Vader takes it. I believe this was discuss before (though long ago so dont know what board thinks of that). I will elaborate if anyone thinks otherwise.
I'd like to hear your reasoning. Vapaad (which Depa Mastered) is a major plus here, and she's amazingly fast/lethal- an entire gunship massacred in about 11 seconds.
I assume that you have given up the force battle for Depa which gives vader a big advantage (while their far away vader dishes more damage out) or we can debate that too if i am deducting wrong. Now on two sabers despite popular belief vader is not that slow (you seem to have knowledge to know that). In Crimzon Empire he is seen having ninja like agility (kicking and such), and in ROVD he is described as having remarkable precognition, having an answer for every lunge and parry despite the fact his opponents were using radically and different styles and kept altering them, he killed buttloads of bounty hunters when looking for a jedi, he has lightsaber resistant armor, Vader uses a unpredictable saber style His style borrowed elements from all techniques of combat, even from the highest, most dangerous level which leaves me to assume he had some knowledge of vaapad, he did take on 5 jedi at the battle of shumari and possibly more also at the conclave of kessel he killed five jedi there too. My argument is basically that vader's force advantage + his being almost better or better at a saber duel will ensure his win although it won't necessaryly be on easy fight.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
I'd love to see some good examples of Vader's Force Mastery overcoming someone of Council-level of Jedi Master-level status.
Ninja agility? Really? Is this ripped from the narration? "And Vader attacked the hapless, nameless Jedi with his ninja like kick!" I have to admit, this made me lol. I'd like some direct examples of Vader's "ninja" agility, if you don't mind. Help build your case here.
Precognition is important, but not so much that it drastically overcomes all opponents. We need to be able to measure this trait. Provide direct examples, if you would. Also, what level of opponents is he fighting? What are the circumstances? Can we substantiate anything about his prowess based on these examples?
There's a few questions which need to be asked before we can accept this idea.
Yeah, but what Jedi can't kill buttloads of bounty hunters? You practically crunch them underfoot on Nar Shadaa. The only bounty hunter worth a damn is Boba Fett, as he's become a Mandalorian demi-god thanks to poor writing. His father, Jango, lost his ass to Obi-Wan Kenobi, and that was with a ship helping him.
... Which didn't prevent Luke from lopping his hand off. Or someone pushing the big red button on the front and suffocating him.
Since when? Is this a rewrite? Last I heard Vader uses an improvised Form V which is modified to fit his overall increased strength and lack of agility.
What kind of Jedi? What were the circumstances? Did he have the advantage of surprise? Experience? A cooler mask? Provide examples of these ass whupping sessions.
I won't say Vader loses without proof, but I would like to see why he'd beat Depa Billaba at her peak. She's easily on par with Mace and the deadliest Jedi in the PT-era besides Yoda and Obi-Wan.
1.Don't think he has ever fought a jedi council member because as far as i know 3 survived and he only killed obi in a duel but he did knock down a lift and tumble over a huge tree on the dark woman (don't know how tough she is considered around this forum), he could force crush tanks, and he could short out lightsabers (holding them of course otherwise it would be suicidal), then there is the Nick Rostu quote of course which i was discussing in another thread but it died on me
2.No silly the ninja part was suppose to make people laugh
it was in crimzon empire that he did it. It wasn't the fact that he beat the guy that i was stressing it was the agility. The fight was one comic page long so not much only shows vader dodging a strike, kicking the guy (in the nuts i think ) and like i said stabbing his blade into the ground and kicking him when spinning 360 degrees around the blade (as in his hands were holding the blade and his feet sticking out ).
3. that's what they said "remarkable foresight" the whole quote went
"Time and again the two Jedi Knights attempted to alter their
style, but Vader had an answer for every lunge, parry, and
riposte. His style borrowed elements from all techniques of
combat, even from the highest, most dangerous levels, and his
moves were crisp and unpredictable. In addition, his
remarkable foresight allowed him to anticipate Forte's and
Kulka's strategies and maneuvers, his blade always one step
ahead of theirs, notwithstanding the two-handed grip he
employed."
also note that he was considered the best pilot in the glaxy which was due to his foresight. His opponents were jedi knights that he was toying with, the circumstances are well just a good old saber duel (ironically they attacked together because of what happen to anakin in AOTC).
4.but i am talking about possibly close to a hundred bounty hunters
5.Roan Shryne tried to target vader's chest too but couldn't get pass his defense, and the armor doesn't make him a winner it only gives depa less points to hit him in
6.this is based off the top quote and didn't jedi have to know (not use) all lightsaber forms to pass their trials?
7.for the battle of shumari their aren't much facts except that he fought at least 5 jedi at one point (easily) its pretty ambigous, as for the conclave he killed them one by one and this was a short while after his transformation.
8.As for a cooler mask how much cooler can vader's mask get
Rise of Darth Vader mentions that he's not a sloth in terms of mobility, agility, and speed. Would he ever be able to sprint as fast as an upper tier Jedi? Doubt it, but he's not slow. Vader's still a beast with the Force, and as any person knows from Path of Destruction, a greater command of the Force is in most cases infinitely greater than skill and technique. Darth Sidious was likely not as skilled as the three Jedi Masters who confronted him with Windu, but he slaughtered them all because his superior command of the Force enabled him to move at greater speeds and physical augmentations. Vader is identified as being familiar (though nothing says he's mastered them) with most of the forms of lightsaber combat and is able to borrow stances, moves, and techniques from all of them to engage Jedi. Since his midichlorian per cell count was not effected after his defeat from Obi-Wan, he is still, on paper, a beast and has enormous potential.
Long story short: it's not so much that he retains much of his former agility, as it is that he is still capable of great battle precognition and the ability to enhance himself with the Force.
Registered: Feb 2005
Location: Hiding from zombies
Another damn rewrite. Those are starting to irritate me.
Since when is his midi-chlorian count not affected now? I realize the idea that his potential was affected by the Obi-Wan Mustafar fight was stretching it to comic-book levels of ridiculousness, but that's been overturned too?
I think it has to do with the fact that midi-chlorians are counted on a per cell basis so losing body parts doesn't change the per cell count. On top of that the old palps said that vader's problems were were psychological and in Death Star it said
"Vader knew all about midi-chlorians, of course—he personally had the highest count per cell ever recorded, more than twenty thousand. "
Just to put in perspective: In RoDV, Palpatine theorizes that Vader's weaknesses are mostly psychological...though his power is forever capped, he is still 80 percent of Palpatine, which is more than a vast majority of anyone else in history can really say....and he does use Djem So, but he also starts incorporating elements of Ataru, Soresu and Makashi to his style.
Also, the 'Ninja' kick...Vader stabs his pike into the ground, jumps and delivers a double kick to his opponent's face.
Sep 22nd, 2008 10:35 PM
) and like i said stabbing his blade into the ground and kicking him when spinning 360 degrees around the blade (as in his hands were holding the blade and his feet sticking out ).
