Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Sidious vs. Yoda/Mace- Conclusion/rematch?
I know that this has been probably done a million times already here (forgive my lack of experience. I'm not new to Star Wars, but new on this forum...), but I feel inclinded to post my opinion on the very controversial subject of Sidious vs. Mace and Sidious vs. Yoda- please, feel free to go aheead and debate with me on this argument, and add your opinions, please ^^.
Mace vs. Sidious- I think this is probably easier to conclude than Sidious vs. Yoda, but not the way most people see it likely. It's true, Mace appeared to win the fight, but I personally hold the opinion that Sidious purposefully threw the fight against Mace. Now, to my reasons:
At the beginning, there is the matter of Sidious "lashing out with blinding speed" against the four Jedi Masters who came to confront him... aside from the thing that Sidious pwned two of them before they could move and subsequently beat the third one after him blocking about three of his strikes, I would say that the scene is supposed to give us the first impression as to Sidious' power. Also, there is the matter of confidence here... Sidious was a planner. A mastermind. Naturally, if he would engage in a fight when he was unsure of the outcome, he would not fight at all... now, as Windu himself acknowledged, Sidious has complete control of the courts and the senate. Wouldn't it be simpler, if he could not defeat the jedi masters, to simply come quietly and worm himself out of the situation? As such, by actually lunging at them in that matter, he shows that he's not afraid to get killed.
After pwning the B-Team, Sidious moves on to dueling the man himself- Master Windu, and in the beginning, middle, and towards the end, Sidious' moves are done in an offensive manner, and has shown himself to overpower Windu (note: Windu fights aggressively, and so does Sidious... a good indication of the superiority of one of the combatants in an aggressive vs. aggressive fight is to see who actually has the offense), forcing him back and controlling the duel, as some would say. Moving on, suddenly, after a burst of force, pushing Mace back (I would have said that if the offense continued, Sidious would've gotten through Windu's defenses and down goes the jedi master), Sidious' speed (as clarified by the novel) suddenly dropped, and he stopped fighting as seriously, instead just defending against Windu's blows. Is that due to Windu overpowering Sidious, or due a purposeful bluff? I would say it's the latter- I simply find it odd that someone would be completely dominating a fight, and then suddenly lose power and get thrown back.
Anakin's arrival- either Sidious is one lucky bastard, or there is the thing that he is constantly 'saved' due to being 'lucky' on several occasions- if Sidious had lost thirty seconds before that, he would've been killed by Windu. Thirty seconds later- and Anakin would see his 'friend' trying to kill Master Windu, and the 'weak old man' thing would've been destroyed. Now then, the matter of Sidious suffering a kick to the face, something that seems unnecessary, is many times misunderstood. Some people think that 'letting someone win' is purposefully letting them strike the finishing blow. No, Sidious did not underestimate Mace, he knew that if he fought to a lower extent than his true capacity, someone as skilled as Mace would likely take advantage of that and win. And as the window shattering would provide and opportunity for Mace to relive Sidious of his lightsaber, Sidious knew that at about the time Anakin would come, Windu would've taken advantage of his superior position and would've beaten Sidious.
Sidious vs. Yoda- Overall, this is a much more complicated manner than the previous fight, due to the odd end which some can perceive to be a weird tie. Thus, we have to actually take a look at the FIGHT, rather than it's conclusion. So, a close look at the fight is necessary. Like the previous argument, I would break it down into parts, so as to better clarify my points.
The beginning of the battle is the 'little green friend' thing, Sidious frying Yoda and then taking a flight across the room. Now, this part actually shows Sidious more powerful. Sidious threw lightning at Yoda, and the force of the lightning was so powerful it KNOCKED YODA OUT. Did we ever see lightning doing that? No. Even when he used it against look in Ep 6, when Luke was wreathing with extreme pain, he was not knocked out (if briefly) by its power. I think Sidious could've continued the assault which would've led to Yoda's death, but, unfortunately, Sidious did not do it because of hubris and arrogance... instead of killing Yoda, he chose to gloat and laugh back. Now, Yoda got up, and pushed Sidious; Sidious flew a farther distance, true, but... Sidious got up effortlessly, and I don't remember him showing much pain as he did, simply getting up slowly and locking at Yoda. So yeah; Sidious, although he was probably hurt by the crash, was not hurt nearly as much as Yoda was by the lightning.
One could say Lightning is an intended-kill power, while push is merely means of knocking someone away, however, we've seen pushes capable of ripping someone apart and causing skeletal fragmentations, etc... and I believe that Yoda, the greatest jedi in the Order, would've honed his Force Push to the highest extent, as it was his only offensive weapon. Moving on.
Next came the lightsaber fight... in this, I would have to say that it was a stalemate, although Sidious actually appeared to be dominant, contradictory to common belief. Why is that? Because, Sidious was the one on the offensive, Yoda on the defensive... if you would closely monitor the fight, you would see that specifically in the parts that we saw well (meaning, not the far-away view... although we see Yoda launching two attacks against Sidious then, I doubt that this would compare to the attacks Sidious launched at him), you would see Sidious launching hundreds of attacks and still remaining in the same place, rather than Yoda, who was jumping around like a drunk muppet, attempting to block all of Sidious' attacks and overwhelm him with speed of movement... this already proves that Sidious was the one dominant in the fight. If one would say that the one would blocked all of the attacks was dominant, it would be like saying that Obi-Wan dominated the fight against Anakin. And Obi-Wan has more credibility, since unlike Yoda, he fights with a defensive style, while Yoda's style of choice is completely offensive. As such, Yoda's small size was actually an advantage there, as catching him with a blade would be tougher. I would say Sidious' speed of attacks is greater, but Yoda's movement is better and faster, as characteristic of his style. It's true Yoda ended the saberlocks, but if someone who threw saberlocks was automatically the better combatant, then Anakin would be the best saber duelist in the order.
A lot of people seem to think that Yoda disarmed Sidious. Somehow, I doubt that it was the result, as Yoda, who can move faster than Sidious (at least at the beginning of the fight), would probably catch him and kill him if he was disarmed. Think about; your opponent's weapon is down, he is in front of you... all Yoda needed was a quickly-timed strike and Sidious would've been killed. But that didn't happen, did it? More likely, Sidious understood that defeating Yoda in lightsaber combat would be more difficult than the alternative (they're probably dead equals in lightsaber combat), so he used the high ground to gain a TACTICAL ADVANTAGE. Using a tactical advantage, my friends, does not mean that you can't win without it- it just makes winning easier.
The force fight, later on, was also very similar in their strength... Sidious hurling pods at Yoda was a demonstration of Sidious' immense power and dominancy... the pods were thrown quickly and decisively, using powerful TK skills. Also, it requires SOME power to rip a pod from it's probable extemely strong metal attachment. Keeping them above his head effortlessly, Sidious rained downs pods on poor Yoda, who could dodge them, but, ultimately, I think Sidious' intention was more to demoralize Yoda than kill him... he knew that Yoda was extremely fast and agile, thanks to the force, so it was merely a tactic of destroying Yoda mentally. It didn't work- Yoda grabbed a pod and launched it back at Sidious, into the air, defying gravity... that does not make him superior to Sidious. Sidious hurled down more than one pod efforlessly, ripping them from powerful metal and holding them above his head, a defiance of gravity. Instead of blocking it, Sidious chose to jump, which would be easier. A lot easier.
Now then, taking a moment to check to see where Yoda is, Sidious saw him and launched lightning at him, knocking his saber away. Here comes the force struggle- Sidious was, at first, overpowering Yoda completely and entirely, causing Yoda to grimace in pain... and later, Sidious saw that Yoda recovered and launched the lightning back, gaining ground once again... the incredibly funny expression Sidious made then was of surprise, and fear, as he didn't expect Yoda to regain ground and pull off such a fight... so, the lightning exploded and sent both flying. Yoda was sent flying a lot farther than Sidious was, and although this may be due to his smaller weight, I highly doubt that it would make the difference between simply falling backwards and being hurled halfway across the hall. This meant that more force was generated in Yoda's end, meaning that the ball was ultimately closer to Yoda... indeed, this shows that Sidious' skill is at least equal, if not greater, than Yoda's in force expertise.
So, what do you think would happen in a rematch of Yoda vs. Sidious (on even ground) and Windu vs. Sidious (no Anakin included)? The above is my opinion, and if you disagree, please tell me why ^^.
i disagree with your opinion, but i like the way you state it as your opinion, i will reply in kind: IMO, using all the evidence that you have obviously heard many times (as has most of us here) i choose the opposite, i think Mace won fair and square (kicking a lightsaber out of sidious hand COULD NOT have been planned by sidious.) And i think Yoda would have beaten sidious if he hadn't needed to flee.
You know my reasoning, since you are knowledgeable of the subject, i just interpret the facts different, and that is what this forum really is: opinion. Somebody i'm sure will try to say your opinion doesn't count, but the truth is, no one actually KNOWS what would have happened. There is only so much evidence, and it is contradictory. Bravo on your well-thought out opinion, and i won't try to shake you of it, though i respectfully disagree.
I used to think the same about Mace vs. Sidious... a lot of people did... but then Lucas said "Mace overpowered Sidious" which makes it seem like Mace won fair and square in the saber duel at least.
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Thanks :P. Oh, and could you please direct me to where GL said that 'Mace overpowered Sidious'? Thanks. And... I said Sidious purposefully decreased his skill and created openings, knowing Mace would take them. A kick to the face, chopping the lightsaber in half... it's all the same, really. Just clarification that he didn't decide what the means would be, he just made it happen.
Last edited by Master Crimzon on Apr 23rd, 2008 at 09:31 AM
It was in the audio commentary on the ROTS DVD. If you turn on the audio commenraty and then watch the Mace and Sidious duel, Lucas will talk about it while it's going on and he says that mace overpowered Sidious.
yeah Mace definetely won the saber fight. but it looked like it could have gone either way.
and Lucas also says they added in the part later where Sidious pretends to be weak with his lightning... He thought that was important for Anakins turn to the dark side.. So basically Anakin could justify to himself that was saving this defenceless old man! Lol!
thats also obvious from just watching the scene.. the fact that as soon as Anakin intervenes its clear that there was no shortage of Force Lightning. Im not saying that he would have taken Mace out with FL, just that he was a lot stronger and had a much better chance than he made out.
I actually do believe that Sidious would have won with Force Lightning either way. This if from the novel:
'Palpatine's bolts pushed the amethyst blade back towards Mace's face, and the Jedi Master felt the struggle was beyond Vaapad, Mace had no strength left to fight against his own blade while handling the bolts with the "superconducting loop" feature of Vaapad. At the final moments in the novel, the blade bent so close to Mace's face that the Jedi was choking on ozone. At that moment, the attack ceased'
If Mace was choking on ozone and had "no strength left" when the lightning ceased, as the novel says, and also Palpatine wasn't weak and could have kept going, as Lucas says, then, logically, if he hadn't stopped Mace wouldn't have been able to hold him off for much longer.
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
After this and the rest of the overwhelming evidence, I am forced to conclude that Windu genuinely won the lightsaber fight, although Sidious is probably the better fight, as evidenced (or at last attempted to be evidenced) by this analysis of the fight. Also note that this fight is a lot better in the book, in the movie, it's too slow (albeit very skillful-looking).
Let's analyze the fight, step-by-step:
1. Sidious does the uber cool lunge at Mace and the posse; in about four seconds, the Jedi Masters are down, and while Sidious simultaneously fights with Kit and Mace, Sidious manages to outmaneuver the less-skillful Kit and kill him.
2. Sidious pushes Mace into the office; Mace seems hard-pressed to block the vicious strikes made by Sidious, so he moves into ducking and the rest, while Sidious appears to have the upper hand.
3. At 1:03 of the fight, Sidious ducks from a counter-strike, and appear to have an entirely open shot of stabbing Mace in the chest. Yet he didn't? Why? Because imagine the scene: Anakin comes running into the office, seeing Sidious standing over the dead bodies of four Jedi Masters. What would he think? I'm pretty sure there'll be a fight, and it would be so inconvenient for Sidious to kill the Chosen One. So yeah, at that moment, Sidious purposefully let Windu live, I believe...
4. At this moment, the tides somewhat change, as Mace somehow gains the offensive after performing a grappling move and overpowering Sidious with brute strength, and seems to force Sidious back with a number of blows; at that moment, Sidious turns around, and Mace, noting that Sidious' power is quite overwhelming- in the book, he even admitted to him being incapable of defeating Sidious (Didn't he say something about Vaapad not being able to overcome the Sith Lord?)
5. Windu shatters the window, in an attempt to somehow be able to overwhelm Sidious and take a tactical advantage. Once again, Sidious takes the offensive, and Mace expressions; specifically the one in 1:37; shows an expression of being pushed to the limit... it seemed like Sidious was winning. However, Mace, noting that he was being overwhelmed, took the liberty to deliver a kick to Sidious' face, causing his lightsaber to fly out of the window he conveniently smashes.
6. However, Sidious, knowing he is not in true danger due to the fact that he reasoned Anakin would come- the telepathy, and Mace knowing Anakin to come in the book, also gives off the suggestions that Sidious possibly knew he was coming, too... and so, instead of somehow jumping out of the way and retrieving one of the fallen Jedi's lightsabers, Sidious instead chose to appeal to Anakin as the old, weak man who is barely attempting to defend himself against the oppressive Jedi. The lightning was at its peak, and if Sidious had continued, he would have overwhelmed Mace. This is evidenced by the grunts he was making during the lightning struggle- he was not even directly hit by the lightning- and the book supports the fact that Sidious lost it on purpose.
7. Anakin dumbass does his "NOOOOOO!!!" thing, and we all know what happens.
My conclusion is that Mace managed to exploit a tactical advantage to disarm Sidious, and Sidious could have killed him during that one time in the fight; however, he chose not to, partly because of his hubris and partly because of his need to appear as the weak old man to Anakin.
I used to think that as well that Sidious could have killed Windu in that shot. However some people pointed out to me thats common with on screen sword fights. It gives the climax that the fight could go either way. it might look like Sidious could have stabbed him, but then whose to say Mace couldnt have blocked it. Until he actually stabs him you dnt know.
Just like when Mace disarmed Sidious and it looked like he could have killed Sidious before he started shooting FL.. but again until he actually does stab him we dnt knw if he would have been able to do that.
thanks for that darthsith. i really should read the novelization. iv got it somewhere just never got round to it. dnt have the patience for novels.. prefer the comic books with all the big pictures! Lol!
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Ah... but he moves for the kill about 5 seconds after he actually had the lightsaber pointed to Mace's chest.
Let's see the actual scene: Mace strikes with a slash to Sidious' head. Sidious ducks, spins, and rises, with his lightsaber now pointed directly towards Mace's chest.
Had Sidious moved forward with the thrust, instead of simply doing the "You're ****ed" face and moving towards him, Mace would be defenseless from a strike to the chest. Saying that it's a mistake on the actor's part is stupid; everything is meant to show us something, and I believe that scene was created to show us that Sidious was dominating Mace; indeed, I'm not denying Mace genuinely disarmed Sidious later on, just that Sidious could have killed him during the fight. He simply needed him to be there in order for Anakin to turn to the dark side.
The novel confirms that Sidious sensed the emotional turmoil within Anakin as he awaited in the council chambers; indeed, Sidious, being a master of the human mind and a manipulative genius, KNEW Anakin would come. It was only a question when; also, note that the novel quoted the fact that Sidious decreased his speed when the fight moved on to the ledge; as scene by the film, when his lightsaber strikes became much choppier and less controlled.
Can anyone please get the actual quote from the book, regarding the fight? That'd be a load of help ^_^.
Oh, and just for the record, Sidious' fighting style is actually one that seems perfect in order to move forward and thrust his blade into Mace's chest; Sidious, although a master of all seven forms as confirmed by NG, seems to use Ataru and Juyo in combat, with someone elements of Makashi involved. During his fight with Yoda, Sidious used almost pure Juyo along with Ataru moves, while fighting Mace, he used Ataru combined with some Makashi flourishes, note that the moment after the fight moved into the public office, Sidious performed a very cool, Dooku-like twirl using one hand, a movement that seems very similar to Makashi slashes. This is supported by multiple graceful, one-handed slashes used during the fight. Meanwhile, as implied by his numerous acrobatics and powerful thrusts, Sidious also used Ataru. Meanwhile, fighting against Yoda, Sidious, in the beginning, used some somewhat acrobatic movements, later moving into landing a barrage of unpredictable, extremely fast slashes on the Jedi master (who successfully blocked them), something that seems akin to Juyo, and looking like a more masterful version of how Maul fought Obi-Wan when he had just one saber.
In all three styles, using the body as a weapon along with the strikes in order to generate aggression and fast strikes is important- especially in Ataru- and thus, spinning and stabbing seems like an ideal manuever for Sidious. Why didn't he take it? Either he needed Anakin to see big bad Windu threatening him, or Mace was pulling a feint. I'm personally more inclined to believe in the former.
Think about this: while Sidious has the supposed opening to kill Windu, Windu was moving back, and had his saber raised in his hand, if sidious had tried a saber thrust, and FAILED. he would have been screwed. With Windu moving back, then Sidious would have had to commit everything to the thrust, because he would have to move forward faster than Windu was retreating. If windu was able to step back further than sidious's thrust, or sidestep the attack (something that wouldn't be out the question, and you know it, not a sure thing, but definintly not out of the question) then sidious would have been dead. He would have all his balance on his front foot, and been unable to defend himself from a counter attack. Saber thrusts are bad like that, they are all or nothing. Sidious had too much riding on the attack (like the preservation of the sith) to risk something like that if he believed he could beat windu later in the fight without risking his attack failing.)
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
Try running backwards. Now try running forwards. Which is faster? Running forwards. If Sidious could raise himself and strike Mace with his 'blur of speed' movement, as seen in the novel, he could strike down Mace faster than he could block; his hands were outstretched, and Sidious GAVE UP the opportunity to impale him.
I agree thrusts are bad in a situation when your opponent might block- like when Sidious attempted to stab Mace on the ledge- but extremely effective if your opponent is open, like Mace was.
Now, imagine yourself in Sidious' situation, as you perceive it to be, coming from your argument- he's going to be the dark lord of the sith, and suddenly one of the strongest Jedi- or the strongest, tied with Yoda, depends on what you believe- comes to arrest him, and likely execute him. Sidious decides to engage them in saber combat, and Windu just saw his homies get killed by the 'chancellor', driving him to a supreme rage (note he managed to calm himself later). If Sidious doesn't kill him as soon as he can, Mace will kill him, and all of his plans are destroyed. Hell yeah, if I was in Sidious' position, I'd sure as hell take up the first opportunity if I was not 100% sure I could beat my opponent.
Sidious was, and he was overconfident, I freely admit that. But, now imagine a different scenario; Sidious fights Mace in a free, open plain, no window or anythnig; Sidious throws everything he's got- saber-wise- at Mace, and as we've seen, he came quite close to killing Mace several times, while Mace did not once come CLOSE to striking down Sidious with a lightsaber. As such, if Mace kicked him, a jolt of force lightning and grabbing the saber again will end his attempt to kill the emperor. Disarming won't do, and as Mace did not show any ability to do anything other than that in the fight, I'm fairly confident Sidious could have taken him. Maybe 6/10 times in a fight, they are almost completely equal when it comes to saber skills. It's Sidious' superior mastery of the force, allowing him the superhuman speed with creates his style- as seen in his fight against Yoda- that ultimately makes him Mace's superior, if only by a hair's width.
I have spoken. Feel free to throw off my points ^_^
He only - supposedly came close to killing Mace once.
Sidious wouldn't be able to keep up lightning strong enough to repulse Mace while summoning his lightsaber to him.
Probably. But Mace has Vaapad, and shatterpoint. The first alone puts the fight at an essential standstill, and he second means that eventually Mace will find a weakness, and exploit it.
Superhuman speed isn't at all uncommon to Jedi. Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon actually exhibit it on-screen in TPM, Bane managed to become practically invisible to the eyes of trained Sith, and even Johun - the most pathetic Jedi in history - managed to fight at speeds in excess of what an ordinary person could follow. Then there's Mace himself, in Shatterpoint.
Registered: Apr 2008
Location: Bringing forth the apocalypse
If you look careful in the entire scene- especially at 0:55-1:05- you will notice Sidious' uber twirl almost getting to Mace, who is forced to do a sort of hop-back to barely avoid the attack. Don't get me wrong- I don't mean to say he GOT Mace numerous times- that was obivious only once- but Mace was certainly hard pressed to defend against Sidious' best attacks.
I agree. But Sidious won't use them at the same time- he will distract Mace with lightning, force jump away and retrieve his lightsaber. Doing them both simultaneously will be overkill.
True. But since Sidious did not display numerous weaknesses, Mace might be hard pressed to find it in time before Sidious will eventually crush his defense and kill him. There's plenty left to chance here- or, should we say, the will of the force.
That's true- but Sidious was possibly the most potent user of it. As quoted by Ian McDiarmid, Sidious' lightsaber speed was five hundred times faster than anybody else's. While that was obivious blatant exaggerration on Ian's part, I think that as he spent a good deal of time handing out with NG he would have learned about his character's fighting style, one that involves speed, unpredictability, and simple acrobatics/thrusts. Unlike most Jedi, he uses it to gain speed for his attacks, rather than for his movement- this speed is rivaled possibly only by Yoda, who uses the force to a similar extent.
Johun is the Knight in ROT, right? just to clarify?
and that's pretty funny that mcdiarmid said that. we couldnt even have seen his duels if that was true. I believe a rematch could go either way to be honest, just like the original could have gone either way. I believe the actual fight went Mace's way, and without sidious giving it to him. and if you think about it, your 6/10 times sidious is going to win, pretty much agrees with me. 6/10 are pretty much, it'll go either way odds.
Sidious vs. Yoda/Mace- Conclusion/rematch?
Apr 22nd, 2008 05:10 PM
