__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Let me help out with that; Kyle is the superior duelist - while HoT is the superior Force user. But given Katarn has battled against other Force Powerhouses and won (amped Desann, Jeric) I don't see why he can't circumvent Hero's edge here.
Kyle takes the majority, IMHO.
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Last edited by Deronn Solo on Sep 8th, 2015 at 05:50 AM
Proficient in more forms, defeated 6 "powerful" Dark Jedi where each one was more powerful than the next, BEFORE receiving any worthile Lightsaber training, and gaining substantial power after rekindling his power via the Valley of the Jedi.
Years later, he would plow his way through a horde of Dark Jedi/Reborn/Shadowtroopers en-route to besting an amped Desann, a duelist that crossed blades with Luke Skywalker and lived to tell the tale----someone Luke legit feared to combat. Also, per the writers of the games itself, Kyle grew even more powerful and skilled after the events above.
I don't know about you, but I'm a tad bit more impressed with Kyle's showings, tbh.
Maybe few typos and incoherent statements in there because I'm sleepy and it's 3:00 AM where I am.....bear with me.
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Last edited by Deronn Solo on Sep 8th, 2015 at 08:03 AM
The Knight knows enough forms to cover an offensive, defensive or balanced fighting style. It won't be particularly important here.
And as a mere padawan learner, the Knight was besting dozens upon dozens of Flesh Raiders (including Force-sensitive, saber-wielding ones), with only small mobs of regular ones being able to injure a Jedi Knight already (in fact, three Jedi students only managed to kill one fodder Flesh Raider at the cost of one of their own being seriously wounded).
Then there's Praven, who, before his prime, had already slain Usma, one of the Order's finest swordsmen. Not only did the Knight defeat a later and presumably more skilled version of Praven, but around that time, he also defeated Sadic, who was supposedly already better than Praven before he became a Power Guard which enhanced his physical attributes and calculational power immensely.
Then there's his myriad of accolades placing him as the best duelist of his time, and the fact that he fought through (I believe) dozens of Imperial Guards on a potent dark side nexus, with the likes of Darth Nyriss (who would've benefited from such a nexus) admitting that they'd fall before the might of such a number of Imperial Guards.
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Yeah, this doesn't debunk what I said, really. Covering an offensive style doesn't really debunk Kyle knowing more styles. Atura, Juyo, and Djem So, are all "offensive styles" that incorporate a different methods to reach it's desired results. Just throwing out blanket statements like the above doesn't help your case.
Kyle knows more forms and is the superior technical duelist. He effectively blended together forms from the The Jedi Order, both New and Old, ritualized forms, and the sword training he received as a Imperial Stormtrooper into one unique form into his making and more to the point he's ambidextrous as a duelist. That was my main point all along. Whether it plays a big part in actual dueling, or not is another argument all together.
...wait. Needing a small mob to injure a fodder Jedi isn't really an impressive showing, KEK. Fodder pirates have killed Jedi Knights so I'm not seeing how needing a mob to injure one is as worthwhile as you're making it sound. The same with 3 Jedi trainees. I mean they were just trainees.
Regardless, Kyle stalemating Boba Fett in combat as a merc and before any worthwhile connection to the Force possibly surpasses this feat. Remember; Boba has killed many Jedi during his time - wrecked Rahm Kota, killed a Clone of Starkiller and held his own with Darth Vader. He even taught Jaina all of her tricks that enable her to beat her brother, Darth Caedus. But this isn't even Kyle's most impressive showings as a newbie. His most impressive showings would be defeating ^ Dark Jedi before any training with a Lightsaber besides a few specialty moves from master Qu Rahn.
To delves more into the feat; all of them were considered; all of them were very skilled and powerful foes per canon (New Essential Guide of the Characters) , and they only got more powerful and skilled with each consecutive Dark Jedi he faced, per canon. Sarris, being the culmination of them all being the last of the Dark Jedi and canonically the most skilled. More skilled than even Boc (confirmed to be a master of Niman/Jar'kai) and Maw ( a confirmed master of Juyo's off-shoot Trispzest; and we all know in order to use Juyo you would need to be a high level master in multiple forms can achieve and control).
So Sarris was an extremely skilled opponent through canonical scaling, and Kyle bested her, before receiving any formal lightsaber training, before receiving a noticeable boost via the Valley of the Jedi, and before mastering forms such as Djem So, Shii-Cho, Ataru, Strong Style, Fast Style, Medium Style, and the like. Just the little stuff Qu Rhan Force Ghost taught him (such as the Flowing Water technique) and his Imperial fencing training. I somehow see Kyle's newb showing as superior, to the Hero taking out fodder Flesh raiders. oh, and as an added bonus, Kyle - during this time period - has slaughtered through a horde of Sith Abomination of a potent darkside nexus; an excellent feat of fodder busting.
Praven beating one of the most skilled Swordsman in the Jedi Order is all well and dandy, but that is honestly not far from what we know of Maw, tbh. And we know how that went when Kyle battled him before like 2-3 upgrades in skill and power----you know, when he learned formal lightsaber forms and amped up his raw power at the Valley.
I have my doubts that this is honestly superior to beating someone who struck fear into the heart of Luke Skywalker even after their brief duel. But this time when Kyle bested him, he was extremely amped to ridiculous level when Kyle battled him in the Yavin temple. All of this was after Kyle fought his way through a horde of Reborn/Dark Jedi/Shadowtroopers as well, btw.
Well, Kyle was stated to be one of the best in the NJO. Things is though - the duelist during Kyle's time period > the duelist of the TOR. Someone like Luke Skywalker, Jacen Solo, and his twin sister Jaina Solo Fel some to mind.
Impressive shit, but not a deciding factor in our debate.
Proof of this, pls? Was it at once, or individually? did he face multiple at once? Not that I don't believe you, but some context would certainly help here.
....
I would post more, but the wall of text is already giant enough, LAL.
I like how the TORbots try to pass off Hero as this LIGHTTTSABBBERR PRODIGY, and even a few posters said he's better than Mace Windu or Count Dooku. When his kill count includes such A-list master duelists as Usma and the immortal Warren Sedoru! Such wow, I mean these guys wouldn't be fit to be chopped down by a clunky slow robot man, but the TOR crowd champions these swordsmen as facking comparable to the best of other eras.
That being said I have no idea who wins this, this is a legitimately puzzling one. As Kyle really isn't a luminary of lightsaber skill himself, but I suppose it can be close. At least DCC is making an argument when the TORcrowd is too busy circlejerking each other and being like "MAH BOI HOT IS TEH BEZT".
__________________ "Happiness is a lie. Life is horror. The light is always dying all across the universe. The last star will flicker out someday, when it does, all that remains is shadow. And I will be its king!"'-Amahl Farouk
Sep 8th, 2015 03:31 AM
Thanks Scribble!
