as I'm sure even though he wasn't trying to kill him, he would be willing to if necessary. Anyways, Dooku was tired from Anakin (whether you want to accept it or not) and still stood toe-to-toe with is former master. If you downplay that feat, Ox will be outside your window tonight with a machete and a plastic Dooku lightsaber from Toys R Us...i know...my screen is still ripped.
Did I say that? Don't recall saying that, but its possible.
"There are two conflicting canon sources for this article, from Labyrinth of Evil and Star Wars: Clone Wars. A cohesive timeline has not yet been devised by Lucasfilm Ltd. Editor discretion is advised."
"Mace Windu was a Korun Jedi Master/Jedi Guardian and one of the last members of the Jedi High Council before the Great Jedi Purge. Windu was often regarded as second only to Grand Master Yoda on the Council, though eight centuries his junior. His wisdom and power were legendary, as were the weight of his words. Mace Windu was widely considered one of the best swordsmen in the Jedi Order due to his creation of Vaapad, the modern seventh form of lightsaber combat. It is said that only Grand Master Yoda and Mace's old friend Dooku could beat him in lightsaber combat."
"At a very early age, Mace learned of his unusual ability to see shatterpoints in the Force and how they would affect all of his future actions as well as the vulnerabilities of his opponents. With these unique abilities, he had glimpses of parts of his future, such as the lightsaber he would eventually build. At the age of fourteen..."
"Prodigiously talented in the Force, Mace passed the trials early and was appointed to the Jedi Council at the age of 28 after his exploits during the Arkanian Revolution where he fought the cyborg Gorm the Dissolver."
As you can see, he had shatter point ability before he was even 14, so Im quite sure than by TPM he was more than proficient with a lightsaber, even without Vaapad. Also note only Yoda and Dooku could (not did) beat him. Dooku is simply a beast with a lightsaber.
Thank you Kiddo for the back up on Dooku being tired. I dont have the book to quote.
And as far as him becoming more powerful as a Sith, look no further than the quote that Escape posts almost daily, "One of the most powerful Jedi inthe order's 25,000 year history...and an even greater Sith."
How can you refute that?
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Thanks to Advent for the Sig!
Last edited by Darth Subjekt on May 12th, 2007 at 03:39 AM
Registered: Oct 2004
Location: On cloud 9 in 7th heaven! I didn't
also;
"Powers and Abilities
Dooku is recognized as being gifted with extraordinary potential in the force, and frequently uses it in combat, throwing large objects such as rocks and pillars at his opponents and at times telekinetically lifting his opponents and hurling them. He is also capable of using Sith lightning, and is a lightsaber champion as the consummate master of Makashi, the only swordsman apart from Yoda traditionally held capable of defeating Mace Windu. As a user of Makashi, his greatest strength is one on one lightsaber to lightsaber combat."
May 11th, 2007 09:30 PM
) and could have done so, as I'm sure even though he wasn't trying to kill him, he would be willing to if necessary. 
