My problem with comparing Dooku to Sids and how Sids did against Fisto.. is that Sids did that with blinding speed. I've never seen Dooku mentioned with that kinda speed. Thus, I don't think Dooku could dispose of Fisto THAT quickly.
Then, I fee like Kenobi can beat Dooku in Sabers. NOt all the time and maybe not even for a majority. But I do think a majority or some wins is possible. We must remmber, that Kenobi beat Anakin in a sabers fight.. who beat Dooku. Kenobi since becoming a Soresu master has never been bested by Dooku in a sabers portion of a fight. He's always gained an edge with his force powers. Which per the OP, isn't allowed here. So, I certainly believe an in his prime Kenobi can outlast a little past his prime Dooku in a sabers only fight. Afterall, that is what Kenobi does...
I like to think that, the novel notwithstanding, Sidious's blitz of Fisto and crew was a circumstantial element.
While Jedi and Sith do move at Olympic speed, Arhael has made a convincing argument that they don't move at truly superhuman speeds all the time. We see plenty of cases in the films and TV series where gifted but "mundane" fighters hold their own against powerful adepts.
It was probably a burst of speed a la Obi-Wan and Qui-Gon in TPM versus the droidekas.
This is where that line of thinking fails though... Dooku, has NEVER proven to be Kenobi's superior in just Sabers. In the movies and in the TCW's.. He's always gained an Advantage via the force. Not by superior blade work. So, actually it's not a matter of assuming.. it's a fact seen over and over again. You have it the other way my friend.. you're assuming something not in evidence.
We're talking about someone who was able to defeat Anakin in a sabers only fight.. by what.. outlasting him and outmanuevering him. That is exactly what his stlyle does. This mind you, was by canon sources a more powerful Anakin since turning to the DS than the one that beat Dooku. So that is another piece of evidence that contradicts said assumption.
As you pointed out.. The General has given a good account of himself in Sabers vs Mace, Ventress and others. In fact, Mace was only able to defeat The General via the force. In Sabers, Mace couldn't dispose of him and had some very nice comments.. "never felt that kinda of strength in a sword fight" among other things. Kenobi also bested him. True, not in sabers only, but he disarmed him on multiple occasions in sword play. Let's not forget, that Mace per the novel makes it clear how formidable The General is, and tells Kenobi he has a better chance to beat him.. even better han him or yoda.. Even with a hint hyperbole that is some high praise.
Even Padawan kenobi defeated Maul via sabers.. once disarming part of his weapon and another time cutting him in half. Sure, Maul was over confident and taken by surprise, but he still got the job done.
So yes, I do believe Kenobi is in the league of dooku in a sabers on fight. The reason why Yoda would get an advantage over Kenobi isn't because he would tool him ni sabers, but because of his force powers.
Dooku by ROTS wasn't prime anymore.. he looked to be weaker than Yoda, so trying to say he's in that league is a mistake. He believed he was no match for Sids.. he's not in that league. Mace would beat him in sabers for a variety of reasons. So, holding him in that kinda of company isn't quite accurate. STyle make fights. Yeah, I believe a little past his prime Dooku could lose a saber fight to a prime focused Obi Wan
Dooku, on a few occasions, has matched Yoda in sabers. You won't convince me that Kenobi can do the same. Don't get me wrong, I think Kenobi's mastery of Soresu is such that Dooku might have to work quite hard for the win-- but in the end he would win. Again: to say that Kenobi can beat Dooku is to say that Kenobi can beat Yoda. Not happening.
I believe I know the quote you are thinking of... And it had nothing to do with Palpatine's saber-prowess surpassing Dooku's. It had everything to do with Palpatine's overall force powers surpassing Dooku's.
__________________
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:24 PM
When has Dooku matched hiim in sabers though... He merely stalemated him for a brief period of time.. That isn't what I call matching.. When yoda is casually dismissing Dooku's force tk throwing stuff... casual absorbing the lighting and firing it back.. and going "much to learn you still have" then dooku fleeing after a brief saber fight? I don't really call that matching. The other encounter was when dooku was being amped by a DS nexus, and yoda was holding back not wanting to kill Dooku, and again dooku still fled. These aren't what I call putting him in Yoda's league. IMO the only person in Yoda's league in Sids (not counting other expanded stuff just the movies) and even then yoda came acorss looking superior. I don't agree with this notion that Dooku is on par iwth Yoda in sabers as I haven't seen him prove such.. As you admit Dooku and Kenobi could fight for awhile and the fight get broken up.. Thus kenobi would have matched Dooku.. well not really.. there was no conclusion. Lasting a brief period.. isn't imo matching. At least you agree Kenobi could hold his own via sabers and give dooku a good run, in the end, that is what I'm saying. I just believe Kenobi could win
He fought on par with Yoda. Mace Windu has 24 strikes per second in ROTS novel. Now granted that's probably amped up on Sidious' power, but still he had the speed to match Grievous' own 20 strikes per second.
"In the history of the Jedi Order only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master in lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."-Jedi Power Sourcebook.
Yoda is almost undoubtedly faster than Mace. And Dooku could compete with him on neutral ground. I see no reason if he kicks Kenobi away like he did with Anakin, he couldn't dispose of Fisto in those few seconds.
Kenobi's defenses could barely keep up with Grievous, the same Grievous Dooku embarrases whenever they train.
__________________
The North Remembers
Last edited by Lord Stark on Mar 8th, 2013 at 10:45 PM
errr you mean the same Grievous who's strike count is above that of Dooku's? Not sure what point that makes. Point is, Mace believed he was the main for the job.. even more so than he or Yoda. That speaks volumes about the mastery of Kenobi and his style. As I pointed out, WHEN has dooku even looked like Yoda's equal... WHEN did this occur. I don't believe it looked that way in the movie.. so where.. Not on their fight in the nexus.. Yoda also came across as superior and again Dooku fled. This whole notion that Dooku is on par with Yoda really has little backing.
They are on the same level. Yoda dueled him for 30 seconds and still couldn't gain an edge.
That may not seem like a long time, but consider this. Within...ehhh 45-60 seconds Yoda was able to disarm Sidious. That's Mace being humble. If Mace can do 24 strikes per second, that's enough to overload Kenobi's defenses.
Also Nick Gillard and GL consider Mace, Yoda, Sidious, and ROTS Anakin as level 9 duelists. Dooku is considered Mace's equal in everything so he's also undoubtedly level 9. ROTS Kenobi is stated to be level 8. Dooku is Kenobi's superior in sabers.
Can I see the narration that speaks about how fast Dooku can strike per second then?
Ummm that logic doesn't work... Dooku was WAY more experienced than Mace when they sparred, and lest you forget, it's SPARRING.. That has pretty much zero relavance to a real fight. Especially when you're taking away Mace advantages over Dooku i.e. Vaapad and Shatterpoint. That is a no go there. Further, your line of thinking of Mace is a 9.. and there is narration stating Dooku and Mace are equal, so thus he's a 9 doesn't work if you don't do the same for Kenobi. Kenobi actually BEAT Anakin in a LIFE AND DEATH FIGHT. Not a sparring match, not some random narration stating they are equal. In a real fight. So NO dooku isn't level 9 unless Kenobi is.
Red herring, because Anakin was emotionally distraught (force choking his wife, fighting his father figure, having been seen crying moments before.)
Also.
"In the history of the Jedi Order only two opponents ever overcame him in battle. One was Master Yoda, who some said was the Order's true master in lightsaber combat. The other was former Master Dooku, whose own fighting style was archaic, yet stunningly effective."-Jedi Power Sourcebook.
^This says nothing about sparring. Overcame him in battle. The implications here are obvious. Jedi fight to disarm, why would that be much different than a regular duel.
Mace ended his duel with Sidious without a fatality, Dooku also ended his duel with Obi-Wan with minor injuries, and Dooku was able to inflict an injury on Yoda with Yoda still being able to kick his ass after.
Canon sources have also stated Anakin to be stronger than Kenobi. No such reference has ever been made about Windu and Dooku...except in Dooku's favor.
That is your evidence man... REALLY? So tell me then.. WHEN were these battles and why were Dooku, Mace and Yoda all fighting TO THE DEATH or BATTLING as you call it. Please cite these fights and where they occured. Some random HYPERBOLIC statement WITH NO DETAILS isn't evidence. That would be circumstancial evidence at best in a court of law. So, please enlighten me on when these BATTLES took place.
These battles were obviously referring to sparring sessions were are a common thing. Sparring SESSION AREN'T LIFE AND DEATH SITUATIONS. Plus you forgot to factor in that Dooku was much older than Mace and had more experience as well. You must also remember that Mace couldn't use Vaapad or Shatterpoint to the level and degree he could in a no holds barred fight. Doesn't get more circumstancial than that.
You also forgot that THE reason Anakin was a level 9 was because HE TURNED to the DS. Without doing so, he was a level 8 like Kenobi. So no, those things you mentioned didn't deter him from being a level 9. As I've stated Kenobi had just as much confliction about killing what he considered his son.. than a angry Anakin had about killing him. In fact, one could argue, Kenobi would be holding back more.
Point is, there is NO WAY you can conclude Dooku is a level 9.. without concluding Kenobi is a level 9. There is clear evidence to support Kenobi being such.. not Dooku. A random hyperbolic statement isn't close to the same level of evidence as ACTUALLY WINNING A LIFE AND DEATH BATTLE AGAINST A LEVEL 9 FOE
Read the AotC novelization. Dooku was very much portrayed as a peer of Yoda, where saber-play is concerned. Dark Rendezvous also portrays Dooku in a similar light.
Conversely, Kenobi has never once been portrayed remotely close to Yoda's level... Or Dooku's.
Very good point.
__________________
Last edited by Galan007 on Mar 8th, 2013 at 11:29 PM
Mar 8th, 2013 08:17 PM
