Both as of ROTJ , but this time no one is conflicted and neither is holding back. Vader doesn't know that Luke is his son and Luke doesn't know that Vader is his father. Does anything change?
Canon version for both.
I'm not refering to Vader don't trying to kill Luke. I'm refering to his inner conflict that would weaken him. When force users feel conflicted emotions they tend to be weaker. (Kylo in TFA is the perfect example).It's simply logical that conflicted emotions would hinder Vader, given he draws his power from these emotions. If Luke was able to sense the light within Vader, it means that, even though Vader had a surface of darkness, there were some cracks in that surface. He wasn't as immersed in the dark side. He wouldn't be able to draw strength from self-hatred as easily as he would against someone he didn't feel compassion for, because they are opposing emotions. A part of Vader wanted to destroy Luke and the other wanted to save him. Conflicted hatred would be weaker than pure unadultered hatred.
This is similar to Kylo's situation in TFA where he killed Han, almost killed Finn and tryed to turn Rey to the dark side, but we still know he was hindered by his conflict.
Last edited by Darthadi on Jun 8th, 2020 at 11:30 PM
As mentioned, I'm not opposed to the notion that Vader's conflict may have inhibited his abilities to *some* extent... But I really don't think he was intended to have been operating much below his full power(if at all.)
Vader's initial conflict was essentially: "Should I bring my son before Palpatine and try to turn him toward the dark side, or should I not..?" However, he ultimately did bring Luke to Palpatine, and did try and goad him towards to dark side. So while said conflict may have initially been present on some level, it was still buried very deep beneath the Vader/dark side persona, and didn't really begin to surface until Luke was dying right before his eyes... I mean, even Palpatine only registered it as a "flickering light" within Vader. /shrug
It's not at all comparable to Kylo after he killed Han. In that case it was outright stated that Kylo was an emotional and spiritual trainwreck afterward.
Didn't the Rebels bts stuff say at some point that Vader at his peak was Rebels until he discovered Luke was alive because it opened up a light in him or am I misremembering?
I mean Vader as of ROTJ I'd consider 'weakened' regardless of intent to kill because of that spark of light. I'd think Rebels/ANH Vader defeats ROTJ Luke in a hard-fought battle though.
Even in ESB, Vader's goal was for Luke to embrace the dark side, help him overthrow Palpatine, and rule the galaxy with him. So I'd say that he was still fully enveloped by the dark side at that point.
It was only in RotJ that you could really argue whether or not Vader's conflict was inhibiting his overall abilities -- but even then, I don't think he was meant to be significantly hindered at all(for reasons I mentioned above.)
Canon indicates that Luke was just legitimately on his level by that point.
Well, Vader's conflict was strong enough that Luke felt it during the figth. ("your thoughts betray you, Father. I feel the good in you, the conflict")
Vader deciding to bring Luke before Palpatine doesn't mean he got rid of his conflict, it only means that his dark side emotions were still stronger than the light side in him (hence why he didn't became a jedi again yet), but the conflict was still there and this would still make him weaker than if he was 100% commited to the dark side.
Of course, this doesn't mean that he became fodder, he was obviously still very powerful.
Right. The conflict in Vader was obviously present(not denying that.) I'm just saying that I don't think the intent in canon was for it to have gimped Vader's abilities down to the point where Luke could match him. I think Vader was still meant to be operating at(or very near) his full power, but Luke's own power had simply grown to the point where he was capable of matching his father.
My point with Kylo was that while on the surface he still seemed evil we know his conflict greatly weakened him. I'm not saying that Vader was as hindered as Kylo was, but the fact that he defended Sheev and tried to goad Luke to the dark side doesn't mean his conflict was no longer a factor, especially when we have Luke explicitly sensing the conflict during the fight.
Well, this debate is mostly speculation and guesswork and we won't get a definitive answer from Disney anytime soon (maybe in the new comics).
Luke growing that fast in power is kind of weird though, especially with his limited training. I guess that as much as we would like to find an IU reason for this, the real reason is that back in 1983 they didn't cared that much if it made sense.
Last edited by Darthadi on Jun 9th, 2020 at 12:47 AM
Yeah, all we can really do at this point is speculate.
Hopefully the new comic series' will flesh out Luke's inextricable growth between ESB and RotJ, and should also give a bit more detail on Vader's motivations and whatnot during the same era.
Jun 8th, 2020 09:39 PM
